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Trade Rumors/Speculation Part X: Sather Falls Asleep on the Phone

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Old
12-30-2013, 08:57 AM
  #51
Ola
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
Goals against under Renney:

2005-2006 4th
2006-2007 9th
2007-2008 4th
2008-2009 year he was fired 6th, yeah I'm not buying the whole defense was trash argument. No doubt Henrik was great those years but he was protected a lot better in Renney's system than he is now playing behind a much better defense corps. This team can't handle man to man, they just can't. Lundqvist looks human this year because the defense is different, more holes, more chances.
It looks horrible right now.

But, we did play man-man under Renney too unless I am completely misstaken. Colorado is a team now that has success with man-man. Detroit of course.

But this is just an area that I have a bad track of. I played hockey at a fairly high level to I was 20-21. I never played anything else than man-man. We did it under Renney. But there was a change at that time with the shot blocking culture getting a grip of the game. It was obvious how a lot of teams abandoned man-man.

But now when you see it, it look like a complete mess. I don't figure out what the plan is. We are just never in position to accomplish anything. When a shot is coming we have five guys going in all kind of positions. Right after we get back on defense, we are really vunerable. It takes a few sec for us to pick up the assignments.

Esposito (?) went all giddy during the game yesterday when he saw us play defense. He among other things said something like "if they just get into the zone against this defense they will score a lot of goals".

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12-30-2013, 08:57 AM
  #52
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I'm fine with not moving DZ right now if all the offers out there are garbage (like the rumored OTT deals).

If, on the other hand, Sather is just holding out in some vain hope that DZ will turn his game around and increase his value, or some team will get mega-desperate and overpay, well then shame on him.
Will AV play DZ when Staal and Stralman return? Staal could play tomorrow or Friday. Stralman has a wrist/hand thing. The x-rays were negative. Its not a long term thing. AV has liked Allen since camp. If its healthy scratch DZ again,that won't help his value.

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12-30-2013, 09:01 AM
  #53
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Its ******** if they keep scratching DZ because it destroys his value if they are trying to trade him. Why keep doing this?

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12-30-2013, 09:03 AM
  #54
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I do not want to defend him but it is quite natural that his game looks so bad. Del Zotto is playing under tremendous pressure each game, knowing that he could be traded any day now. His relationship with new coach, the new system that AV brought to NY might also have a negative impact on his game. We will not get anything decent in return for MDZ at this point. I think we all will be disappointed more than pleased with the return he might get back to us.

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12-30-2013, 09:03 AM
  #55
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There was a play in the second period when he was on the ice with Girardi. Del Zotto drifted to the right side of the ice. Girardi was there. Del Zotto needs a change of scenery.
Micheletti picked him apart for TB's pwp goal as well. DZ attacking the puck carrier facing straight at him along the sideboards which led to the back door play that Tyler Johnson easily put in the net. Henrik had no chance on that one.

On the play you mention it was Martin St. Louis who had the chance. All 5 Rangers on the right side when TB sprung the puck to St. Louis on the left. Just about the last guy in the league you'd want to leave unchecked. We were lucky to cut him off.

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12-30-2013, 09:05 AM
  #56
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There was a play in the second period when he was on the ice with Girardi. Del Zotto drifted to the right side of the ice. Girardi was there. Del Zotto needs a change of scenery.
Agreed, if the Swedes at this place don't get enough of watching MDZ they can turn on Jesper Fast's old team HV71's games and watch Elias Fält play defense. HV71 fired their coach a couple of weeks ago and decided to start to play man-man. Fälth, a star in the SHL, had never played man-man before. They lost the first game 7-1. Won the second game 5-4 agains the worst team in the league. Fälth was a complete mess, exactly like MDZ.

MDZ played fairly good though for Talbot. We obviously doesn't play man man at all when Talbot is in the net or is at least a lot less aggressive.

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12-30-2013, 09:05 AM
  #57
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I do not want to defend him but it is quite natural that his game looks so bad. Del Zotto is playing under tremendous pressure each game, knowing that he could be traded any day now. His relationship with new coach, the new system that AV brought to NY might also have a negative impact on his game. We will not get anything decent in return for MDZ at this point. I think we all will be disappointed more than pleased with the return he might get back to us.

I agree.Management really messed him up mentally.

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12-30-2013, 09:10 AM
  #58
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Will AV play DZ when Staal and Stralman return? Staal could play tomorrow or Friday. Stralman has a wrist/hand thing. The x-rays were negative. Its not a long term thing. AV has liked Allen since camp. If its healthy scratch DZ again,that won't help his value.
I don't disagree, I just think we need to get fair value out of DZ, or else what's the point in trading him? I cannot believe that there isn't a team out there offering fair value for him. I also cannot believe that there isn't a team out there with a similarly skilled, similarly in-need-of-a-change-in-scenery type player.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I often am...

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12-30-2013, 09:13 AM
  #59
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The Rangers, to my knowledge never played man d under Renny like they are currently. Torts took it to a new level with a completely collapsing d zone system that never really put any pressure on players along the perimeter. But the Rangers always fundamentally played zone, even under Renny. They pressured the puck more but players still had defined areas to cover ie RD cover the right half of the ice.

Players are literally scrambling all over the ice to cover a specific player rather than "staying home" in their zone. There is a dirty joke to make here about how much action the slot is seeing. First goal last night was textbook. Del Zotto is all over the sheet, wildly pressuring the puck carrier. Try as he might he is not quick enough to make that play. VERY few NHL dmen are. John Moore dives to attack the puck carrier below the goal line. This is a cardinal no no as any D but especially a RD in a zone system. It's almost impossible for that player to score. Take the passing lane or the guy in the slot. Ideally Del Zotto takes the lane and Moore stays home on the right side covering the slot. Instead he wildly dives to apply pressure. Weak side forward recognizes too late and doesn't collapse down. Easy goal.

It just frankly makes no sense to me to play that way. You wind up with players all over the ice which makes executing a breakout very difficult. Unless your dman can skate it out of danger. Yet people want to trade great defensive players for picks because they "don't fit." I just don't get it. I mean I understand in theory. In practice is another story.

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12-30-2013, 09:16 AM
  #60
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What is Allaiere thinking of man-man?

His philosophy is built around defensive zone play. Keep the goalie deep in the net. Keep Ds close around him to prevent any real point blank shots (you can't stop them if you are standing on the goal line). You will be pressured real hard, but it's possible to really shut the other team down. They will get good chances, but never those slam dunks that can't be saved.

Man-man is obviously not Allaiere's cup of tee. Or what do I know, maybe he is open to ideas and flexible. But it's a huge adjustment for him.

No matter what, AV, BA and Ulfie gotta sit down and figure something out. Because so far how we play defense with Hank in the net it don't seem to work even in theory.

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12-30-2013, 09:18 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
The Rangers, to my knowledge never played man d under Renny like they are currently. Torts took it to a new level with a completely collapsing d zone system that never really put any pressure on players along the perimeter. But the Rangers always fundamentally played zone, even under Renny. They pressured the puck more but players still had defined areas to cover ie RD cover the right half of the ice.

Players are literally scrambling a over the ice to cover a specific player rather than "staying home" in their zone. There is a dirty joke to make here about how much action the slot is seeing. First goal last night was textbook. Del Zotto is all over the sheet, wildly pressuring the puck carrier. Try as he might he is not wuick enough to make that play. VERY few NHL dmen are. John Moore dives to attack the puck carrier below the goal line. This is a cardinal no no as any D but especially a RD in a zone system. It's almost possible for that player to score. Take the passing lane or the guy on the slot. Ideally Del Zotto takes the lane and Moore stays home on the right side covering the slot. Instead he wildly dives to apply pressure. Weak side forward recognizes too late an doesn't collapse down. Easy goal.

It just frankly makes no sense to me to play that way. You wind up with players all over the ice which makes executing a breakout very difficult. Unles your dman can skate it out of danger. Yet people wan to trade great defensive players for picks because they don't fit. I just don't get it. I mean I understand in theory. In practice is another story.

If you ask me the defensive system is stupid altogether. Its obvious our defense isnt very good at man to man so why not mix in some zone here and there? Our guys look clueless in the defensive zone

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12-30-2013, 09:20 AM
  #62
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Also, I immediately thought of this song when I read the thread title....




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12-30-2013, 09:31 AM
  #63
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HatTrick S- We did play man-man under Renney. But it's not supposed to be noticed barely. You aren't supposed to run around like idiots like we are. I mean, if you really have pressure on everyone and you end up on the back of someone, you can stay with them like Moore did. And if you remember, Rozi, Malik. Staal and Girardi from time to time pressured players like that under Renney. Torts also talked a lot about changing the defensive play when he took over. But you could barely tell that it was diffrent when Torts took over. That's how it should be. It shouldn't be a big difference. Hence why I am a bit confused. We are really struggling with it. We are almost never in shooting lanes. We always seem to loose a player or two. Are we doing it wrong? Can't our players play it? I mean, we're Rozi, Malik, Kaspar, Poti and co raised with it while the new generation has to learn from scratch? Has the game changed so much that it barely works anymore?

I mean offensively it's easy to see that it is paying off. Look how slow and stiff we looked against the Caps when we played zone. It's hard to pick everyone up for the other team when we win the puck. But you must play great D in hockey and right now we aren't close.

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12-30-2013, 09:42 AM
  #64
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HatTrick S- We did play man-man under Renney. But it's not supposed to be noticed barely. You aren't supposed to run around like idiots like we are. I mean, if you really have pressure on everyone and you end up on the back of someone, you can stay with them like Moore did. And if you remember, Rozi, Malik. Staal and Girardi from time to time pressured players like that under Renney. Torts also talked a lot about changing the defensive play when he took over. But you could barely tell that it was diffrent when Torts took over. That's how it should be. It shouldn't be a big difference. Hence why I am a bit confused. We are really struggling with it. We are almost never in shooting lanes. We always seem to loose a player or two. Are we doing it wrong? Can't our players play it? I mean, we're Rozi, Malik, Kaspar, Poti and co raised with it while the new generation has to learn from scratch? Has the game changed so much that it barely works anymore?
Rangers played zone under Renney, except there was a bigger emphasis on puck support and less on fronting and blocking shots like it was under Torts.

AV is 1-11 in the last 12 playoff games he's coached. Man on Man D is easy to expose if just one defender is off, you see teams do it to EDM every game. Put the puck where a Ranger is a step behind and watch the domino effect.

I thought the Rangers were a good powerplay, zone entry, and breakout away from the cup. Man on Man D changes all that, it's less physical so other teams aren't wearing down, and mistake prone.

When only 2 defenseman in your entire system play it right, then there is something wrong. Teams just tear you to shreds with passing plays.

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12-30-2013, 09:44 AM
  #65
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It looks horrible right now.

But, we did play man-man under Renney too unless I am completely misstaken. Colorado is a team now that has success with man-man. Detroit of course.
.
No, Rangers played a collapsing shot blocking system under Renney as well. It maybe was as pronounced as Torts' system and didn't get as much press since he didn't really talk about it, but they definitely were big into blocking shots and collapsing down. It's something I really noticed the Rangers do a lot coming out of the lockout and other teams started picking up on it in the following years.

As for the Rangers D, sometimes it looks like they get it, sometimes they look disorganized. Sometimes it almost looks like they're playing one guy in the puke position (he's the only one that chases the puck, everyone else collapses down) but I think that mainly because when the puck goes back to the point, you often see the winger on that side go to the guy with the puck, and when the puck is swung to the other point, the other winger is nowhere to be found and is usually down in the scrum around the slot. I really don't know if that's by design or the wingers just for some reason haven't picked up on their rotation well.

I'd say that's really the biggest problem, guys just don't always pick up their assignments correctly and for some reason end up guessing a lot about who they should be covering. On the flip side, the system worked alright for Vancouver for years and they really don't have defensemen that are any better than who the Rangers have. Maybe better forwards though...hard to say. Sometimes the Rangers seem to get it, sometimes they don't, don't really know why

Del Zotto had kind of a ****** game last night regardless though. Made some bad decisions that aren't a result of playing man defense.

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12-30-2013, 09:52 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
The Rangers, to my knowledge never played man d under Renny like they are currently. Torts took it to a new level with a completely collapsing d zone system that never really put any pressure on players along the perimeter. But the Rangers always fundamentally played zone, even under Renny. They pressured the puck more but players still had defined areas to cover ie RD cover the right half of the ice.

Players are literally scrambling a over the ice to cover a specific player rather than "staying home" in their zone. There is a dirty joke to make here about how much action the slot is seeing. First goal last night was textbook. Del Zotto is all over the sheet, wildly pressuring the puck carrier. Try as he might he is not wuick enough to make that play. VERY few NHL dmen are. John Moore dives to attack the puck carrier below the goal line. This is a cardinal no no as any D but especially a RD in a zone system. It's almost possible for that player to score. Take the passing lane or the guy on the slot. Ideally Del Zotto takes the lane and Moore stays home on the right side covering the slot. Instead he wildly dives to apply pressure. Weak side forward recognizes too late an doesn't collapse down. Easy goal.

It just frankly makes no sense to me to play that way. You wind up with players all over the ice which makes executing a breakout very difficult. Unles your dman can skate it out of danger. Yet people wan to trade great defensive players for picks because they don't fit. I just don't get it. I mean I understand in theory. In practice is another story.
I played right D for a while--it wasn't at any special level but when the puck was on the left side I covered the front of the net and any forwards in the slot area and when the puck went to the right side we'd switch off with the other d covering the net and me harassing the guy with the puck. It's just standard hockey defense. A d-man always covering the slot area when the puck is in your end. So to me there's been a lot of running around in the Rangers end this year. Seems to me that the Rangers to play the D that AV would like would need need at least 2 more guys who could skate and move the puck at McD's level with about the same hockey IQ as Ryan. We just don't have the ****ing horses to do that. Looking at Allen last night--possibly he could do that in a year or so. If John Moore weren't off in dreamland now and again he has the skating and skill as well. Girardi is an ace at meat and potatoes defending as long as you don't pair him with DZ. Stralman can think and react but IMO the entire defense including even McDonagh would be more comfortable playing zone. I think Henrik would be happier too.

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12-30-2013, 09:53 AM
  #67
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No, Rangers played a collapsing shot blocking system under Renney as well. It maybe was as pronounced as Torts' system and didn't get as much press since he didn't really talk about it, but they definitely were big into blocking shots and collapsing down. It's something I really noticed the Rangers do a lot coming out of the lockout and other teams started picking up on it in the following years.
Yes, don't forget Girardi came up under Renney. These Drury/Rozsival teams were huge shot-blockers.

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12-30-2013, 09:54 AM
  #68
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The MDZ situation is looking more and more like Dubinsky's end. You see the talent and value but a change of scenery is needed for both sides.

All too often that is the story with our young guys. I hope somebody in power sees this ongoing problem.

Sather is back to the days where each new solution backfires and creates two new problems. We are committed to Lundqvist and McD is our only untouchable. Turn the keys over to the next gm and start turning over the roster.

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12-30-2013, 09:56 AM
  #69
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I played right D for a while--it wasn't at any special level but when the puck was on the left side I covered the front of the net and any forwards in the slot area and when the puck went to the right side we'd switch off with the other d covering the net and me harassing the guy with the puck. It's just standard hockey defense. A d-man always covering the slot area when the puck is in your end. So to me there's been a lot of running around in the Rangers end this year. Seems to me that the Rangers to play the D that AV would like would need need at least 2 more guys who could skate and move the puck at McD's level with about the same hockey IQ as Ryan. We just don't have the ****ing horses to do that. Looking at Allen last night--possibly he could do that in a year or so. If John Moore weren't off in dreamland now and again he has the skating and skill as well. Girardi is an ace at meat and potatoes defending as long as you don't pair him with DZ. Stralman can think and react but IMO the entire defense including even McDonagh would be more comfortable playing zone. I think Henrik would be happier too.
Well again, AV didn't have players on defense that were really any better in Vancouver than he does now. I'm not saying his system isn't flawed, but I don't think the players are executing it correctly and up to their capabilities now either.

But in the end that probably means that AV needs to rethink how this is working. When the Rangers get it in their heads and play good D, they generally score a lot more this year. When they play terrible D they don't and of course a huge part of that is when they're playing good D, they possess the puck more, don't play from behind as much, and draw more penalties, get more shots, etc. But the D has been so crappy at times that it also destroys the offense.

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12-30-2013, 10:10 AM
  #70
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I wonder what it would take to get eberle out of edm

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12-30-2013, 10:18 AM
  #71
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I wonder what it would take to get eberle out of edm
I think it will be a whole lot more than what we want to pay. If they're willing to take MDZ or Girardi as the centerpiece, I think something could be worked out. Probably not though...

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12-30-2013, 10:23 AM
  #72
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From what I see, they are trying to play a man to man pressure the puck D.

The issue with zone is always the same, the transition game suffers because they spend a lot more time defending, shot blocking, allowing perimeter play, instead of actively trying to take the puck back and going up ice. The players get tired and have nothing left to go up ice. Plus it allows for point shots, much like the Boston series last year.

Personally, I'd rather see some sort of hybrid system where they play zone but also are able to release and chase the puck in certain parts of the ice. Or maybe if they can identify the right player to pressure.

It's sort of like with Del Zotto, other teams know if they pressure him in the right place he is likely to make a bad read and poor play that leads to offense for them. The Devils series from two years ago.

I was hoping AV would instill some sort of heady play, something I rarely if ever saw with Torts, maybe the players in general just have trouble thinking the game or something. I mean they go up against some teams who don't have really anything more than one or two quality defenders and they look sort of clueless on how to take advantage of it. They go up against backup goalies and all they do is shoot it into the chest all night.

Not sure who to even put it on anymore, different coaches, different players, it's always the same sort of thing, they play like it's their first time as a team on way too many occasions. I would have guessed the coaching has at least scouted some of their opponents before and would have at least told the players their tendencies, but it looks more like they just go out and do whatever they want much of the time.

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12-30-2013, 10:25 AM
  #73
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The MDZ situation is looking more and more like Dubinsky's end. You see the talent and value but a change of scenery is needed for both sides.

All too often that is the story with our young guys. I hope somebody in power sees this ongoing problem.

Sather is back to the days where each new solution backfires and creates two new problems. We are committed to Lundqvist and McD is our only untouchable. Turn the keys over to the next gm and start turning over the roster.

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12-30-2013, 10:28 AM
  #74
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But in the end that probably means that AV needs to rethink how this is working. When the Rangers get it in their heads and play good D, they generally score a lot more this year. When they play terrible D they don't and of course a huge part of that is when they're playing good D, they possess the puck more, don't play from behind as much, and draw more penalties, get more shots, etc. But the D has been so crappy at times that it also destroys the offense.
Yeah I mean when a team pounces on the Rangers, the game's been over before the 20 minute mark several times this season.

I mean after how many games has this board bemoaned effort?

When you have a goalie that doesn't give up 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities, and there's that defensive structure in place to maximize that ability, you are going to make the playoffs because said goalie ends up stealing 15-20 games.

Add a powerplay, consistent break out, and zone entry, and you have a team that plays like Chicago, not with the same amount of skill or goal scoring, but how they play the game at least. You can't leave the slot area open in today's NHL. You couldn't 20 years ago without a high quality scoring chance, and you can't now.

Add in a lack of willingness to engage physically and you see teams cut the Rangers open with passes and go up the ice untouched, and without any hindrance. Clean plays, clean shots.

Oh btw Brian Boyle is the Faceoff insurance I've seen. Not taking draws, but watching specialists lose d-zone draws clean. Having small or undersized centers that can't even out or tie up off the draw has has lead to a lot of goals.

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12-30-2013, 10:29 AM
  #75
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Well again, AV didn't have players on defense that were really any better in Vancouver than he does now. I'm not saying his system isn't flawed, but I don't think the players are executing it correctly and up to their capabilities now either.

But in the end that probably means that AV needs to rethink how this is working. When the Rangers get it in their heads and play good D, they generally score a lot more this year. When they play terrible D they don't and of course a huge part of that is when they're playing good D, they possess the puck more, don't play from behind as much, and draw more penalties, get more shots, etc. But the D has been so crappy at times that it also destroys the offense.
Given Staal's struggles and MDZ's collapse, as well as G looking a little slower/less effective (I think he's still been solid, just not top 2 solid) I would say that Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison, Tanev is a pretty superior group. Hamhuis is extremely underrated.

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