HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bo Horvat - Part II

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-31-2013, 12:15 PM
  #101
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Legwand was also drafted as a big scorer rather than a two-way player. He developed into more of a two-way player because he never became that high-end offensive player he was expected to be.

I don't know how any of Weiss (one-way scorer, undersized), Brule (undersized), Sheppard (one-way scorer) or Little (undersized) compare to Horvat in any way... maybe at least find similar players?

Besides, no one is saying that junior offense necessarily projects to the NHL 100% of the time but it certainly projects better than when one doesn't score in junior. Really, you're not making much of a case against Horvat as against all CHL players...
It doesn't matter what kind of scorers they are. I'm saying that putting up big numbers is no guarantee their offense will translate. That is all. Horvat scoring this year is to be expected. If he had put up a similar ~PPG campaign I'd have put him in the same boat as Gaunce as a likely 3C.

But him putting up those numbers doesn't all of a sudden make it likely he'll have top line production at the NHL level.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:20 PM
  #102
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Besides, you're dismissing his numbers and saying you haven't watched him play this year but then how in the world can you say with such certainty that he doesn't have enough offensive upside? So there's really nothing Horvat could do right now to persuade you that he has offensive upside. This is just a worthy thread if there ever was one.
Vkw has clearly demonstrated he has no clue how Horvat plays.

arsmaster is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:24 PM
  #103
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Vkw has clearly demonstrated he has no clue how Horvat plays.
And yet we both seem to share the same realistic expectation for Horvat, sans the elusive "winner" connotation.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:29 PM
  #104
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,975
vCash: 500
I think the difference between a two-way player with a lower-end offensive upside and a high-end one is pretty clear in this game (and tournament as a whole) when watching Laughton and Horvat play together. Laughton is more mature, has great motor, good skills, etc. but just doesn't see the ice well and plays in a straight line with no creativity. Horvat constantly makes passes that create a ton of room for his teammates like the one to McDavid in the 1st, Dumba in the 2nd, Reinhart earlier in this period, etc.

Tiranis is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:32 PM
  #105
Craz1bo1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,299
vCash: 500
I think Horvat will be fine, guys. (Cover up for posting in the wrong thread)

Craz1bo1 is online now  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:32 PM
  #106
CanadianPirate
Registered User
 
CanadianPirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,122
vCash: 500
He is making many smart decision around the net that with the way hockey is played in the nhl will let him produce quite a bit offensively. The way he created the McDavid goal today is an excellent example.

CanadianPirate is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:33 PM
  #107
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And yet we both seem to share the same realistic expectation for Horvat, sans the elusive "winner" connotation.
Look back. You called him a shooter last season.its clear you've seen very little.

It's also clear you love flash.

arsmaster is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:34 PM
  #108
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think the difference between a two-way player with a lower-end offensive upside and a high-end one is pretty clear in this game (and tournament as a whole) when watching Laughton and Horvat play together.
There's not only two options, "no offense" or "high offense".

There are guys like Gauthier, who are black holes offensively. There are guys like Horvat, who would make a solid complimentary player but isn't one to drive the offense himself, and there are the true high end offensive players like Drouin.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:35 PM
  #109
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Look back. You called him a shooter last season.its clear you've seen very little.

It's also clear you love flash.
I called him more shoot-first than someone like Bergeron, who he was being compared to.

And if the "flash" is indicative of someone who has elite offensive talent and/or vision, then yes, I love flash.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:36 PM
  #110
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,975
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I called him more shoot-first than someone like Bergeron, who he was being compared to.

And if the "flash" is indicative of someone who has elite offensive talent and/or vision, then yes, I love flash.
Bergeron has previously had 300 shots in a season. Horvat is no more of a shoot-first player than Bergeron is.

Tiranis is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:40 PM
  #111
Nuck This
Registered User
 
Nuck This's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not saying he has "no" offense, I'm saying he doesn't have enough offense.

Now admittedly I haven't seen much of him this season. Most of my viewings were from last year, and this year's WJC. If he has blossomed into a high end offensive player then great, but I'm definitely not sold based on what I've seen so far.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Guys like Bolland, or even our very own Dane Fox have put up fantastic numbers in juniors. That doesn't mean they were or are seen to have high end offensive potential at the NHL level.
I find it hard to believe you watched him more last year than you have this year now that he's Canucks property. The times last year was it in the OHL playoffs??? When he scored 16 in 21?

Nuck This is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:43 PM
  #112
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Bergeron has previously had 300 shots in a season. Horvat is no more of a shoot-first player than Bergeron is.
It's mind boggling how you can call me out on "not having an honest discussion" when you're using a 1-time season 8 years ago. Compared to the Bergeron of 05-06, fine, Horvat isn't more shoot-first.

But since then he's stayed pretty constant at being on pace for ~200, and is quite obviously what is being referred to.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:44 PM
  #113
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,975
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's mind boggling how you can call me out on "not having an honest discussion" when you're using a 1-time season 8 years ago. Compared to the Bergeron of 05-06, fine, Horvat isn't more shoot-first.

But since then he's stayed pretty constant at being on pace for ~200.
Bergeron is 14th this season and was 16th last season in shots on goal by centres. Horvat is no more of a shoot-first player than Bergeron is.

Tiranis is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:45 PM
  #114
CanaFan
Registered User
 
CanaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Putting up big numbers in junior does not guarantee they will translate to the NHL.
Of course not, there are never guarantees with prospects. But we are talking about potential upsides/ceilings here, not guarantees. Every one of those 18 year olds was a top 10 pick and expected to be scoring line players. There was no talk of their ceilings being 45-55 point players. The fact that they didn't meet their projections is irrelevant - failing to meet projections is the norm, not the exception. Horvat putting up 1.5+ PPG is no "guarantee" of anything, but it does put his potential ceiling at a different level than if he was putting up sub-PPG numbers. And all anyone is talking about here is potential ceilings, as no one knows whether an 18 yo kid will reach it or not.

CanaFan is online now  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:51 PM
  #115
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Bergeron is 14th this season and was 16th last season in shots on goal by centres. Horvat is no more of a shoot-first player than Bergeron is.
Sidney Crosby has the 5th most shots in the league. I guess he's a more of a "shoot-first" centre than Bergeron as well?

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:57 PM
  #116
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,975
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Sidney Crosby has the 5th most shots in the league. I guess he's a more of a "shoot-first" centre than Bergeron as well?
He also plays more minutes — more than any other center in the league, in fact. Almost 30% more minutes than Bergeron.

Bergeron shoots a lot given his minutes and assignments. To claim that Bo Horvat is more of a shoot-first player just demonstrates complete lack of knowledge when it comes to Bo (or Bergeron).


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-31-2013 at 01:02 PM.
Tiranis is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:57 PM
  #117
CanaFan
Registered User
 
CanaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think the difference between a two-way player with a lower-end offensive upside and a high-end one is pretty clear in this game (and tournament as a whole) when watching Laughton and Horvat play together. Laughton is more mature, has great motor, good skills, etc. but just doesn't see the ice well and plays in a straight line with no creativity. Horvat constantly makes passes that create a ton of room for his teammates like the one to McDavid in the 1st, Dumba in the 2nd, Reinhart earlier in this period, etc.
This is a great observation and what I've been noticing this game as well. Horvat often makes the "right" pass - on the stick, at the right time, to the player in a position to receive it. Not flashy, doesn't look off an open player to give the puck an extra dangle or move. You see how many times a guy like Reinhart has good scoring chances as a result of a Horvat pass. Very translatable to the NHL imo.

Conversely you watch a guy like Mantha and while his offensive skills are tremendous, he makes a number of ill advised plays that will get him benched at the NHL level. Much better junior skills than Horvat no question, but will need to change his game at the NHL level more than Horvat will.

CanaFan is online now  
Old
12-31-2013, 12:57 PM
  #118
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Sidney Crosby has the 5th most shots in the league. I guess he's a more of a "shoot-first" centre than Bergeron as well?
Yeah he is.

What's your point.

arsmaster is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:03 PM
  #119
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Yeah, he is, actually. Although he also plays more minutes more than any other center in the league, in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Yeah he is.

What's your point.
Taking more shots doesn't make you more shoot first. If you're a top player you will put up more shots as well as make more plays.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:04 PM
  #120
tc23
Moderator
#StopWeberSbisa2014
 
tc23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,814
vCash: 500
The piece TSN did on the story behind Horvat's #53 before today's WJC game.

http://www.tsn.ca/videohub/?collection=72&show=267541

tc23 is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:07 PM
  #121
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Taking more shots doesn't make you more shoot first. If you're a top player you will put up more shots as well as make more plays.
Semantics.


Last edited by Taelin: 12-31-2013 at 01:33 PM. Reason: flaming
arsmaster is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:09 PM
  #122
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I called him more shoot-first than someone like Bergeron, who he was being compared to.

And if the "flash" is indicative of someone who has elite offensive talent and/or vision, then yes, I love flash.
Not true at all. Shall I summon bleach clean.

You specifically looked at his stats and tried to use them as hard evidence.

Clear to those who watch that he's primarily a playmaker, but is a pretty good shooter and an excellent net front guy.

arsmaster is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:11 PM
  #123
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Semantics.


As it happens it seem like Horvat at the World Juniors has been looking more pass-oriented than he did last year. If he has become more pass-first this year then that's fine. But based on his draft year he definitely looked to me to look to scoring goals over making plays.


Last edited by Taelin: 12-31-2013 at 01:34 PM. Reason: edited quoted post
Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:16 PM
  #124
Proto
Registered User
 
Proto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,484
vCash: 500
I'm not sure you can call Crosby "shoot first", but you certainly can't call him "pass first" when he averages 3.5 shots a game in his career, trending towards 4. I also don't see this as being a very useful tangent.

Proto is offline  
Old
12-31-2013, 01:20 PM
  #125
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I'm not sure you can call Crosby "shoot first", but you certainly can't call him "pass first" when he averages 3.5 shots a game in his career, trending towards 4. I also don't see this as being a very useful tangent.
That's why I called it a semantics argument. Sid will shoot before he hopes a pass will work.

You don't score 50 in this day and age passing up shots.

arsmaster is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.