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Old
12-21-2013, 04:16 PM
  #1
Kel Varnsen
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AV

How is there no thread active about this clown? Guy sucks. He's an empty suit, propped up by the elite talent he had in VAN. As bad as the roster is, his forcing this team to play "his system" with wanton disregard to how extremely poorly it fits this group warrants his firing. Bring in someone who actually understands how you need to play when you have an unskilled group of forwards.

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12-21-2013, 04:27 PM
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TheRightWay
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
How is there no thread active about this clown? Guy sucks. He's an empty suit, propped up by the elite talent he had in VAN. As bad as the roster is, his forcing this team to play "his system" with wanton disregard to how extremely poorly it fits this group warrants his firing. Bring in someone who actually understands how you need to play when you have an unskilled group of forwards.
How do you play the game when you have an unskilled group of forwards? Is it the Muckler way? The Low way? The Trottier way? The Renney way? The Tortorella way? In the last decade or so we've had one season of any true success worth noting. How many coaches do we need to go through before we stop blaming the coaching? You could give Scotty Bowman this ****show of a team and it would still go nowhere.

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12-21-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
How do you play the game when you have an unskilled group of forwards? Is it the Muckler way? The Low way? The Trottier way? The Renney way? The Tortorella way? In the last decade or so we've had one season of any true success worth noting. How many coaches do we need to go through before we stop blaming the coaching? You could give Scotty Bowman this ****show of a team and it would still go nowhere.
We may not agree on a lot. But we are on the same page here.

AV is not to blame here. Soft, slow and unskilled are the reasons.

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12-21-2013, 04:37 PM
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Not impressed with him whatsoever....

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12-21-2013, 04:38 PM
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Wouldn't the answer be to build a team that can actually win playing an offensive game, rather than having a coach who is good at squeezing the max amount of performance out of a low-talent team?
We've done this every year. All it does is hide the serious flaws in a poorly constructed team that is mediocre at best, no matter who is coaching.
It just hinders any real progress. We're not winning a cup that way.

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12-21-2013, 04:52 PM
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The problem I have with AV is you'd think by now he'd realize that the system he had in Vancouver isn't working and is not going to work with the personnel he currently has in New York and he'd make some kind of attempt to adjust accordingly. It doesn't appear that that's going to happen. It's been square pegs into round holes all season. That's just one thing. One wonders how much control he has over this team--nor does he always appear to be all that concerned--appearances can be deceiving even so. He scratches guys--primarily Del Zotto--lately it's been Pyatt. The team still seems emotionless more often than not and likewise he seems emotionless.

As well though Sather's paw prints are all over the ****ing team--all over the coaching decision to hire AV in the first place--all over the UFA signings that have worked like **** and all over the Nash trade that changed the culture of the team of hard working gritty worker bees into a kind of country club for goof offs and has beens--no matter how talented they are. Valeri Kamensky was talented too.

At this point step No. 1) put Sather out to pasture 2) get rid of AV 3) prepare to sell off as many spare parts from now to the trade deadline and Nash would be one of them if possible.

These are the guys I'd be looking to hold on to for now--Lundqvist, Talbot, McDonagh, maybe J. Moore--maybe not, Kreider, Zuccarello, Stepan, probably Callahan and Hagelin and maybe--maybe not Dorsett. Also Richards because we need to buy him out. Hold on to Miller, McIlrath, Fast, Allen, Lindberg and maybe Kristo--which brings us to Stralman, Girardi. It would be a good idea to keep at least one of them just to have someone on the right side. Money is not necessarily the issue at this point as there should be plenty of cap space but if AV continued on there's no point in not moving Girardi. It's ****ing oil and water. Try to get rid of everyone else in the organization at both the NHL/AHL level.

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12-21-2013, 04:54 PM
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Should've been Ruff, but AV isn't the main NYR problem.

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12-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #9
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Sather gave him a team full of guys that aren't for his system, looks like he's lost faith in the team and the teams lost faith in him.

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12-21-2013, 05:10 PM
  #10
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A good coach adapts to his personnel. AV has not done that. Glen may have found a coach who matches him in hockey smarts.

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12-21-2013, 05:10 PM
  #11
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So **** the bed this year, and during the offseason he can have the team built the way he wants. Not sure if that is the intention, but either way I don't blame the coaching, I blame the GM. The team looks like hot garbage out there.

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Old
12-21-2013, 05:16 PM
  #12
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It's a joke. He isn't adapting. But, it all comes down to the GM. He knew what AV wanted to implement.

Now you know why Tortorella played the system he did.

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Old
12-21-2013, 05:28 PM
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TheRightWay
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A good coach adapts to his personnel. AV has not done that. Glen may have found a coach who matches him in hockey smarts.
Let's recap exactly what occurred this summer.

Glen Sather fires John Tortorella, with many issues to discern through but Glen Sather's biggest justification being that he wanted a different style of hockey. One focusing more on puck possession and an open flowing, offensive mindset.

Glen Sather hires Alain Vigneault, a guy who, with a roster built for puck possession and dynamic offensive movement, had much success with the Vancouver Canucks. Glen hires him with this in mind, hoping he can help turn the Rangers into that style of team.

You now want Alain Vigneault to "adjust" and move away from the style he was specifically hired for and which he specifically specializes in so that he can move back to the very style of play that Glen Sather fired John Tortorella for in the first place? A style of play that, aside from one season, Tortorella had no success beyond a few 6-8 seeds and early playoff exits?

That's literally just walking around in circles. Like I said. Pick Scotty Bowman. Or Joel Quenneville. How about Claude Julien? Nope. Pick any coach you want. There's no "style of play" that accounts for a team deprived of ample talent. Everyone here just talks about "adjustments." Nobody is capable of saying exactly what the specific tactical adjustments should be. 1-3-1, overload, umbrella, whatever. There's no tactical approach that will put us on par with a team like Chicago, San Jose, St. Louis, Boston, etc. We don't have the talent.


Last edited by TheRightWay: 12-21-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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12-21-2013, 05:29 PM
  #14
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Everyone criticizes AV for not adapting to what he has, yet praises Torts for doing it. How quickly people forget how well "safe is death" worked with this team for the first 60 games of Tortorella's tenure.

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12-21-2013, 05:33 PM
  #15
SomebodySaveKreider
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I'm sick of blaming the coaches, when we all know who the real culprit of this garbage hockey team is.

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Old
12-21-2013, 05:34 PM
  #16
NewLife
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Well he was brought here to change things and open up the game of the NY Rangers but he doesn't really have the personnel to play his game, so it's a quite though situation for him. But then again he must get the players to perform better somehow.

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12-21-2013, 05:38 PM
  #17
TheRightWay
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Originally Posted by SomebodySaveKreider View Post
I'm sick of blaming the coaches, when we all know who the real culprit of this garbage hockey team is.
How quickly people forget. During the summer so many people were celebrating Tortorella's departure and drooling over Vigneault. Look how nice he is to the media! The players won't be scared of him! No more overcomplicating things defensively and allowing Nash to be set free! Look guys, Clean Slate!!!!


The honeymoon's over. Welcome to reality. Guess what. The grass is always going to appear greener elsewhere. We could fire AV and bring in a new coach. Then people would start *****ing about whoever the new guy is. And it will be an endless cycle as people ride the hype train while ignoring the fact that this team has cycled through coaches endlessly with little progress to show for it over the years. We were a middle of the pack team when Renney left. We were a middle of the pack team with Tortorella aside for one season and were a middle of the pack team when he left. Now Vigneault is here and it's more of the same. Keep believing that coaching is the issue here, folks. Whatever makes you sleep at night.

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12-21-2013, 05:44 PM
  #18
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I'd take a Laviolette

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12-21-2013, 05:56 PM
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eco's bones
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Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
How quickly people forget. During the summer so many people were celebrating Tortorella's departure and drooling over Vigneault. Look how nice he is to the media! The players won't be scared of him! No more overcomplicating things defensively and allowing Nash to be set free! Look guys, Clean Slate!!!!


The honeymoon's over. Welcome to reality. Guess what. The grass is always going to appear greener elsewhere. We could fire AV and bring in a new coach. Then people would start *****ing about whoever the new guy is. And it will be an endless cycle as people ride the hype train while ignoring the fact that this team has cycled through coaches endlessly with little progress to show for it over the years. We were a middle of the pack team when Renney left. We were a middle of the pack team with Tortorella aside for one season and were a middle of the pack team when he left. Now Vigneault is here and it's more of the same. Keep believing that coaching is the issue here, folks. Whatever makes you sleep at night.
Personally I wasn't on the fire Tortorella bandwagon last year--so maybe you should be more specific about who exactly. That said I could see some logic behind it when it finally did happen. Our GM promised he'd make an extensive search for his replacement which he didn't really do. I was against Ruff--maybe he would have been better but I have this thing against all things Buffalo but there was no reason that it really came down to 2 interviews--that's on Sather. And it's on Sather that he hires a coach to transform a team into something that the players he provides to that coach are incapable of providing. It's senseless to continue on with that same coach if it's going to take years to give him what he requires if he's not willing to adapt to what he has instead. He either makes something worthwhile of what he does have or he should hit the road.

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12-21-2013, 06:04 PM
  #20
TheRightWay
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Personally I wasn't on the fire Tortorella bandwagon last year--so maybe you should be more specific about who exactly. That said I could see some logic behind it when it finally did happen. Our GM promised he'd make an extensive search for his replacement which he didn't really do. I was against Ruff--maybe he would have been better but I have this thing against all things Buffalo but there was no reason that it really came down to 2 interviews--that's on Sather. And it's on Sather that he hires a coach to transform a team into something that the players he provides to that coach are incapable of providing. It's senseless to continue on with that same coach if it's going to take years to give him what he requires if he's not willing to adapt to what he has instead. He either makes something worthwhile of what he does have or he should hit the road.
I wasn't on the fire Torts bandwagon either. The point is that Tortorella hardly had any success here. I'm not saying that as an indictment against Tortorella. Because Renney had little success prior and AV now the same deal.

Like I said, there's no coach that would turn this group into a contender. Do you truly believe that this is a team on par with Boston, Chicago, etc. and that AV is just holding it back? I'm in no way saying that AV has made no mistakes along the way, or that this team is as bad as they have been playing, but what do you see as the ceiling here? What is a kind of coaching style that would make this team a contender? The way I see it, we're looking at a team who hovers around the .500 mark, has to ride a hot Lundqvist to get anywhere, and then gets knocked out in the first round. Maybe they go on a bit of a run here and push into the second round? In what way is this any different from the same crap we've seen since 2006?

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12-21-2013, 06:19 PM
  #21
mint
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Out of all the blunders Glen Sather has made the past 4 years (Trading for Nash, letting go of Prust, getting garbage back for Gaborik, drafting McIlrath instead of Fowler/Tarsenko, etc), firing Tortorella after an expected 2nd round defeat to a vastly superior Bruins team might've been his biggest one.

The funny thing was, his end of season presser at the hiring of Vigneault, he enamored how much he admired 6-5 games as opposed to 1-0 games, somehow convincing himself of the delusions that Alain Vigneault will make chicken salad out of chicken **** with these group of players.

The team is 27th in the league in G/G.

Tortorella's Rangers over full seasons have never been below 16th in G/G.

AV might not be totally at fault, but there is no question that his current stint has been much worse than any part of Tortorella's tenure with the Rangers. And that concludes that the Rangers have severely downgraded their position at head coach, which in turn decimated the team's overall play thus far in the season.

Well Sather is right about one thing, the team is definitely allowing more goals. Must be more entertaining for Slats.

There is time to turn it around though.

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12-21-2013, 06:20 PM
  #22
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Some people call(ed) Torts a clown, and I hate the shot-blocking style of hockey we were playing, but I was not looking to get rid of him.

I just couldn't understand WHY we were playing the way were we playing. (shot blocking, ugly hockey. no offensive pressure)

Maybe now we know what Torts had figured out? Is that why "safe is death" went out the window after about 5 games?

Does anyone really believe that the reason we didn't win it all while he was coach was BECAUSE of the coaching? I don't. I think he squeezed blood out of a rock and a top goalie.

What does AV bring? We don't know because he is either unwilling or unable to adapt and get the most out of the (sorry) squad he was dealt.

This is not a terrible group of players in terms of skillset. They're a .500 hockey club that is PLAYING terrible.

We;re not winning a Cup, but we should be winning some games. AV isn't even getting us that now.

Note: I will not be shocked if Torts win a Cup in Vancouver and I'd love to see Sather's face on the NY Post when it happens.

#firesather #retiresather

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12-21-2013, 06:29 PM
  #23
eco's bones
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I wasn't on the fire Torts bandwagon either. The point is that Tortorella hardly had any success here. I'm not saying that as an indictment against Tortorella. Because Renney had little success prior and AV now the same deal.

Like I said, there's no coach that would turn this group into a contender. Do you truly believe that this is a team on par with Boston, Chicago, etc. and that AV is just holding it back? I'm in no way saying that AV has made no mistakes along the way, or that this team is as bad as they have been playing, but what do you see as the ceiling here? What is a kind of coaching style that would make this team a contender? The way I see it, we're looking at a team who hovers around the .500 mark, has to ride a hot Lundqvist to get anywhere, and then gets knocked out in the first round. Maybe they go on a bit of a run here and push into the second round? In what way is this any different from the same crap we've seen since 2006?
Don't see this team making any runs at the playoffs but even if it could pull itself out of the grave it'd be still spinning its wheels once it hit postseason so it depends on what we're doing next year. With all the UFA's and a bunch of RFA's I could care less about--MDZ, Brassard, Falk and definitely wouldn't be giving big raises to if I kept them at all if the Rangers decide to blow it up and start from scratch then a coach that can grow with them is the way to go. On another thread John Hynes the Pen's Wilkes-Barre head coach was mentioned--just as a for instance. I don't see a lot of this team back next year and if things continue the way they have there may very well be a massive trade off of vets at the deadline. Lots of people looking to move Callahan, Girardi several weeks ago before the ship started really going down for instance. I'd add in Nash--try to move him as well. He hasn't been playing with any fire--we're not going to need his half assed effort anyway.

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Old
12-21-2013, 06:39 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
How is there no thread active about this clown? Guy sucks. He's an empty suit, propped up by the elite talent he had in VAN. As bad as the roster is, his forcing this team to play "his system" with wanton disregard to how extremely poorly it fits this group warrants his firing. Bring in someone who actually understands how you need to play when you have an unskilled group of forwards.
AV literally has almost the identical record Torts had at this point in Torts' first full season. At this point in Torts' first full season, the Rangers had just finished losing 8 out of 9 games, would have 9 separate losing streaks of 3-5 games and didn't make the playoffs. I fully understand where you're coming from, but did you also advocate firing Tortorella after this few games? Like when the Rangers were 14-16-3 under Torts, looked like total crap, and had just lost 8 of 9, which included the embarrassing 8-3 loss to the Pens? Did you advocate firing Torts that season during the 2 win 8 loss run in January? Torts had that team under .500 till mid Feb... were you calling for his head, too?

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Old
12-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #25
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How anyone catch watch this disorganized, heartless, pathetic display and defend AV is completely beyond me.

Anyone who's been watched this game long enough knows what it looks like when a team loses because it is purely not talented enough...can anyone honestly watch this gong show and claim that to be the case?

I hate Sather too, but it doesn't mean that AV has been anything more than terrible as a coach.

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