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Female Marines Not Required to Meet Physical Fitness Standard

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Old
01-04-2014, 05:08 PM
  #126
Doctor Drej
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Originally Posted by Nightslyr View Post
Chin-ups have no bearing on whether anyone - male or female - can be an effective soldier. If you think otherwise, you're an idiot. Full stop.

A far better gauge of battlefield ability would be to put recruits through an obstacle course analogue that requires various kinds of common movements/activities that a soldier in the field would have to undertake. That means wearing gear, running, walking, jogging, crawling in it. Kicking in doors, climbing over things, rappelling down things, clearing rooms/streets of hostiles with simunitions, etc. All of which could be scaled according to the particular rank/specialty of the people being tested (an infantryman would have different requirements than a cook).

Maybe the military does this already, I don't know. If they don't, they should, since that's a far better way to gauge battlefield readiness than a series of gym exercises.
that is basic every day training for a non-deployed infantry unit.

as far as the correlation for pull ups/strength, thats not the point. it is the notion that why should they (females) be held to a different standard when everyone is screaming for equality for the same positions that males hold in the military? i would have no qualms with a female in the infantry if she could hold her own on everything that you are required to do. its not just pull ups, females are notorious for not being able to keep with the males in the marines. hikes, runs, training exercises..etc. so if they can't do three pullups (the maximum for perfect score for males is 20, when the max is 8 for females...) why should they be in combat if they can't even do the simplest of physical exercises? it doesn't boil over well for unit cohesion. it needs to be same standard for males and females across the board. you don't meet them? tough ****, go sit behind a desk.

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01-04-2014, 05:47 PM
  #127
Vyacheslav
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If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't care if the "women standards" applied the same to men. The point is not to leave women out of the infantry just because they can't do x number of pull ups, when x pull ups is not a requirement for frighting. If they can do infantry then they can do infantry, if not then they can work in the office or wherever.

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01-04-2014, 07:32 PM
  #128
Doctor Drej
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Originally Posted by Vyacheslav View Post
If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't care if the "women standards" applied the same to men. The point is not to leave women out of the infantry just because they can't do x number of pull ups, when x pull ups is not a requirement for frighting. If they can do infantry then they can do infantry, if not then they can work in the office or wherever.
thats not the reason either. recently, two females failed to complete the infantry officer course. and IIRC only 4 out 8(?) passed the regular 2 month long infantry training for enlisted. so far, they can't even pass the basic courses.

its the fear that standards may continue to be lowered for the sake of PC-ness, instead of actual fitness and readiness.

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01-04-2014, 08:28 PM
  #129
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Meh. How much work is it to operate a drone?

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01-04-2014, 10:37 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
As far as I can tell, the pullup test is the only test being changed. Then again, CNS news is written and edited by retards so the original article could be completely wrong.

There's pretty much no correlation between how many pullups you can do and how much weight you can drag. They're completely different movements utilizing mostly different muscles.

Again, pullups are a piss poor measure of strength, especially strength in the way you're describing it. But don't worry, you were a Marine so you know everything.
Yes, he kind of ****ing does know more than you on this topic. Show some respect instead of being a dismissive twit. The efficacy or necessity of the test isn't even the issue here: it's the fact that they are promoting equality while holding males and females to different standards.

And as already addressed, infantry units already do all of the aforementioned suggested things from another poster in addition to the standard physical exercises. The latter is to keep the group mentally and physically in shape, the combat-related exercises are to simulate battle situations to acclimate recruits to potential future combat situations.

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01-04-2014, 10:40 PM
  #131
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I don't know how you came to that conclusion since he didn't refute anything I said.

But by all means keep white knighting him.

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01-04-2014, 10:42 PM
  #132
JaysCyYoung
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Yes, in a topic where several posters are outright white knighting for women they don't even know, having no problems with applying inferior military standards for them compared to men, I'm the one white knighting because I believe a Marine veteran knows more about the Marines than you do.

Gotcha.

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01-04-2014, 10:43 PM
  #133
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Yeah, basically. I'm sorry that I'm not groveling at his feet because he was a soldier.

That doesn't make him right, either.

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01-04-2014, 10:44 PM
  #134
JaysCyYoung
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He wasn't a soldier. If you're an American and don't even know the difference...

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01-04-2014, 10:48 PM
  #135
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Yawn. Like I'm going to get dragged into a semantics argument with some worthless pedant.

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01-05-2014, 08:39 AM
  #136
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Yes, in a topic where several posters are outright white knighting for women they don't even know, having no problems with applying inferior military standards for them compared to men, I'm the one white knighting because I believe a Marine veteran knows more about the Marines than you do.

Gotcha.
So because one Marine veterans feels a certain way, that means that he's right and that all Marine veterans feel exactly the same way.

Gotcha.

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01-05-2014, 09:14 AM
  #137
JaysCyYoung
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You don't think people should have equal standards for job applications and that they should be separated based on factors like sex?

Yikes.

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01-05-2014, 10:01 AM
  #138
Ilkka Sinisalo
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You think that the ability to do three pull ups is an essential to being a United States Marine?

Yikes.

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01-05-2014, 10:11 AM
  #139
Led Zappa
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
You don't think people should have equal standards for job applications and that they should be separated based on factors like sex?

Yikes.
I think the Marines work for a large organization with many jobs and like a large organization in the private sector I don't think the person who's wrenching all day needs a PHD etc, etc, etc...

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01-05-2014, 10:35 AM
  #140
JaysCyYoung
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
You think that the ability to do three pull ups is an essential to being a United States Marine?

Yikes.
That's not the argument here (although I suspect you realize this). Do try to keep up.

And stop repeating the last thing I say. It makes you look like a child.

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01-05-2014, 10:37 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Vyacheslav View Post
I'm not even going so far as to say they're useless, but is it really so important that someone who is willing and otherwise able to be a soldier is not allowed to be because of it?
Since it is so ridiculously easy to accomplish by anyone with an ounce of guts and determination the answer to your question is yes.

Legit LOL at those who think the strength required to do a few pullups is not useful to a soldier.

The lengths some of you couch bound super intellectuals will go to defend your half baked opinions is comical.

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01-05-2014, 10:39 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I think the Marines work for a large organization with many jobs and like a large organization in the private sector I don't think the person who's wrenching all day needs a PHD etc, etc, etc...
This is a fair enough observation, but the problem is that every Marine regardless of occupation has always been required to be a competent infantry option ("every Marine a rifleman), which is part of the Corps ethos.

If there was an organizational movement towards more specialization and therefore a different set of standards applied to different trades that would probably be different. But until they drop the creed of requiring every recruit to be a good infantry option that's not going to happen, nor should it. You need to have the same standards across the board, regardless of whether one thinks that pull-ups are silly or not.

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01-05-2014, 11:09 AM
  #143
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I'm ok with the combat-readiness requirements for all Marines; most of their non-com support is provided by the Navy. My opinion is different for the other branches were non-com positions outnumber combat positions, but I don't know what their requirements are.

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01-05-2014, 11:37 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Vyacheslav View Post
If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't care if the "women standards" applied the same to men. The point is not to leave women out of the infantry just because they can't do x number of pull ups, when x pull ups is not a requirement for frighting. If they can do infantry then they can do infantry, if not then they can work in the office or wherever.
WE SHOULD leave women out of frontline infantry because there's nothing they can do that men can't do much, MUCH better.

Its pretty much pointless to have women in infantry other than for equality and political correctness sake. Other than that this is nothing more than affirmative action where it shouldn't happen. IE get the best people for the job and clearly women are not the best qualified for infantry simply because of their physical stature.

Why can't we simply acknowledge that the vast majority of women simply can't hack it and instead of shoe horning them into a position that they can't perform effectively in, find other positions that they are more capable of doing well in? Can they be frontline fighter pilots? Sure. Attack helicopter pilots? Fine as well. But a frontline soldier? HELL NO.

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01-05-2014, 11:58 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
He wasn't a soldier. If you're an American and don't even know the difference...
OK, now I'm confused. Aren't Marines soldiers?

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01-05-2014, 12:02 PM
  #146
JaysCyYoung
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No, they are Marines. You'd get punched in the face if you called a Marine a soldier, both in the U.S. and the U.K. They have a huge, huge rivalry with the Army in both countries. They're proud to be better than the latter and do more with less. It's part of their identity.

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01-05-2014, 12:16 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
No, they are Marines. You'd get punched in the face if you called a Marine a soldier, both in the U.S. and the U.K. They have a huge, huge rivalry with the Army in both countries. They're proud to be better than the latter and do more with less. It's part of their identity.
Their personal feelings aside, that's all semantics to non-military people.

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01-05-2014, 12:26 PM
  #148
JaysCyYoung
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It really has nothing to do with semantics. They are not soldiers. That's like stating that a defenceman and a forward are the same thing.

The only thing they have in common is that they're both hockey players; they play different positions and have different roles, different expectations, and different ways of playing the game. So it goes with the difference between the various branches of the military: they are different roles specializing in different tasks.

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01-05-2014, 12:34 PM
  #149
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Wouldn't you agree that most non-hockey people would use the term 'hockey player' instead of either forward or defenseman?

I'm not saying you're wrong - in fact, you're right - but it seems disingenuous to act surprised when a non-military man uses "soldier" as a generic term for armed forces members.

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01-05-2014, 12:37 PM
  #150
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Why should we defend the traditions of a branch of military who's personnel would "punch you in the face" for a pretty forgivable choice of terms?

I'd be afraid to know what they'd do if I asked to see their "hat".

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