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Geographic Bias in Religion

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Old
01-02-2014, 12:30 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
What have I ignored? Oh wait, you were being condescending. Sorry, holier than thou and all...
Am I? Oh, another one of your feelings as opposed to you know an argument based on anything else.

Just to make it clear to you and actually condescend - you know everyone doesn't feel exactly like you about everything, right? But yeah, keep pretending you're something you're not just to beef up your argument that only exists in fairy land.

You keep on with the dodging, moving goalposts and make it about me, someday you'll be right (or even just not wrong) about something.

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01-02-2014, 12:36 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Live and let live, that's all I've got to say about your holier-than-thou attitudes

And enough of the "but they started it" bullshit: that's akin to black people saying that it would be ok for them to enslave white people because we did it to them
Okay, now I know you're just trolling.

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01-02-2014, 12:37 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
How about giving us some examples which come anywhere close to "equaling" what religious people have done around the world and over the centuries. Perhaps Soviet Russia can serve to justify your claim in some way; but us "non-believers" in these threads making critical comments about religions and believers around the world is a far cry from what they or their leaders have actually done or what they have done in following their religious leaders.

Now of course today we have religious "individuals" who assert that they follow no religion or church, that they simply maintain their own private beliefs. Of course that makes zero sense, because the only reason they have religious beliefs is because those established religions passed the idea on to them.

I don't see any problem with being critical of any systematic ideas that have been the cause of certain troubles in the world. And if people want to criticize non-believers in the same way, then go right ahead and do so,... but provide some substance to back it up, rather than just complain because we're pointing out critical flaws with believers and their religions.
This is a good point. Maybe one could argue that atrocities weren't done in the name of religion - and were instead very much opposed by the devote spiritual followers - but it seems by supporting a system, one supports the acts. Maybe every crime conducted by a person of no belief is an argument for a lack or moral structure, but I highly doubt the crimes made in the name of atheism is equivalent (in both frequency and severity) to the amount made in the name of god.

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01-02-2014, 12:42 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Okay, now I know you're just trolling.
"I'm being a jerk but it's ok because the people I'm being a jerk to believe the same thing that this other group of people that committed attrocities in the name of these beliefs ages ago"

I know you have a difficult time grasping concepts but I think that even you should be able to wrap your head around this

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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
This is a good point. Maybe one could argue that atrocities weren't done in the name of religion - and were instead very much opposed by the devote spiritual followers - but it seems by supporting a system, one supports the acts. Maybe every crime conducted by a person of no belief is an argument for a lack or moral structure, but I highly doubt the crimes made in the name of atheism is equivalent (in both frequency and severity) to the amount made in the name of god.
And who decides when the threshold is for them to be considered "equivalent" is reached? 100 years of bad behaviour? Killing 10000 individuals?

It's just rationalizing being a douchebag, that's all that amounts to


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01-02-2014, 12:43 PM
  #80
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They don't believe the consequences are dire. A person of spiritual faith often think the consequences of apathy towards the secular is an eternity of suffering in the afterlife. The rest of us are a flock that needs saving, or so I've gathered. Every active atheist out there is trying to convince the world that there's no spiritual side, which is very narrow minded. They believe in nothing in terms of spiritual force or higher power, so I think its obvious there actions of going out of there way to press their believes on others is really just an attack/defense on major religions.

Maybe they feel they need to provide balance to the world? Oddly, that in itself is inherently spiritual
What a slanted picture you're portraying of religious belief systems, or at least the common ones.

I'm going to generalize here and not speak specifically of "atheists" but of all non-believers and say that I think you're absolutely wrong! Many or most non-believers do or certainly can think that the "consequences are dire" because there may well not be any "god" that could come to the rescue in the final moments. The religious faithful seem to think that ultimately god will save the world, and save all who have (blindly) followed the belief system that they were born into or indoctrinated into. Some religious faiths even offer salvation to individuals who have lived despicable lives, simply all they have to do, even it happens on their deathbed, is repent and offer themselves to god.

As non-believers, there is no passing the buck of responsibility for our actions. There is no salvation. If we destroy the world, we don't depend on some god that could come and save everything or at least those among us who have lived "good lives".

The world is a beautiful place and a cruel place, and only we can choose and struggle to make it a bit more of the one than it is of the other. But beyond this planet, humans aren't really anything special.

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01-02-2014, 12:45 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
"I'm being a jerk but it's ok because the people I'm being a jerk to believe the same thing that this other group of people that committed attrocities in the name of these beliefs ages ago"

I know you have a difficult time grasping concepts but I think that even you should be able to wrap your head around this
Yup. Troll.

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01-02-2014, 01:01 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What a slanted picture you're portraying of religious belief systems, or at least the common ones.

I'm going to generalize here and not speak specifically of "atheists" but of all non-believers and say that I think you're absolutely wrong! Many or most non-believers do or certainly can think that the "consequences are dire" because there may well not be any "god" that could come to the rescue in the final moments. The religious faithful seem to think that ultimately god will save the world, and save all who have (blindly) followed the belief system that they were born into or indoctrinated into. Some religious faiths even offer salvation to individuals who have lived despicable lives, simply all they have to do, even it happens on their deathbed, is repent and offer themselves to god.

As non-believers, there is no passing the buck of responsibility for our actions. There is no salvation. If we destroy the world, we don't depend on some god that could come and save everything or at least those among us who have lived "good lives".

The world is a beautiful place and a cruel place, and only we can choose and struggle to make it a bit more of the one than it is of the other. But beyond this planet, humans aren't really anything special.
I meant that the consequences were dire when trying to get me to buy what they're selling. Despite what some people are saying, I don't think all of these religious "shepherds" are trying to save my soul, but rather are trying to save their own. Some religions emphasize conversation of others as a ticket to entering their spiritual kingdom. Again, my point was if Atheist don't believe in such consequences or reasons to bother me, why do they?

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01-02-2014, 01:09 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
"I'm being a jerk but it's ok because the people I'm being a jerk to believe the same thing that this other group of people that committed attrocities in the name of these beliefs ages ago"

I know you have a difficult time grasping concepts but I think that even you should be able to wrap your head around this



And who decides when the threshold is for them to be considered "equivalent" is reached? 100 years of bad behaviour? Killing 10000 individuals?

It's just rationalizing being a douchebag, that's all that amounts to
True, but very philosophical. In reality though, the injustices caused by religious crimes cannot be understated. Relatively speaking, crimes in the name of Atheism (not by atheists) are nowhere close. Our justice system works based on circumstances for a reason.

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01-02-2014, 01:11 PM
  #84
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I meant that the consequences were dire when trying to get me to buy what they're selling. Despite what some people are saying, I don't think all of these religious "shepherds" are trying to save my soul, but rather are trying to save their own. Some religions emphasize conversation of others as a ticket to entering their spiritual kingdom. Again, my point was if Atheist don't believe in such consequences or reasons to bother me, why do they?
In a way, it's a fair question. But seriously, how are non-believers or atheists specifically bothering you? I can continue and make this or that assumption, but it's best I just let you answer the question first.

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01-02-2014, 01:14 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
I guess this is the best place to put this since we don't have a religion board, but I have always wondered this about people who follow organized religion.

Do these people not realize that their god has a bias to people born/descended from certain geographic areas after certain times? It seems that god gives a large chunk of the world a very small chance at going to heaven based on the culture they are born into. I mean what percent of christians that have heard of Islam have converted (or visa versa)? Even though some have the vast majority never will because their culture has told them for their whole life that only their beliefs are "right" and all others are "wrong". If there is one "right" religion then a lot of people don't have a fair chance to follow it even if they have heard of it. And what about people that lived in a part of the world that is/was remote and they never heard of the "right" religion? Do they deserve to burn in hell for eternity for that.

Basically if one of the major organized religions are right then god is a racist. If christians are right then you have a very low chance of going to heaven if you are not of european decent and born after about 300 AD, other wise you can burn in hell. I am only mildly familiar with the other major religions, but the same thing can be said. You will very likely only follow Islam if you are of Arabic or Middle Eastern decent and born after about the year 600, or you will likely not follow Hinduism if you are not descended from the Indian subcontinent.

I don't understand how people can think that their god can be so loving and kind when he clearly discriminates people based on when and where they were born.
well since you asked

Signs of Christís Return

This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

todays technology makes it possible for this to be seen & heard all over the world in any language.

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01-02-2014, 01:15 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Again, my point was if Atheist don't believe in such consequences or reasons to bother me, why do they?
Because believing in an unprovable idea shapes people's actions which in turn causes them to make the world a worse place for everyone.

For example, the Southern US and teaching evolution and, more generally, intellectual and technological stagnation.

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01-02-2014, 01:21 PM
  #87
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well since you asked

Signs of Christís Return

This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

todays technology makes it possible for this to be seen & heard all over the world in any language.
There is a difference between "preached" and "socially acceptable and part of the culture". People in Europe know about Islam, but how many people of european descent will actually convert? Very few because their culture has told them something else is true. You can ask the same question the other way around, and it would even be worse there. If a muslim living in the middle east wanted to convert they could face social and maybe even political persecution.

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01-02-2014, 01:22 PM
  #88
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I fail to see what bringing up past attrocities committed in the name of religion achieves in our current debate

All I'm doing is calling out the OP for behaving like a religious individual

Then Leafsdude who seems to have a pathological fear of committment and I went at it and, as it was the previous time, it went nowhere but it did lead to others chiming in and lead to MoreOrr stating that it was ok to be disrespectful to believers because of what happened hunderds of years ago

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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Because believing in an unprovable idea shapes people's actions which in turn causes them to make the world a worse place for everyone.

For example, the Southern US and teaching evolution and, more generally, intellectual and technological stagnation.
"Your system is bad because it's wrong and, because it's wrong it means people who act in accordance with it are also wrong; whereas the system that I believe in is better because it makes the world a better place by putting the emphasis on what is true"

Man you are good! I consider myself an elitist but you just kick it up to 11


What a bunch of horsehsit


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01-02-2014, 01:26 PM
  #89
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In a way, it's a fair question. But seriously, how are non-believers or atheists specifically bothering you? I can continue and make this or that assumption, but it's best I just let you answer the question first.
I know this is going to be annoying, but you're using 'non-believers or atheists' to mean existentialists. Y'all seem to be having an argument about existentialism in the guise of talking about theism and religion. It's really strange to me. The default position of most Jews (religious and not) after the Holocaust is existentialism for obvious reasons (God could not have meant the victims for that.)

In any case, not all theists believe in providence or divine interference. Likewise, not all atheists deny providence, although they may state it differently (social darwinists, for example).

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01-02-2014, 01:26 PM
  #90
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I fail to see what bringing up past attrocities committed in the name of religion achieves in our current debate

All I'm doing is calling out the OP for behaving like a religious individual

Then Leafsdude who seems to have a pathological fear of committment and I went at it and, as it was the previous time, it went nowhere but it did lead to others chiming in and lead to MoreOrr stating that it was ok to be disrespectful to believers because of what happened hunderds of years ago
Who says they won't happen again. Hell, look at what is going on in the Gaza Strip, it is happening now. Humans need to find a way to live together without blowing each other up. And BTW I have never walked up to anyone on the street and said things that I have in this thread.

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01-02-2014, 01:28 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Because believing in an unprovable idea shapes people's actions which in turn causes them to make the world a worse place for everyone.

For example, the Southern US and teaching evolution and, more generally, intellectual and technological stagnation.
Who cares what people believe? There will always be non-believers and secular ideas, so its not as if religion will conquer the world. Likewise there will always and naturally be spiritual ideas. Not only is trying to change people's ideas a futile attempt on the mass whole, but one has to ask, how is it any different than what religious people are doing?

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01-02-2014, 01:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Who cares what people believe?
People who realize that beliefs are important factors in decision-making?

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There will always be non-believers and secular ideas, so its not as if religion will conquer the world.
Depends on your meaning of "conquer".

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Likewise there will always and naturally be spiritual ideas.
There's nothing wrong with spirituality.

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Not only is trying to change people's ideas a futile attempt on the mass whole
I disagree.

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but one has to ask, how is it any different than what religious people are doing?
Because there's good reason to not believe?

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01-02-2014, 01:30 PM
  #93
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Who says they won't happen again. Hell, look at what is going on in the Gaza Strip, it is happening now. Humans need to find a way to live together without blowing each other up. And BTW I have never walked up to anyone on the street and said things that I have in this thread.
What's going on in Gaza?

The blowing-each-other-up-fest in Syria is spreading to Lebanon, and it's all about I-P?

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01-02-2014, 01:31 PM
  #94
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Who says they won't happen again. Hell, look at what is going on in the Gaza Strip, it is happening now. Humans need to find a way to live together without blowing each other up. And BTW I have never walked up to anyone on the street and said things that I have in this thread.
I don't mean to imply that you did

It's the reasonning that I find hypocritical

Not because I think the Gaza strip situation is justified but because you are trying to argue that religion is dumb

In doing so, you are arguing that your system of belief is better

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01-02-2014, 01:31 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
"Your system is bad because it's wrong and, because it's wrong it means people who act in accordance with it are also wrong; whereas the system that I believe in is better because it makes the world a better place by putting the emphasis on what is true"

Man you are good! I consider myself an elitist but you just kick it up to 11


What a bunch of horsehsit
Still being a troll, huh?

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01-02-2014, 01:36 PM
  #96
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Who cares what people believe? There will always be non-believers and secular ideas, so its not as if religion will conquer the world. Likewise there will always and naturally be spiritual ideas. Not only is trying to change people's ideas a futile attempt on the mass whole, but one has to ask, how is it any different than what religious people are doing?
Here's your answer: Are atheists trying to set up a system of authority - social, political, or otherwise? If they are, it is no different. If they are not, it is completely different.

This is why I love Hitchens, but hate Dawkins with his fawning mass of sycophants.

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01-02-2014, 01:39 PM
  #97
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What's going on in Gaza?

The blowing-each-other-up-fest in Syria is spreading to Lebanon, and it's all about I-P?
Might not be any specifics going on right now, but the whole conflict in general. You may call it international politics, but it is fuelled by religion. Religion is used to justify it, and people vote for the people wh carry out these attrocities because of religion.

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I don't mean to imply that you did

It's the reasonning that I find hypocritical

Not because I think the Gaza strip situation is justified but because you are trying to argue that religion is dumb

In doing so, you are arguing that your system of belief is better
I kinda am trying to argue religion is dumb, because of all the harm it causes.

I am not saying that spirituality or believing in god or an after life is. People can believe what they want, but when it is something they would go to war for they should re-evaluate their beliefs.

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01-02-2014, 01:39 PM
  #98
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Because believing in an unprovable idea shapes people's actions which in turn causes them to make the world a worse place for everyone.

For example, the Southern US and teaching evolution and, more generally, intellectual and technological stagnation.
Careful or people will start thinking you believe in something and that first sentence isn't really "provable".

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01-02-2014, 01:43 PM
  #99
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Careful or people will start thinking you believe in something and that first sentence isn't really "provable".
Oh, lordy lordy, I might believe in something! Oh, the horror!

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01-02-2014, 01:43 PM
  #100
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People who realize that beliefs are important factors in decision-making?

Depends on your meaning of "conquer".

There's nothing wrong with spirituality.

I disagree.

Because there's good reason to not believe?
I'm not going to strawman you like you did with me. But let's be honest, a lot of decision makers are career orientated. They'll believe whatever their constituency believes to keep their job. There's lots of secular agendas pushed, just like there's lots of spiritual ones pushed too. Am I'm pretty sure people of faith think there's good reason to believe. But you knew that, so should I add a to supplement my point?

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