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Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
12-28-2013, 01:21 PM
  #51
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
In 89-90 Francis outscored Gilmour 101-91 while playing with Hartford while Gilmour was playing for the defending Cup champions in Calgary. And considering who they played for, Francis's +13 was much more impressive than Gilmour's +20.
And I'm not talking about "who had a better season", I'm talking about who was actually considered a better player.

Henrik Sedin apparently had a better season than Sidney Crosby, but no one actually thought he was a better player.

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12-28-2013, 02:22 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
And I'm not talking about "who had a better season", I'm talking about who was actually considered a better player.

Henrik Sedin apparently had a better season than Sidney Crosby, but no one actually thought he was a better player.
Henrik Sedin, yeah, he's a very similar player to Oates, who's up now. But I suspect we wont see Sedin on the list for a while. I think both led the league in assists three times, became PPG players in the NHL first around 26 years of age, played a softish perimeter game, and never won a Cup. Throw in Thornton in that group.

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12-28-2013, 02:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Henrik Sedin, yeah, he's a very similar player to Oates, who's up now. But I suspect we wont see Sedin on the list for a while. I think both led the league in assists three times, became PPG players in the NHL first around 26 years of age, played a softish perimeter game, and never won a Cup. Throw in Thornton in that group.
Thornton was more dominant than either of them (1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 8 in pts: 3, 3, 3, 7, 10, 10, 10: 1, 4, 7) and at this point has Oates' longevity, which Sedin doesn't touch.

We won't see Sedin for a while, for good reason.

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12-28-2013, 02:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
We won't see Sedin for a while, for good reason.
I kind of agree on Sedin, but then why are Oates here? What makes him so much better? And Oates played in the late 80s early 90s and with Brett Hull. That's not trivial to raw numbers.

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12-28-2013, 03:03 PM
  #55
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I kind of agree on Sedin, but then why are Oates here? What makes him so much better? And Oates played in the late 80s early 90s and with Brett Hull. That's not trivial to raw numbers.
Oates' 7yr weighted vs.X score is much better than Sedin's, and I think he also has a small edge in two-way play. As far as Hull...Oates' best season wasn't even with Hull, and he has several examples of wingers having career years playing alongside him. Hull and Oates were a great pairing that helped each other some, but both were great on their own and neither was carried by the other.

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12-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #56
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I kind of agree on Sedin, but then why are Oates here? What makes him so much better? And Oates played in the late 80s early 90s and with Brett Hull. That's not trivial to raw numbers.
Oates was a top-10 scorer multiple times without Hull and many other players had their best seasons with him. I'd say Henrik had more of a career-long advantage considering he's spent 9 seasons with a mostly-elite level LW.

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12-28-2013, 03:45 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
And I'm not talking about "who had a better season", I'm talking about who was actually considered a better player.

Henrik Sedin apparently had a better season than Sidney Crosby, but no one actually thought he was a better player.
Francis was very highly regarded.

You don't get the nickname "Franchise" for nothing.

And as much as everyone here is quick to pull him down for being a lesser offensive player and playing second fiddle to Lemieux & Jagr at various points in his career, Francis was a vital part of the Cup successes in Pittsburgh.

Mostly for the things that don't show up on the stats sheet: leadership, defensive awareness, faceoffs etc.

And you all know how highly I do regard Gilmour so keep that in mind when I have said all this..

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12-28-2013, 03:48 PM
  #58
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Francis was very highly regarded.

You don't get the nickname "Franchise" for nothing.
Let's face it, if your franchise is hartford it's not exactly the same thing as if it's in another city.

Plus he was there a long time.

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And as much as everyone here is quick to pull him down for being a lesser offensive player and playing second fiddle to Lemieux & Jagr at various points in his career, Francis was a vital part of the Cup successes in Pittsburgh.
no doubt.

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Mostly for the things that don't show up on the stats sheet: leadership, defensive awareness, faceoffs etc.
sounds kinda like....

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12-28-2013, 04:32 PM
  #59
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Keon's competition level was very low !?!?
Yes in the sense that teh expansion teams were at a disadvantage and he was on an 06 team, his scoring totals are really lacking given the context of the elague then.

The expansion is followed by the 70's were the difference between weak and poor teams is vast.

He had competition at center over his career but basically very little from non Canadian sources until he hit the WHA and it's hard to gauge how he stacks then because he was aging so saying he was worse than Ftorek isn't really fair given their ages is it?

Then again guys like Jean, Henri and Stan were aging as well when Dave was in his peak.

Like I said let's see how he stacks up to Feds, Francis and Gilmour all 4 being similar type of players.

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12-28-2013, 04:37 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
Lindrps was amazing no doubt, but the injuries really hurt him (no pun intended) in rankings like this. If it wasn't for injuries, he would be on the list already, maybe even top 20
sure they hurt him but he still plays in around 80% of his teams games over 7 years and depending how one treats the previous year before the one in the NHL, that's a really dominant peak.

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12-28-2013, 05:26 PM
  #61
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I know it does not mean a lot of you but Scotty Bowman has Dave Keon is his top 20 players of all time and he is in THN top 100 just sayin.Stats are important but you had to seen him and had talked to his teamates and opposing players.I have him in my top 60 and my top 15 centerman
Scotty also has Trottier 60 something.

It's a really weird list and frankly if someone put out Scotty's list and called it say my list hardyvan123 cries of how horrible it is would fill up pages and pages here.

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12-28-2013, 05:34 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post


and what was the case against him, exactly?
Not that great in the playoffs and a lower peak, never the top dog on his team really, I had him in my top 8 but think he went in too early, other guys with the best player in the world tag still up before him



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top-20? Try top-10!


ok, let me start by asking this. Can anyone make a strong case for oates or Francis over Gilmour? I personally do not see it.

other preliminary thoughts:
Fedorov = Gilmour > Francis > Oates
Stewart gets in now
Abel > Delvecchio

other than that, what else?

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12-28-2013, 05:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
the three seasons he was top-5 in hart voting and top-10 in NHL scoring: 1987, 1993, 1994.
Gilmour was actually a minus player in 87.

Perhaps the year Francis led the league in +/- (95) or his 119 point +25 season (96) were better.

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12-28-2013, 05:42 PM
  #64
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The difference 123 is that Scotty Bowman is the winningest coach of all time wons cups with 3 clubs 4 if you include Chicago.He has been involved in the game since the 50s when he was a star junior player and later was hired by Frank Selke.Guess what he has Serge Savard and Brad Park ahead of Larry Robinson.You think he knows a little more than you and I

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12-28-2013, 05:42 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
And I'm not talking about "who had a better season", I'm talking about who was actually considered a better player.

Henrik Sedin apparently had a better season than Sidney Crosby, but no one actually thought he was a better player.
I would say after Gilmour's huge year in 94, he was not as good a player, nor was he considered as good a player as Ron Francis.

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12-28-2013, 05:49 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Gilmour was actually a minus player in 87.

Perhaps the year Francis led the league in +/- (95) or his 119 point +25 season (96) were better.
No, they weren't.

Are you seriously using +/- as a way to judge who had a better season? Gilmour was considered so good defensively by that point, that he made Team Canada as a checker that fall. Francis' +/- skyrocketed when paired with Jagr; surely you noticed that.

At least make an argument you believe yourself! You can't actually believe that a season where a player earned 5th in MVP voting could be inferior to a season where a player rode the coattails of a top-2 scorer. Francis received ZERO hart votes those two seasons. Zero.

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12-28-2013, 05:49 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I would say after Gilmour's huge year in 94, he was not as good a player, nor was he considered as good a player as Ron Francis.
Then you underestimate the impact of Jaromir Jagr.

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12-28-2013, 06:43 PM
  #68
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Age

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes in the sense that teh expansion teams were at a disadvantage and he was on an 06 team, his scoring totals are really lacking given the context of the elague then.

The expansion is followed by the 70's were the difference between weak and poor teams is vast.

He had competition at center over his career but basically very little from non Canadian sources until he hit the WHA and it's hard to gauge how he stacks then because he was aging so saying he was worse than Ftorek isn't really fair given their ages is it?

Then again guys like Jean, Henri and Stan were aging as well when Dave was in his peak.

Like I said let's see how he stacks up to Feds, Francis and Gilmour all 4 being similar type of players.
Minor detail - Dave Keon, March 22, 1940 is older than Stan Mikita, May 20, 1940.

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12-28-2013, 08:00 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Then you underestimate the impact of Jaromir Jagr.
You constantly and vastly overestimate it.

Also, I'll take Francis' 1992 playoffs over Gilmour's 1989 any day of the week, so there's really just top three playoffs for Gilmour.

Gilmour has the playoff peak, clearly. He has the regular season peak, too. But he's also leagues behind in career value and consistency in both.

Francis > Gimour = Fedorov = Lindros

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12-28-2013, 08:05 PM
  #70
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You constantly and vastly overestimate it.
OK, thank you, Whalers and Hurricanes fan...

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Also, I'll take Francis' 1992 playoffs over Gilmour's 1989 any day of the week, so there's really just top three playoffs for Gilmour.
why?

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Gilmour has the playoff peak, clearly. He has the regular season peak, too. But he's also leagues behind in career value and consistency in both.
Once we get to approximately 10th-best seasons, Francis starts to pull away. But does that really matter? The peak difference is not small.

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12-28-2013, 08:07 PM
  #71
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No, they weren't.

Are you seriously using +/- as a way to judge who had a better season? Gilmour was considered so good defensively by that point, that he made Team Canada as a checker that fall. Francis' +/- skyrocketed when paired with Jagr; surely you noticed that.

At least make an argument you believe yourself! You can't actually believe that a season where a player earned 5th in MVP voting could be inferior to a season where a player rode the coattails of a top-2 scorer. Francis received ZERO hart votes those two seasons. Zero.
If a player was voted top 5 for the Hart with a minus rating today everybody on this site would go wild. Gilmour's minus that season wasn't even good compared to his teammates. Whereas Francis's was not only the best on his team but the best in the league.

And, believe it or not, I do believe my own argument. You seem to be underestimating Francis tremendously. I don't think I am underestimating Gilmour. You asked for an argument for Francis over Gilmour as if there wasn't one. Well, I'm giving you one.

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12-28-2013, 08:24 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
OK, thank you, Whalers and Hurricanes fan...
You're welcome, Leafs fan

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why?
Francis led the playoffs in assists, and was much closer to the two players ahead of him in his team's scoring than Gilmour was to the two ahead of him - and he did that playing on second line, while Gilmour was outscored by a generally unimpressive teammate and by a D-man.


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Once we get to approximately 10th-best seasons, Francis starts to pull away. But does that really matter? The peak difference is not small.
Brutal hyperbole, and it's like ~5th season or so, but we've been over this numerous times. You seem to hold an irrational belief that Francis would score at AHL pace during the Jagr years without Jagr or something. By your logic, Jari Kurri was an abysmal player far below the likes of Dustin Brown or whatever.

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12-28-2013, 08:56 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
If a player was voted top 5 for the Hart with a minus rating today everybody on this site would go wild. Gilmour's minus that season wasn't even good compared to his teammates. Whereas Francis's was not only the best on his team but the best in the league.

And, believe it or not, I do believe my own argument. You seem to be underestimating Francis tremendously. I don't think I am underestimating Gilmour. You asked for an argument for Francis over Gilmour as if there wasn't one. Well, I'm giving you one.
I don't even know why I'm entertaining a plus minus fueled argument, but yes, gilmour's rating was very good on that team.

It's almost like watching him play they determined that he was that good...

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12-28-2013, 08:58 PM
  #74
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You're welcome, Leafs fan


Francis led the playoffs in assists, and was much closer to the two players ahead of him in his team's scoring than Gilmour was to the two ahead of him - and he did that playing on second line, while Gilmour was outscored by a generally unimpressive teammate and by a D-man.



Brutal hyperbole, and it's like ~5th season or so, but we've been over this numerous times. You seem to hold an irrational belief that Francis would score at AHL pace during the Jagr years without Jagr or something. By your logic, Jari Kurri was an abysmal player far below the likes of Dustin Brown or whatever.
You're close... I think that in all likelihood he would have continued to be about 10th to 20th in league scoring with 1990 remaining his rather weak peak season... And yes, that makes a big difference, that's Adam oates minus offense plus defense.

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12-28-2013, 09:07 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't even know why I'm entertaining a plus minus fueled argument, but yes, gilmour's rating was very good on that team.

It's almost like watching him play they determined that he was that good...
Yeah, only 9 of his teammates had a better plus/minus.

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