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Zac Rinaldo (2013-14 season) -- Update Apr. 7, 2014: Suspended four games

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Old
03-31-2014, 01:54 PM
  #301
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The Richards hit on Krejci is the only hit I can remember that really influenced a game(and series) and that was because it knocked Krejci out of the playoffs

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03-31-2014, 02:07 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bauerhockey02 View Post
So again, a Laperriere type who can bring the intensity but still brings better defense by doing things like blocking tons of shots.
I'm totally fine with that. I'm not saying I think Rinaldo is the best agitator/sandpaper/whatever kind of player. I'd love a guy that has it all over Rinaldo.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
First part: I think you're really overestimating how much intimidation he brings. He just isn't on the ice enough to be that much of a factor. Most of the opposing team might not even share the ice with him during a game. He just doesn't play enough to be that much of a factor, and when he is on the ice it's not like they're a risk to score or capitalize on any intimidation.

Like I said, we aren't dealing with Lindros here, who could crush guys and was on the ice a LOT. He wasn't escapable. Rinaldo is.

Second Part: Well alright then, no more point arguing that. I know how this will go.
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I am little confused. Are you valuing intensity over defensive play? Those 8 minutes that Rinaldo is out there, isnt it more important to prevent a goal then to hit people to bring intensity?

I wont lie i think you are the first person to say you'd rather have Rinaldo over Betts
I think you are missing my point. I'm not valuing anything over anything else. You need it all. We have a guy on the fourth line who plays solid defense (Hall, and even Raffl when he is there). They aren't Selke winners but they are good, responsible defenders for the most part. Putting Betts out there makes that a better defensive line. No doubt about that. But Betts isn't needed on that line. Rinaldo isn't necessarily needed either, but I'd rather have Rinaldo on that line than Betts. An extreme example would be like if you have Ilya Kovalchuk and Alexander Ovechkinn on the same line. You don't need another goal scorer. A guy like Marian Gaborik might be better than a different player, but he is not needed.

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03-31-2014, 02:16 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm totally fine with that. I'm not saying I think Rinaldo is the best agitator/sandpaper/whatever kind of player. I'd love a guy that has it all over Rinaldo.





I think you are missing my point. I'm not valuing anything over anything else. You need it all. We have a guy on the fourth line who plays solid defense (Hall, and even Raffl when he is there). They aren't Selke winners but they are good, responsible defenders for the most part. Putting Betts out there makes that a better defensive line. No doubt about that. But Betts isn't needed on that line. Rinaldo isn't necessarily needed either, but I'd rather have Rinaldo on that line than Betts. An extreme example would be like if you have Ilya Kovalchuk and Alexander Ovechkinn on the same line. You don't need another goal scorer. A guy like Marian Gaborik might be better than a different player, but he is not needed.
Sorry, but that didn't make any sense to me. When you're talking about a 4th line that is generally going to be used in a defensive role while hopefully also pushing the play out of their own end, why would you take a player who is greatly inferior defensively over someone who is pretty damned good defensively?

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Old
03-31-2014, 02:23 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by bauerhockey02 View Post
So again, a Laperriere type who can bring the intensity but still brings better defense by doing things like blocking tons of shots.
Lappy was the ultimate 4th liner, I miss that guy even though his career was short here. I wish Goulbourne turns out to be a clone of him instead of Rinaldo.

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03-31-2014, 02:42 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sorry, but that didn't make any sense to me. When you're talking about a 4th line that is generally going to be used in a defensive role while hopefully also pushing the play out of their own end, why would you take a player who is greatly inferior defensively over someone who is pretty damned good defensively?
I thought it was pretty clear. You have guys who can play defense on that line. You don't have an energy guy on that line. More defense is good. I agree. But so is a guy that can stir the pot, draw the penalty, and juice-up the team. Like I said, I'd take Betts over Hall on this team. And I'd take Betts over Rinaldo on a team that needs the defense more. But this is a team that uses Rinaldo pretty effectively in the fourth line role.

Like I said, in my extreme example, you have two straight, pure goal scorers on a line. Is having a third elite pure goal scorer on that line better than having a playmaker or a defensive-minded player? In a vacuum you'd take the goal scorer over the "lesser" player, but to put on a line with OV and Kovy, you might not want that goal-guy. That doesn't mean you want to make the team worse or you are valuing one aspect of a player's game over another. It just means guys bring different things to the game and different scenarios call for different abilities. Is Betts better than Rinaldo? 100% yes. Does this team need a Rinaldo-type player? I believe the answer is yes.

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03-31-2014, 02:49 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Lappy was the ultimate 4th liner, I miss that guy even though his career was short here. I wish Goulbourne turns out to be a clone of him instead of Rinaldo.
I agree. I was at the game where he lost the teeth but then came back. The way he played was fantastic and inspiring. If he could get Rinaldo to start playing somewhat similar it would be great! Rinaldo likely couldn't match the offensive production but just the boost in defensive ability would be good. I also agree about Goulbourne.

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03-31-2014, 03:11 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I thought it was pretty clear. You have guys who can play defense on that line. You don't have an energy guy on that line. More defense is good. I agree. But so is a guy that can stir the pot, draw the penalty, and juice-up the team. Like I said, I'd take Betts over Hall on this team. And I'd take Betts over Rinaldo on a team that needs the defense more. But this is a team that uses Rinaldo pretty effectively in the fourth line role.

Like I said, in my extreme example, you have two straight, pure goal scorers on a line. Is having a third elite pure goal scorer on that line better than having a playmaker or a defensive-minded player? In a vacuum you'd take the goal scorer over the "lesser" player, but to put on a line with OV and Kovy, you might not want that goal-guy. That doesn't mean you want to make the team worse or you are valuing one aspect of a player's game over another. It just means guys bring different things to the game and different scenarios call for different abilities. Is Betts better than Rinaldo? 100% yes. Does this team need a Rinaldo-type player? I believe the answer is yes.
The team has Simmonds, Hartnell, Giroux, Schenn. They don't NEED an energy guy for the sake of having an energy guy, especially at the cost of making the roster worse if they have the option of playing someone better like Betts.

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03-31-2014, 03:59 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The team has Simmonds, Hartnell, Giroux, Schenn. They don't NEED an energy guy for the sake of having an energy guy, especially at the cost of making the roster worse if they have the option of playing someone better like Betts.
Hartnell and Schenn are not energy guys. Hartnell stirs the pot after the whistle, for sure, and Schenn will hit guys, but Rinaldo is pure energy. Rinaldo is 4th in hits per 60 minutes (Schenn is 158th, Hartnell is 260th). I know, I know, that doesn't matter because hitting people doesn't really do anything and won't have an impact because it just doesn't.

Giroux is energy, but not in the sense that Rinaldo is. Giroux is an energy player in that he is just an electrifying player. He can do it all. He's a superstar. That's not really an "energy" player. We're talking about fourth line grinders that bring the energy.

Simonds is the only other comparable energy guy. But that's not the reason he's on the team. He's a more complete player. Having another energy guy is not a bad thing. Nor is having another defensive guy. But with the team the way it is set up, I'd take a Rinaldo over a Betts. That doesn't mean I think Rinaldo is better than Betts. That doesn't mean I think a team of sandpaper guys is better than a team of Selke trohpy winners. That just means that I would prefer Rinaldo to Betts on this team.

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03-31-2014, 04:02 PM
  #309
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So, on a team that has two lines that are often questionable defensively, you choose not to improve one of those lines.

For all of Rinaldo's special unique energy, can you name a time when it really had an impact?

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03-31-2014, 04:07 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So, on a team that has two lines that are often questionable defensively, you choose not to improve one of those lines.

For all of Rinaldo's special unique energy, can you name a time when it really had an impact?
The type of play he brings is not measurable. You can't point to a game and say Rinaldo made a difference with his hits or whatever. But I'd say that every game that he plays in he makes an impact because he changes the way other players play. Can I point to a time where a player on an opposing team was hesitant to go down in the dirty areas when Rinaldo was on the ice, no because you can't measure that. Can I point to a time where his after the whistle or bull **** scrum stuff that he does threw a guy off his game, no because you can never point to something like that. But it happens. Can you point to a specific game where Blair Betts really had an impact? You can say the same thing "he was good defensively" but that doesn't always show up on a stat sheet or in a way that makes you say he had an impact (outside of a thing like Couturier shutting down Malkin a couple years ago when he was visibly upset and frustrated).

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03-31-2014, 04:14 PM
  #311
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How many more penalties do you want the dude to draw Beefy?

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03-31-2014, 04:17 PM
  #312
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Game 4 vs Boston in 2010...

Blair Betts was insane.

Without him they lose that game and never make the final...

honestly.

He pretty much was the PK, seemingly won every important draw and took whoever was on the ice for the Bruins out of the equation.

That 4th line helped get us to a cup final tbh.

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03-31-2014, 04:18 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The type of play he brings is not measurable. You can't point to a game and say Rinaldo made a difference with his hits or whatever. But I'd say that every game that he plays in he makes an impact because he changes the way other players play. Can I point to a time where a player on an opposing team was hesitant to go down in the dirty areas when Rinaldo was on the ice, no because you can't measure that. Can I point to a time where his after the whistle or bull **** scrum stuff that he does threw a guy off his game, no because you can never point to something like that. But it happens. Can you point to a specific game where Blair Betts really had an impact? You can say the same thing "he was good defensively" but that doesn't always show up on a stat sheet or in a way that makes you say he had an impact (outside of a thing like Couturier shutting down Malkin a couple years ago when he was visibly upset and frustrated).


For the 4th or 5th time, how MUCH can he possibly change how players play? He gets minimal ice time. Guys won't keep playing differently while he's on the bench. They MIGHT play differently when they're on the ice with him, but it's far from guaranteed and I can't really recall seeing anybody playing afraid of him. And in most games, the best players on the other team likely won't be on the ice with him for any appreciable amount of time, so he's having minimal impact on how they play. So how can he possibly be striking such great fear into other teams?

Betts' defensive and PK abilities had a constant impact that Rinaldo just doesn't have when he's not throwing hits. Betts and Powe were a great PK duo that often generated shorthanded scoring chanes, albeit with less success than Richards and Giroux. But if you want a specific example, I recall a 5v3 PK in his last year where he blocked shots like a champ and put on a clinic and the Flyers came out of the PK with momentum in their favor for the rest of the period.

But, that's the difference between the two. Betts had the ability to constantly contribute while he was on the ice. Rinaldo doesn't have that ability. He has to hope he makes a big hit or draws a penalty. Those aren't guaranteed, constant things like good defensive play.


You're picking a flash in the pan over actual substance. "Twilight" over "The Godfather."

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03-31-2014, 04:32 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Game 4 vs Boston in 2010...

Blair Betts was insane.

Without him they lose that game and never make the final...

honestly.

He pretty much was the PK, seemingly won every important draw and took whoever was on the ice for the Bruins out of the equation.

That 4th line helped get us to a cup final tbh.
Fair enough. Haha.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post


For the 4th or 5th time, how MUCH can he possibly change how players play? He gets minimal ice time. Guys won't keep playing differently while he's on the bench. They MIGHT play differently when they're on the ice with him, but it's far from guaranteed and I can't really recall seeing anybody playing afraid of him. And in most games, the best players on the other team likely won't be on the ice with him for any appreciable amount of time. So how can he possibly be striking such great fear into other teams?

Betts' defensive and PK abilities had a constant impact that Rinaldo just doesn't have when he's not throwing hits. Betts and Powe were a great PK duo that often generated shorthanded scoring chanes, albeit with less success than Richards and Giroux. But if you want a specific example, I recall a 5v3 PK in his last year where he blocked shots like a champ and put on a clinic and the Flyers came out of the PK with momentum in their favor for the rest of the period.

But, that's the difference between the two. Betts had the ability to constantly contribute while he was on the ice. Rinaldo doesn't have that ability. He has to hope he makes a big hit or draws a penalty. Those aren't guaranteed, constant things like good defensive play.
And that's fine because Betts was the go-to defense guy at the time. He was on the top PK unit. He was the shut-down center. He is not needed on this team. He would not be playing the same role. The Flyers Couturier to fill that role and they have Hall and others to play solid (not the same, but solid) defense on the fourth line. Once again I have to point out that I am not saying Rinaldo is a better player. I am saying on this team he's a better fit. He's the guy I'd go with. The PK is already top five for the most penalized team (I know, I know, with Betts it would tops) and top ten for shorthanded goals (I know, I know, with Betts it would be top five). The defense on the fourth line, admittedly isn't spectacular, but it is good enough when you consider that Couturier's line is already being matched up with the top line of the other teams.

So perhaps you are right, when Betts was on this team he had a greater impact than Rinaldo, but it isn't a 1-1 swap out. Betts would not be playing that role. He would be redundant. Another extreme example, but you don't want Jordan Eberle instead of Braydon Coburn because this team already has Jake Voracek, but you don't see what I am saying in this scenario? Rinaldo is not better than Betts, but he brings something different. Something that this team (and other teams) need. They also need defense, sure. But the Flyers have guys filling the role that Betts would fill. If Rinaldo is gone, you don't have that guy.

Quote:
You're picking a flash in the pan over actual substance. "Twilight" over "The Godfather."
You are going to tell me that you liked the Godfather more than Twilight? Don't be crazy. Twilight is a cinematic masterpiece.

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03-31-2014, 04:36 PM
  #315
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How many more penalties do you want the dude to draw Beefy?

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Drawing more penalties than he's responsible for would be a start, and this year that isn't the case.

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03-31-2014, 04:36 PM
  #316
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Hey!! He draws more penalties than any other player in the league. I know this because of Flyers twitter!

Damn somebody beat me to it.

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03-31-2014, 04:45 PM
  #317
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Fair enough. Haha.



And that's fine because Betts was the go-to defense guy at the time. He was on the top PK unit. He was the shut-down center. He is not needed on this team. He would not be playing the same role. The Flyers Couturier to fill that role and they have Hall and others to play solid (not the same, but solid) defense on the fourth line. Once again I have to point out that I am not saying Rinaldo is a better player. I am saying on this team he's a better fit. He's the guy I'd go with. The PK is already top five for the most penalized team (I know, I know, with Betts it would tops) and top ten for shorthanded goals (I know, I know, with Betts it would be top five). The defense on the fourth line, admittedly isn't spectacular, but it is good enough when you consider that Couturier's line is already being matched up with the top line of the other teams.

So perhaps you are right, when Betts was on this team he had a greater impact than Rinaldo, but it isn't a 1-1 swap out. Betts would not be playing that role. He would be redundant. Another extreme example, but you don't want Jordan Eberle instead of Braydon Coburn because this team already has Jake Voracek, but you don't see what I am saying in this scenario? Rinaldo is not better than Betts, but he brings something different. Something that this team (and other teams) need. They also need defense, sure. But the Flyers have guys filling the role that Betts would fill. If Rinaldo is gone, you don't have that guy.



You are going to tell me that you liked the Godfather more than Twilight? Don't be crazy. Twilight is a cinematic masterpiece.
He wouldn't be redundant, though. He was better at C than Hall currently is, and could easily push him to wing.

And now you are going beyond just lines, and into the team's makeup as a whole...Just because you have one player of a certain type already (Couturier good at D) doesn't make other players who are good at that skill redundant. I'm pretty sure the term for that is "depth." It's one thing to put two puck hogs like Nash and Carter on a line together, like Columbus did. That is probably going to neuter one or both players' productivity because of their play style. Having Betts and Couturier doesn't make either one less effective because of redundancy. If anything it would take pressure off each of them.

There's really no logical argument for not magically replacing Rinaldo with 2009 Betts if we had that option.

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03-31-2014, 05:03 PM
  #318
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Rinaldo gets 3.4 minor penalties per 60 minutes of ice time.

so yeah.. that's less than 4.8.. I guess that is the case.

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03-31-2014, 05:13 PM
  #319
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Rinaldo gets 3.4 minor penalties per 60 minutes of ice time.

so yeah.. that's less than 4.8.. I guess that is the case.
I had him at 5 penalties per 60, so I guess I misplaced a number somewhere along the line. I don't know, math is hard.

At the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that he's bad defensively and bad offensively, and those penalties (like his hits) just aren't enough to counter that.

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03-31-2014, 05:14 PM
  #320
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I'm torn on Rinaldo. The Flyers are a team that thrives on playing with a lot of emotion, which Rinaldo can bring on any shift. But, he's just not that good at anything. To stick around on the fourth line, you need to be a specialist at something other than playing like a downhill cannon ball.

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03-31-2014, 06:14 PM
  #321
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I don't understand what math they're using. It must be a minimum of 25 penalties (doesn't specify what MIN 25 is). But on a /60 scale, Rinaldo doesn't even lead the team in penalties drawn, he's behind both Giroux and Hartnell. Hartnell is actually T-10 in the league. The 5 guys they list are all dolts, so it's basically deciding which spoon in the drawer is the best for slicing bread.

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03-31-2014, 07:49 PM
  #322
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[Beef Invictus;82594727]He wouldn't be redundant, though. He was better at C than Hall currently is, and could easily push him to wing.
But again, that's is not needed. Betts is better than Hall, but Hall has been good on the 4th line and PK. Rinaldo brings the intensity to that line.

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And now you are going beyond just lines, and into the team's makeup as a whole...Just because you have one player of a certain type already (Couturier good at D) doesn't make other players who are good at that skill redundant. I'm pretty sure the term for that is "depth." It's one thing to put two puck hogs like Nash and Carter on a line together, like Columbus did. That is probably going to neuter one or both players' productivity because of their play style. Having Betts and Couturier doesn't make either one less effective because of redundancy. If anything it would take pressure off each of them.
You are right it won't make either less effective, but it may be better to have a guy out there that brings something different. This isn't a hard concept: Betts brings something different to the team. He brings something this team has in the bottom six/PK. Rinaldo brings something that Betts doesn't bring and that the team would be lacking if he weren't there.

Quote:
There's really no logical argument for not magically replacing Rinaldo with 2009 Betts if we had that option.
Good point.


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03-31-2014, 07:50 PM
  #323
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I don't understand what math they're using. It must be a minimum of 25 penalties (doesn't specify what MIN 25 is). But on a /60 scale, Rinaldo doesn't even lead the team in penalties drawn, he's behind both Giroux and Hartnell. Hartnell is actually T-10 in the league. The 5 guys they list are all dolts, so it's basically deciding which spoon in the drawer is the best for slicing bread.
Rinaldo is just one of those guys that certain fans like and others hate..

you'll never change someones thoughts on any given player..

its like Shelley, some people liked him. whateva..

maybe i just like the underdog types.. all my favs are players most fans cant stand or dont appreciate.

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03-31-2014, 08:20 PM
  #324
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Rinaldo is just one of those guys that certain fans like and others hate..

you'll never change someones thoughts on any given player..

its like Shelley, some people liked him. whateva..

maybe i just like the underdog types.. all my favs are players most fans cant stand or dont appreciate.
That's a funny way to say players who suck

Don't feel too bad though. I have a Reggie Brown and Stewart Bradley jersey

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03-31-2014, 08:46 PM
  #325
Cmoneyflyguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
For all of Rinaldo's special unique energy, can you name a time when it really had an impact?
Asked
Quote:
How many more penalties do you want the dude to draw Beefy?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkFcIxYCcAAz85u.jpg

best in da league
Answered
Quote:
Drawing more penalties than he's responsible for would be a start, and this year that isn't the case.
Today 05:32 PM
Asked
Quote:
Rinaldo gets 3.4 minor penalties per 60 minutes of ice time.

so yeah.. that's less than 4.8.. I guess that is the case.
Answered
and finally
Quote:
At the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that he's bad defensively and bad offensively, and those penalties (like his hits) just aren't enough to counter that.

Deflect
Well done

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