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Old
01-03-2014, 11:43 AM
  #301
Natey
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Originally Posted by puckeater View Post
Performances like last night are like nukes for Subby's agent. He is gonna be EXPENSIVE! Do you sign short term for less money and have him prove his worth every year and risk losing him, resign him accordingly at the day's rates or try to sign him long term to a big fattie and possibly watch him lose his incentive and eventually become a goat?

Ah, decisions, decisions.

signed: Devils advocate.
Subban is getting a blank cheque. That's pretty much the end of that decision.

Bergevin's decision bit him in the ass. But if he turned into a Bouwmeester (pre-Blues) or Phaneuf -- people would have been crying about his 8 years, 6 per contract.

With the cap going up, giving Subban the extra $1.5M - $2M is well worth what we got.

I have no doubt that part of PKs development was IMPROVED by underpaying him.

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01-03-2014, 11:47 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
I agree with most of what you posted, but the underlined portion is a bit unfair IMO, unless you meant it in the context of Eller needing to produce after he's given an actual opportunity, with actual linemates and PP time for example.
Not sure why you're disagreeing with something you've claimed all along....What I mean is that we should have kept the EGG line together. Which Therrien broke when he should not have.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
As it is, he pulled out a GWG while playing with Moen and Prust, so not sure it's fair to ask him to match DD when PP time and linemate distribution are so uneven as it stands.
Nobody asks him to match anybody. But to show more. To prove that he could make his wingers better. To prove that he's more than Desharnais who's suppose to solely be a product of.

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Gallagher is the complete opposite story though. He's been doing all the dirty work for that line, something that, as you said, could be accomplished by putting Bourque in that position. Keeping Gallagher as the garbage man on that line, despite the clear productive chemistry he had with Galchenyuk and Eller makes no sense to me, because it seems to be Therien purposefully choosing to have a one-line team.
Which I always claimed even during that Desharnais debate. The EGG line should be together. I can't be more clear. But as far as how stupid we think Therrien could be, it is entirely possible that he really thinks a team is better with only one line working. He sees that the Desharnais like looks good and bet that the other lines will start clicking soon. I don't believe it...but clearly he does.


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Like I said, I'm fine with keeping Pacioretty locked to Desharnais. I'm NOT fine with keeping Gallagher locked to him, nor, to be frank, with the PP time distribution and the complete recent marginalization of Galchenyuk.
See my point about the EGG line.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Also, I just can't believe the idea that Therrien believes in Eller and Galchenyuk to "work it out on their own", he severely punishes both of them for the smallest infraction; honestly, if you can take a look at the PP time of the last 5 or 6 games and explain the logic behind the benching of Eller and Galchenyuk, I'd be grateful, since it completely baffles me
There was never any denying on my part that Therrien has his own little project with DD. He clearly adores him. Just like, in his own way, he had with Armstrong. Therrien do have his favorites. I don't think it's the right approach. I'm not a Therrien's fan so you will not see me saying how great Therrien is with everything he does just because I think we are unfailry judging DD's work. One do not go together. Therrien could exagerate his love towards DD while the latter could still be doing as good a job he can do. Which he is right now. Only one small problem though right now.....it is awfully tough to judge the PP.....we're 7th in the league. But somehow, the only think I keep hearing lately from some is how Pacioretty could be so much better with somebody else......or how the PP could be so much better without DD on it.....or how the team could be automatically so much better with Galchenyuk at center right away. There's some magical potions in there that, again, seems to say that without DD, we suddenly becomes a force to be reckon with. Makes no sense to me. But hey, I guess we are just 7th....we're not 1st. Damn DD. And I bet you that if we'd be 1st....I would read how we should be a better 1st....

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I'm not sure I understand this part; so because we have no line combinations that make us a cup contender (which I agree with), it's ok to just leave Galchenyuk and Eller to the pathetic treatment they're receiving?
No. As I said a thousand times whether responding to you or anybody else, put Bourque with DD and Pacioretty. The Egg line. And reunite Bournival with Pleks. If we keep Pleks next year and we find out that Bournival isn't doing the job or will solely be a 4th line...we NEED to have Pleks playing with 2 better wingers. The REAL job of this team, if they only can slowly improve, is to find 2 better wingers to Pleks. I would also replace Bourque but that's just me. THAT's a more crucial step in improving....instead of just waiving DD 'cause he was so much hindering EVERYBODY's icetime.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
C'mon man, that's a complete mischaracterization. One, yes, DD is producing, but completely ignoring the context within which he's operating isn't fair, especially when you accuse others on the team of not producing. Yes, Desharnais is doing great, but others don't get top linemates or PP time, and to ask them to produce the same as Desharnais, while not getting the same treatment (and in fact, while getting significantly WORSE treatment) he is, is unfair, IMO.
Not when I keep hearing how DD, without Pacioretty is nothing. And when I kept hearing how DD is BARELY a NHL'er while Plekanec is an incredible 2-way centerman, how Eller is just a future Plekanec and how a 2nd year kid like Galchenyuk could even take DD's place without even struggling. Let's reacquire Ben Maxwell and see if he could do what DD does with all that time, PP time and all those chances he got. Thing is let's agree that DD is finally just the 3rd best centerman of this team. Isn't it what a balanced team should be? You play the 3rd centerman with the best scoring winger....Pointswise, you still have the 3rd point getter playing on one line...the 4th on another line. Not that long ago Gionta was up there but since he has no idea how to be an offensive player anymore....he does struggle and is clearly not a Habs next year so what do you do with him? If you play him with Pleks, you affect Pleks....if you play him with Eller...you affect Eller....so what do you do? You play him with DD? DD and Gionta together? Really? So Gionta-DD-Pacioretty? Well let's try it then....unless if Gio starts producing....are we going to say that it's unfair 'cause again DD gets to play with a vet captain that is NOW much better? Fine, you don't want me to bash Pleks and Eller 'cause they play with unuseful players and because DD gets Pacioretty and Gallagher? Fine.......but only player can do that right? So if you put Pleks out there....Eller is still at a disadvantage. But DD also, yet, it's already been established that we don't care if he is or not. But if DD is at a disadvantage that much, he's hurting the team. I mean, fine we have Pleks scoring....but DD playing with the crap like Gionta and Bourque for example....if they keep hurting the team while Pleks is scoring and we are losing....are we still better off? Isn't it what some have as points they want to make? That everything is fine since Desharnais is having his points even if we don't look good? And what are Bourque's, Gionta, Prust excuses? 'Cause they don't play with Pacioretty and Gallagher? I mean, there's only 1 Pacioretty and 1 Gallagher. If anything, if I'm really a good NHL winger.....who would you love to play with? The almost barely NHL'er Desharnais? Or Plekanec? If you are somehow good....shouldn't you benefit from playing with Plekanec? And if not...shouldn't they be targeted MORE as the main problem instead of the guy who is actually putting up some points?

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Finally, no one blames Desharnais for his linemates or ice-time, obviously MT makes those calls, but the animosity being directed towards DD is more akin to the one directed at the perceived teachers' pet; sure, it's not his fault the coach seems to love him and protect him, but regardless, it still generates some ill-will.
Which was my point all along.

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Hmm, not sure about this; he keeps his job if his vets are happy, but sidelining a 3rd overall pick and giving 0 chance to a 4 million dollar a year FA signing are ok? If that's honestly the way the Habs are run, we're in big trouble :/
Well vets stil want to play. If the kids play more than them, they are not playing. Gionta is CLEARLY auditioning for a new contract....you think he'd have no problem sitting? And do we know how Brière is perceived in this locker room? I mean, we saw with Pacioretty how Desharnais was perceived by him and you have to think that Pacioretty is slowly becoming a leader in this room, with all his declarations about the medias, saying all the things everybody thinks but don't say. So I would tend to believe that if Pacioretty believes in something, while not the "Here we go, here we go" type of guy, the rest of the team would follow. Strangely enough....not sure you hear the same type of responses towards Brière. So I would believe that if Therrien does that....he has somehow the ok from the room too. By the way....while Brière was CLEARLY a mistake, not that long ago, when DD was struggling, I was amongst the first to say to not dress DD and have Brière center a line, 'cause he's a centerman....and those idiots got a guy we didn't need and played him in a position he didn't want to play in.....that probably alone makes me wonder so much about the braintrust of this group....

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Old
01-03-2014, 12:15 PM
  #303
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Spin: Eller had three more hits and his 72 for the season is tied for the team lead with P.K. Subban. He's developing a physical game to go along with his offense.


Ellers definitely progressing just fine, he'll be entering his prime the same time the team (hopefully) shed's its dead weight in 2-3 years

were all just impatient is all

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01-03-2014, 12:42 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Spin: Eller had three more hits and his 72 for the season is tied for the team lead with P.K. Subban. He's developing a physical game to go along with his offense.


Ellers definitely progressing just fine, he'll be entering his prime the same time the team (hopefully) shed's its dead weight in 2-3 years

were all just impatient is all
Eller has performed very well given the circumstances (offensively challenged linemates, tough match ups, fewer O zone starts, less PP time).

You mention the hits, I find he has laid the best hits too. He's given some tough legal open ice hits this season. He's really leveled some people.

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01-03-2014, 01:16 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure why you're disagreeing with something you've claimed all along....What I mean is that we should have kept the EGG line together. Which Therrien broke when he should not have.
What was I disagreeing with? I was asking for clarification.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody asks him to match anybody. But to show more. To prove that he could make his wingers better. To prove that he's more than Desharnais who's suppose to solely be a product of.
And I think it's a bit silly of the organization to ask him to show more while effectively hobbling him. Here's minimal PP time, Prust and Moen as your secondary winger, and a lot of defensive responsibility, now show me more! Making it even more bizarre is that it's a blatantly polar opposite strategy / citeria that was followed with Desharnais.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
There was never any denying on my part that Therrien has his own little project with DD. He clearly adores him. Just like, in his own way, he had with Armstrong. Therrien do have his favorites. I don't think it's the right approach. I'm not a Therrien's fan so you will not see me saying how great Therrien is with everything he does just because I think we are unfailry judging DD's work. One do not go together. Therrien could exagerate his love towards DD while the latter could still be doing as good a job he can do. Which he is right now. Only one small problem though right now.....it is awfully tough to judge the PP.....we're 7th in the league. But somehow, the only think I keep hearing lately from some is how Pacioretty could be so much better with somebody else......or how the PP could be so much better without DD on it.....or how the team could be automatically so much better with Galchenyuk at center right away.
Not sure that's the argument, though. Personally, I'm more baffled with why Galchenyuk isn't even on the PP anymore. Clearly, Desharnais' line is producing, but wouldn't the team be more effective with Eller/Galchenyuk as the 2nd wave?

The answer to that 2nd question, however, is usually a variant of "they need to show more and earn it". Also, we have no idea how Pacioretty would perform with anyone else, since he only plays with Desharnais.

Finally, the real questions that are being asked are "Does Desharnais need all the offensive time / PP time he gets to produce at his current clip?" and "If the answer is 'Yes', are we a better team if we follow that plan?"

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There's some magical potions in there that, again, seems to say that without DD, we suddenly becomes a force to be reckon with. Makes no sense to me. But hey, I guess we are just 7th....we're not 1st. Damn DD. And I bet you that if we'd be 1st....I would read how we should be a better 1st....
Could you please find me a quote that argues that no Desharnais makes us a Cup contender? This sounds like hyperbole to me.

The argument is that Desharnais represents an opportunity cost, and people are questioning whether the opportunities we're passing up are worth the benefit of a 40-50 point forward (bearing in mind that Desharnais is on pace for 41 points).

And yes, opportunities is plural. We're passing up on truly exploring Eller's offensive upside. We're developing a 3rd overall Center as 3rd/4th line winger. We're giving leftover PP minutes to the 2nd wave. We have 4 million dollars tied up in a free agent Center who barely plays (which must really contribute to making Montreal an attractive place to sign).

Whether you think these lost opportunities have a minimal impact or are a serious concern is a topic for debate, what they are not is: (A) an argument that without Desharnais we are the Blackhawks, or (B) bashing Desharnais and blaming him for everything.


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Not when I keep hearing how DD, without Pacioretty is nothing. And when I kept hearing how DD is BARELY a NHL'er while Plekanec is an incredible 2-way centerman, how Eller is just a future Plekanec and how a 2nd year kid like Galchenyuk could even take DD's place without even struggling.
Again, I'm going to have to ask for actual quotes arguing this, especially the highlighted claim. As far as I've seen, people are saying Galchenyuk should replace DD specifically so he can start to learn the position of being our #1 offensive center; if you have actually seen people arguing that Galchenyuk is ready to do that right now at an elite level, I'd be interested to see who said that, because none of the "regular" DD-usage detractors has ever argued that, as far as I know.

The argument has always been: what is the plan for Galchenyuk, given that his "intended role" is #1 offensive center, if Desharnais is here for 4 years and is clearly a favorite of Therrien?

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Let's reacquire Ben Maxwell and see if he could do what DD does with all that time, PP time and all those chances he got.
Sigh, this IS hyperbole. Unless you're equating Galchenyuk or Eller with Ben Maxwell, no one has remotely argued this, ever. It's yet another in seemingly endless procession of "Desharnais the poor victim" windmills people want to tilt at.

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Thing is let's agree that DD is finally just the 3rd best centerman of this team. Isn't it what a balanced team should be? You play the 3rd centerman with the best scoring winger....
Sorry, are you saying that it's normal practice in the NHL to play your top winger with your 3rd best centerman?

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not that long ago Gionta was up there but since he has no idea how to be an offensive player anymore....he does struggle and is clearly not a Habs next year so what do you do with him? If you play him with Pleks, you affect Pleks....if you play him with Eller...you affect Eller....so what do you do? You play him with DD? DD and Gionta together? Really? So Gionta-DD-Pacioretty? Well let's try it then....unless if Gio starts producing....are we going to say that it's unfair 'cause again DD gets to play with a vet captain that is NOW much better?
Wow, ok, first of all, I like how you're going on a rant that people would complain about Desharnais if he got Gionta (which he never has) and made him "much better" (which hasn't happened) and that this fictitious scenario is proof that people complain about Desharnais unreasonably. Err, what?

Second, if Desharnais is such a playmaker, why WOULDN'T he be given struggling players? You yourself set the bar, when you asked Eller:

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
...to show more. To prove that he could make his wingers better.
...yet this criteria now can't be applied to Desharnais?

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Fine, you don't want me to bash Pleks and Eller 'cause they play with unuseful players and because DD gets Pacioretty and Gallagher? Fine.......but only player can do that right? So if you put Pleks out there....Eller is still at a disadvantage. But DD also, yet, it's already been established that we don't care if he is or not. But if DD is at a disadvantage that much, he's hurting the team. I mean, fine we have Pleks scoring....but DD playing with the crap like Gionta and Bourque for example....if they keep hurting the team while Pleks is scoring and we are losing....are we still better off?
Which is exactly the question being asked!! Does reducing some of the beneficial treatment Desharnas gets make the team better?

If it doesn't, then yeah, myself an others are wrong, and that's that. If it does, then you and others are wrong, and we all move on. That's the debate!!

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Isn't it what some have as points they want to make? That everything is fine since Desharnais is having his points even if we don't look good? And what are Bourque's, Gionta, Prust excuses? 'Cause they don't play with Pacioretty and Gallagher?
Their excuse is that they're bad players. The argument is that you trade Desharnais for an upgrade on the wing, get Galchenyuk where he "should" be, and grow from there. Also, as a bit of a pre-emption, if people are going to argue that we won't get a viable Top 6 winger in return for Desharnais, isn't that a pretty damning indictment?

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I mean, there's only 1 Pacioretty and 1 Gallagher. If anything, if I'm really a good NHL winger.....who would you love to play with? The almost barely NHL'er Desharnais? Or Plekanec? If you are somehow good....shouldn't you benefit from playing with Plekanec? And if not...shouldn't they be targeted MORE as the main problem instead of the guy who is actually putting up some points?
Sorry, so Desharnais doesn't make any calls on his ice-time, but our wingers do? No one chooses who they play with, and thus your entire example is a counterfactual. None of us really have any idea how our two good wingers would play with Plekanec, since they never do.

In contrast, we HAVE seen how Gallagher plays with another Center, where he was on pace for what, a 30 goal season? How's he looking now?

EDIT: My wife has advised me to add the disclaimer that I enjoy debating, as an explanation for this extended post


Last edited by Winter Eclipse: 01-03-2014 at 01:21 PM.
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01-03-2014, 01:16 PM
  #306
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Eller has performed very well given the circumstances (offensively challenged linemates, tough match ups, fewer O zone starts, less PP time).

You mention the hits, I find he has laid the best hits too. He's given some tough legal open ice hits this season. He's really leveled some people.
Eller is perfect in the role he is given . Why want him on a #1 line where his vision of the play and passing skills are not his best assets.

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01-03-2014, 01:19 PM
  #307
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What was I disagreeing with? I was asking for clarification.



And I think it's a bit silly of the organization to ask him to show more while effectively hobbling him. Here's minimal PP time, Prust and Moen as your secondary winger, and a lot of defensive responsibility, now show me more! Making it even more bizarre is that it's a blatantly polar opposite strategy / citeria that was followed with Desharnais.



Not sure that's the argument, though. Personally, I'm more baffled with why Galchenyuk isn't even on the PP anymore. Clearly, Desharnais' line is producing, but wouldn't the team be more effective with Eller/Galchenyuk as the 2nd wave?

The answer to that 2nd question, however, is usually a variant of "they need to show more and earn it". Also, we have no idea how Pacioretty would perform with anyone else, since he only plays with Desharnais.

Finally, the real questions that are being asked are "Does Desharnais need all the offensive time / PP time he gets to produce at his current clip?" and "If the answer is 'Yes', are we a better team if we follow that plan?"



Could you please find me a quote that argues that no Desharnais makes us a Cup contender? This sounds like hyperbole to me.

The argument is that Desharnais represents an opportunity cost, and people are questioning whether the opportunities we're passing up are worth the benefit of a 40-50 point forward (bearing in mind that Desharnais is on pace for 41 points).

And yes, opportunities is plural. We're passing up on truly exploring Eller's offensive upside. We're developing a 3rd overall Center as 3rd/4th line winger. We're giving leftover PP minutes to the 2nd wave. We have 4 million dollars tied up in a free agent Center who barely plays (which must really contribute to making Montreal an attractive place to sign).

Whether you think these lost opportunities have a minimal impact or are a serious concern is a topic for debate, what they are not is: (A) an argument that without Desharnais we are the Blackhawks, or (B) bashing Desharnais and blaming him for everything.




Again, I'm going to have to ask for actual quotes arguing this, especially the highlighted claim. As far as I've seen, people are saying Galchenyuk should replace DD specifically so he can start to learn the position of being our #1 offensive center; if you have actually seen people arguing that Galchenyuk is ready to do that right now at an elite level, I'd be interested to see who said that, because none of the "regular" DD-usage detractors has ever argued that, as far as I know.

The argument has always been: what is the plan for Galchenyuk, given that his "intended role" is #1 offensive center, if Desharnais is here for 4 years and is clearly a favorite of Therrien?



Sigh, this IS hyperbole. Unless you're equating Galchenyuk or Eller with Ben Maxwell, no one has remotely argued this, ever. It's yet another in seemingly endless procession of "Desharnais the poor victim" windmills people want to tilt at.



Sorry, are you saying that it's normal practice in the NHL to play your top winger with your 3rd best centerman?



Wow, ok, first of all, I like how you're going on a rant that people would complain about Desharnais if he got Gionta (which he never has) and made him "much better" (which hasn't happened) and that this fictitious scenario is proof that people complain about Desharnais unreasonably. Err, what?

Second, if Desharnais is such a playmaker, why WOULDN'T he be given struggling players? You yourself set the bar, when you asked Eller:



...yet this criteria now can't be applied to Desharnais?



Which is exactly the question being asked!! Does reducing some of the beneficial treatment Desharnas gets make the team better?

If it doesn't, then yeah, myself an others are wrong, and that's that. If it does, then you and others are wrong, and we all move on. That's the debate!!



There excuse is that they're bad players. The argument is that you trade Desharnais for an upgrade on the wing, get Galchenyuk where he "should" be, and grow from there. Also, as a bit of a pre-emption, if people are going to argue that we won't get a viable Top 6 winger in return for Desharnais, isn't that a pretty damning indictment?



Sorry, so Desharnais doesn't make any calls on his ice-time, but our wingers do? No one chooses who they play with, and thus you're entire example is a counterfactual. None of us really have any idea how our two good wingers would play with Plekanec, since they never do.

In contrast, we HAVE seen how Gallagher plays with another Center, where he was on pace for what, a 30 goal season? How's he looking now?

EDIT: My wife has advised me to add the disclaimer that I enjoy debating, as an explanation for this extended post
Instead of having only one thread about the "Canadiens" on HF boards, they should eliminate that thread and create numerous threads about the Montreal DD's, the Montreal Ellers, the Montreal Gallaghers, & so on. Because, when I read this board, it's all about specific players and not the team, at all.

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01-03-2014, 01:29 PM
  #308
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Instead of having only one thread about the "Canadiens" on HF boards, they should eliminate that thread and create numerous threads about the Montreal DD's, the Montreal Ellers, the Montreal Gallaghers, & so on. Because, when I read this board, it's all about specific players and not the team, at all.
The guys are having an intelligent discussion and you quote this long post just to say that?

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01-03-2014, 01:34 PM
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Instead of having only one thread about the "Canadiens" on HF boards, they should eliminate that thread and create numerous threads about the Montreal DD's, the Montreal Ellers, the Montreal Gallaghers, & so on. Because, when I read this board, it's all about specific players and not the team, at all.
Shockingly, it seems you didn't actually read the post. The discussion I was having with Whitesnake touched on Desharnais, Eller, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Gionta, Bourque, Briere and Michel Therrien; basically 8 forwards and the head coach.

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01-03-2014, 01:40 PM
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No! Not another one of your jinx post!
Why do you hate meee!!!!

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01-03-2014, 01:42 PM
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Shockingly, it seems you didn't actually read the post. The discussion I was having with Whitesnake touched on Desharnais, Eller, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Gionta, Bourque, Briere and Michel Therrien; basically 8 forwards and the head coach.
It's exactly what I mean. + You are one of the most active in the threads realted specifically to DD.

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01-03-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Habstraction View Post
It's exactly what I mean. + You are one of the most active in the threads realted specifically to DD.
So in reply to a post that touches on the entire team, you make a comment about how the board should be divided into player specific threads? Not sure how that makes sense, but fortuitously I've stopped caring.

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01-03-2014, 02:10 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
So in reply to a post that touches on the entire team, you make a comment about how the board should be divided into player specific threads? Not sure how that makes sense, but fortuitously I've stopped caring.
You did not catch my irony. Sorry !

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01-03-2014, 02:22 PM
  #314
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What a game for Subban! At this point it seems clear that the longer it takes to sign Subban, the more money he'll end up getting.

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01-03-2014, 02:26 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
What a game for Subban! At this point it seems clear that the longer it takes to sign Subban, the more money he'll end up getting.
He took over the game lol, was definitely fun to watch.

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01-03-2014, 03:12 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
And I think it's a bit silly of the organization to ask him to show more while effectively hobbling him. Here's minimal PP time, Prust and Moen as your secondary winger, and a lot of defensive responsibility, now show me more! Making it even more bizarre is that it's a blatantly polar opposite strategy / citeria that was followed with Desharnais.
He plays with Galchenyuk now. That's clearly a "show me more" move than keeping him with Prust and Moen. Reuniting Galchenyuk with Eller is 2/3 of the Egg line....need to start somewhere. Besides, I do get the drift that DD was given more opportunities I get it. Reality of it all is that it's for DD, Eller and Pleks to be centering Pacioretty and Gallagher 'cause clearly it seems those are the only 2 good wingers we have.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Not sure that's the argument, though. Personally, I'm more baffled with why Galchenyuk isn't even on the PP anymore. Clearly, Desharnais' line is producing, but wouldn't the team be more effective with Eller/Galchenyuk as the 2nd wave?
If you want. No problem in trying them in PP2. Whatever works is fine with me.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
The answer to that 2nd question, however, is usually a variant of "they need to show more and earn it". Also, we have no idea how Pacioretty would perform with anyone else, since he only plays with Desharnais.
But how much could he do? So for the fun of it let's break it out and see? So what we were frustrated about as far as the EGG line is concerned, or even Bournival with Pleks....let's do it AGAIN with MaxPac and DD? Let's change everything all the time just to see?

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Finally, the real questions that are being asked are "Does Desharnais need all the offensive time / PP time he gets to produce at his current clip?" and "If the answer is 'Yes', are we a better team if we follow that plan?"
Well everybody needs time to produce. Are we a better team? Well it would seem to me that as far as the regular season is concerned, we are a better team if we win. Record is .500 lately. So we're average. But I guess coaches react more to consecutive wins and losses, which probalby is more of an indication as to where his team is than 2 wins, 1 loss, 2 losses, 1 win, that might be more of an indiciation of tons of different things. So as we're seeing, until Therrien faces some consecutive losses, we'll see how much a better team he can build with the pieces he has. He'll probably nto remove MaxPac from DD as he surely believes that those 2 are as close as a 2-headed monster you could find. But again, pretty sure that the conclusion to this whole DD mess debate is that, we want Gallagher out of that line. And we want to see more Galchy and Eller on the PP. Which, again, I have no problem with.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
The argument is that Desharnais represents an opportunity cost, and people are questioning whether the opportunities we're passing up are worth the benefit of a 40-50 point forward (bearing in mind that Desharnais is on pace for 41 points).And yes, opportunities is plural. We're passing up on truly exploring Eller's offensive upside. We're developing a 3rd overall Center as 3rd/4th line winger. We're giving leftover PP minutes to the 2nd wave. We have 4 million dollars tied up in a free agent Center who barely plays (which must really contribute to making Montreal an attractive place to sign). Whether you think these lost opportunities have a minimal impact or are a serious concern is a topic for debate, what they are not is: (A) an argument that without Desharnais we are the Blackhawks, or (B) bashing Desharnais and blaming him for everything.
But you can say that for everybody. And why the rush for Galchenyuk? Why not slowly getting him into NHL mode? And yes, it is thinking the Habs could be the Black Hawks (though I never said cup contending or Blackhawks...I said "force to be reckon with" at least on the post you are replying. Boston are a force to be reckon with...and they are not the Hawks. So "hyperbowling" works both ways.

But the opportunities we're passing off SOLELY exist because of the hatred of one player. How about the opportunity to play Bournival more? How about Bourque...how about using him with DD? How about whatever opportunity you could come with that automatically, on a team, makes one player play less than the other? Why not go further and think that acquiring Brière even means less icetime for another youngster like Leblanc or Andrighetto and that we have no idea what they'd do with the opportunity? Again, do I have to repeat that I'd have the EGG line together? Shouldn't it permit Eller to explore his offensive upside? Or does he ALSO has to play like Pacioretty? Like Pleks should also play with Pacioretty? I guess if Brière is tried at center....shouldn't he be also paired with Pacioretty to be sure to see if he could succeed? Playing Brière at center giving him Bourque and Gionta.....could we really be sure he's a failure if he doens't make those guys succeed?

As far as blaming him for everything....not sure where you are getting at...you just answered your own "hatred" remark in the post you made yourself. Desharnais is blamed because he's the teacher's pet. But then you go further in this very own post....whether it's Therrien or Desharnais....you are putting Eller and Galchenyuk development on his icetime and even succeed in putting Brière in it too when we all knew he was a mistake but yes...SHOULD have had some icetime when DD was struggling, something I never contradicted, I even suggested it. What I'm saying is that it's too soon to panic over Galchenyuk's use. And if you want to slowly add Eller to some PP2 to get some groove going...go right ahead. Will not affect DD's icetime anyway.


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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Again, I'm going to have to ask for actual quotes arguing this, especially the highlighted claim. As far as I've seen, people are saying Galchenyuk should replace DD specifically so he can start to learn the position of being our #1 offensive center; if you have actually seen people arguing that Galchenyuk is ready to do that right now at an elite level, I'd be interested to see who said that, because none of the "regular" DD-usage detractors has ever argued that, as far as I know.
You are not going to 'cause people who keeps dissecting every 2 phrases and that NOW deserves some kind of acknowledgment takes enough time that I won't take more time and sort you all of the quotes. So if you think I've made most of my posts on this board filled with lies, so be it. I know that people have continuously said that DD is nothing. That ANYBODY would have the offensive season he's having since he's playing with the best winger. And that he's a sieve defensively. Please tell me with those analysis how Galchenyuk could be worst than that if that's how DD really is? When people continuously wanting him to be waived....tell me how they were not ready to live with replacing him with Galchenyuk without seeing the difference? Isn't waiving a guy the ultimate demonstration of how bad you are? And the day that on a team that is clearly using 3 lines almost equally whether on ES or total, how the decision of going and ship out a guy who's almost a point per game lately and replace him with a guy who's not ready to be a centerman in this league but would be great for his future years......how do you not accompany that move with other "grooming " moves? Why wouldn't you groom Tinordi and Beaulieu then? Shouldn't it be time as well to see what they are made of? Unless what they are doing is that they are slowly grooming them, to each their rhythm.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
The argument has always been: what is the plan for Galchenyuk, given that his "intended role" is #1 offensive center, if Desharnais is here for 4 years and is clearly a favorite of Therrien?
What is the plan? Well let,s hope for more responsabilities as his career progresses. And as I continuously said, let's hope for less Therrien in a couple of years. But then, and while I'm not that convinced...what if Desharnais still produces? Do we give an intented role to somebody just because that was the intention? Or can we adapt? If the idea is groomin Galchy for 2, 3 years...what makes us a better team in those years? Keeping Pleks? Or trading him for good youngsters that could accompany Galchy and be also ready when he is groomed compared to an older Pleks? And when it's time to really take over, might have a combination of Galchy-Eller as your first 2 line centermen? With Pleks giving you great younger assets and maybe if we're lucky something for DD? So when Galchy is ready to take charge of this team, you'd have younger assets who are also ready so that you're a contending team for years to come?


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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Sigh, this IS hyperbole. Unless you're equating Galchenyuk or Eller with Ben Maxwell, no one has remotely argued this, ever. It's yet another in seemingly endless procession of "Desharnais the poor victim" windmills people want to tilt at.
Your point was that the only reason DD is able to do it was because of all this time and all he gets. My point is that you still need some kind of talent to do it no matter the time you get. Hence the Ben Maxwell example. And Yes....when people KEEPS wanting the guy to be waived or that just removing him from the lineup would be addition by substraction, yes, that means he's useless. Just like Ben Maxwell would be in the NHL. Besides, the guy stil had the time and the opportunities at the start of the year and was JUST like Ben Maxwell....doing nothing. But then he got it going. The context, as you've established, was the same before and after his "eclosion". He just started to play better and be more involved in the play. Yes, he also saw Gallagher on his line too. Which not only helped him but helped Pacioretty though....strangely, didn't help Gallagher himself as the kid looked MUCH better with Eller and Galchy.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Sorry, are you saying that it's normal practice in the NHL to play your top winger with your 3rd best centerman?
Don't look but again, this team has 3 balanced lines. Which the #3 is not that far from the #1. So since we don't have star centermen, it is normal practice, for that kinda team, to have something like that. But of course, for the other teams who have star centermen, it might not be. Sorry to say, but we don't have Toews-Shaw type of gap here. Not Krejci-Spooner either. Not even Seguin-Peverley. It's much closer than that. So if our 3rd line would be centered by Ryan White....nope....I would not have paired him with Pacioretty. Your top winger should be centered by a great puck distributor.....and a guy he has great chemistry with. Yes, I know...how the heck is it possible to create chemistry with others when they can't play together....well again....if so, line combinations would never end.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Wow, ok, first of all, I like how you're going on a rant that people would complain about Desharnais if he got Gionta (which he never has) and made him "much better" (which hasn't happened) and that this fictitious scenario is proof that people complain about Desharnais unreasonably. Err, what?
I just love how people who keeps asking for posters to remember the context, uses 2 phrases out of a 9 phrases statement and don't use it in context. Point was that there's always complains because DD plays with the best wingers. Well not that long ago, Gionta was also considered as the best winger pointwise. There's not like 20 points separating both Gio and Max Pac here. And we keep being remindered how great defensively Gio is doing. But then if the idea was to separate MaxPac from DD to see what he could do with Pleks and/or Eller, and in the end, the idea is to give both of those guys better roles, like taking charge really of the first 2 lines and see what they could do, that would mean giving a guy like Gionta and maybe Bournival or Bourque to DD on a real, with less icetime, 3rd line. So that way, you MIGHT have 2 lines instead of 1. To which I say, if you think that a line with Gio and Bourque and DD wouldn't be a disaster and wouldn't be a real problem with his team, I guess it goes back to being satisfied of one thing without caring about the success of this team. Pleks and Eller might be better offensively....but the overall success of the team wouldn't be there. But hey, everything is just as subjective, as the ones claming that Pacioretty might be much better with Pleks or Eller.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Second, if Desharnais is such a playmaker, why WOULDN'T he be given struggling players? You yourself set the bar, when you asked Eller:


...yet this criteria now can't be applied to Desharnais?
Hyperbole? Such a playmaker? I said he has a very good chemistry with Pacioretty didn't I? Where did I say he also had Gallagher going? I mean, people who keeps looking for hyperboles should just be more careful not using them too.

I'm asking Eller, which the majority of people believes is a much better hocke player than Desharnais, to show he can be with lesser linemates. Isn't it what better hockey players should do? I'm asking Eller and Plekanec to do it 'cause aren't they suppose to be better than DD? Shouldn't you ask your better players to be better? And if the answer is yes, but there's a freakin limit to turn a cow into a bull, I do come to the conclusion that while DD isn't perfect....we probably should start looking at unloading the cows too.....


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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Which is exactly the question being asked!! Does reducing some of the beneficial treatment Desharnas gets make the team better?
But in the REAL WORLD.....which team would take one of their hottest point getter in the past weeks....and just remove him from almost everything.....just to see? I'll use your term and say.....are you telling me it's normal practice to do that?

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Their excuse is that they're bad players. The argument is that you trade Desharnais for an upgrade on the wing, get Galchenyuk where he "should" be, and grow from there. Also, as a bit of a pre-emption, if people are going to argue that we won't get a viable Top 6 winger in return for Desharnais, isn't that a pretty damning indictment?
Tell me right now that you're getting a top 6 out of Eller. Whether it's his fault or not, the reality is that I'd love to see that. Tell me we would have gotten a Eriksson for a Eller.

As far as their "excuses" well thank you. So they are bad players. While Desharnais is finally just a okay player that if we want to win big, we should move and try to upgrade. Well...shouldn't we take care of the bad players first? And then see what an okay player could do with better players? Instead of getting rid of an okay player you know will not you incredible value....and keep the bad players on top of that. Maybe all for the sake of giving a Eller and a Galchy more icetime whether we know they can succesfully use is still up for grabs. We think they can. They probably can. But we don't know. If so, that sounds experimental year to be, fine with me, send everybody away, start from scratch, get Ekblad and McDavid and Co and we are a true contender for the next 10 years. No problem with that. But it doesn't start and end with DD. No way.


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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Sorry, so Desharnais doesn't make any calls on his ice-time, but our wingers do? No one chooses who they play with, and thus your entire example is a counterfactual. None of us really have any idea how our two good wingers would play with Plekanec, since they never do.In contrast, we HAVE seen how Gallagher plays with another Center, where he was on pace for what, a 30 goal season? How's he looking now?
Not sure where I said that wingers are choosing who they play. I'm saying that if the idea is that DD is a waste of space, a winger should benefit from playing with a superior player like Plekanec. That's the whole concept of your point. We would be a much better team with Pleks, Eller/Galchy. To a point, I don't disagree as I was one of the few against the DD contract especially the term. Made no sense to me based EXACTLY on the Galchy progression.....but not this year. Starting year 2....CLEARLY year 3 of DD contract. Not this year. And as a stop gap for this year, DD is doing NOW a heck of a job. Not at the start...he was beyond bad. But right now he is. As far as Gallagher is concerned......you can stop with that now...as I keep saying how I'd remove him from that line.

DISCLAIMER: While you probably disagree with every 2 lines of this post.....I would kindly ask you to choose the ones you desperately hate the most. I am not going to answer every line...it is extremely long. Oh and tell the wife I sympathize with her.....even if in the end, she surely agrees with everything you said.


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Old
01-03-2014, 04:00 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
DISCLAIMER: While you probably disagree with every 2 lines of this post.....I would kindly ask you to choose the ones you desperately hate the most. I am not going to answer every line...it is extremely long. Oh and tell the wife I sympathize with her.....even if in the end, she surely agrees with everything you said.
Ha ha, I picked the very top of my "disagree with" lines to respond to, cause yeah, we're nearly writing university length papers to each other. Ultimately though, I think we're not that far off from each other, more a question of form than function

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I'm asking Eller, which the majority of people believes is a much better hocke player than Desharnais, to show he can be with lesser linemates. Isn't it what better hockey players should do? I'm asking Eller and Plekanec to do it 'cause aren't they suppose to be better than DD? Shouldn't you ask your better players to be better? And if the answer is yes, but there's a freakin limit to turn a cow into a bull, I do come to the conclusion that while DD isn't perfect....we probably should start looking at unloading the cows too.....
Right, and this is the argument most "anti-DD" posters address: we ask Eller and Plekanec to be more effective with less advantages, and they pretty much have. Plekanec has more points, and Eller is tied with Desharnais.

The issue is that Therrien basically has set up a "feedback loop":

- Desharnais gets the best wingers and PP, so Desharnais is productive, so he's earned getting the best wingers and PP time, so he produces, etc.

I just find it unfair to ask players to do more with less, while holding up to the standard set by the guy asked to do less with the most, you know?

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Tell me right now that you're getting a top 6 out of Eller. Whether it's his fault or not, the reality is that I'd love to see that. Tell me we would have gotten a Eriksson for a Eller.
Again though, how is that at all a fair test? It's clearly NOT his fault (primarily) and yet that's irrelevant? How's he's being used doesn't matter, he just needs t "try harder"?

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As far as their "excuses" well thank you. So they are bad players. While Desharnais is finally just a okay player that if we want to win big, we should move and try to upgrade. Well...shouldn't we take care of the bad players first? And then see what an okay player could do with better players?
But you can't just "take care of bad players" without giving up something in return. Bourque and Gionta, at best, get us equivalent utility players. Also, we've seen what "okay" Desharnais does with a guy on pace for 47 goals!!! Is that not enough to get a fair assessment of his potential? Which as it currently stands is a 41 point season : /

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01-03-2014, 04:15 PM
  #318
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Right, and this is the argument most "anti-DD" posters address: we ask Eller and Plekanec to be more effective with less advantages, and they pretty much have. Plekanec has more points, and Eller is tied with Desharnais.

The issue is that Therrien basically has set up a "feedback loop":

- Desharnais gets the best wingers and PP, so Desharnais is productive, so he's earned getting the best wingers and PP time, so he produces, etc.

I just find it unfair to ask players to do more with less, while holding up to the standard set by the guy asked to do less with the most, you know?
Desharnais has add one of the worst stats any forward I've seen from the Habs in oh so many years. Especially the supposed offensive players. So the fact that Pleks and Eller has more points are obvious even with paired with lesser players.

I understand what you are saying. But to me, it's really as if you are putting DD with Eller and Plekanec on the same level. Yes, Therrien has done it by balancing their icetime to an almost equal value....as if they are equal. We all know that Plekanec is a better overall centerman and that Eller has the potential to also be. But my point is that since we agree that both Eller and Pleks are better, I would expect, yes, that they'd be able to do more with less. I'm obviously HYPERBOLING here....but I would expect to see Crosby do more with his wingers than Vitale. Vitale would not have made Dupuis a first line winger. Now....just before you jump on me....don't. Not comparing Pleks to Crosby or whatever, just saying that while I do applaud DD's work, I know his limitations (not icetime, his own limitations as we discussed before), and that if you give me Louis Leblanc for example, I would be expecting Plekanec to make him a much better player than DD could. Which comes back to the whole 3 balanced lines they want to do, thinking that at one point, right now, you can only do so much, you keep DD with Pac, and hope that both Pleks and Eller makes their wingers better, something DD might not be able to do.

One thing though....with all the confidence he has....while we have no idea how Pac would do with Pleks....maybe DD "could" do something with Bourque now? Plenty of things we don't know.


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Again though, how is that at all a fair test? It's clearly NOT his fault (primarily) and yet that's irrelevant? How's he's being used doesn't matter, he just needs t "try harder"?
Just responding to the "value" comment. Not analysing and blaming him for what is not his fault, how he's being used and so on. I still believe that being reunited with Galchy has to demonstrate some spark....I think we saw it against Dallas. It has to continue. But was merely responding to your top 6 value....as of now....Eller also doesn't have it. While DD doesn't have it yet too....if he is able to get some 50 points and up this year despite a terrible start....and maybe a 65-points next season, MAYBE then you'll see him getting that kind of value despite the awful size and defensive deficiencies. DD has only 1 great season to work with now. And it takes more than that to get you a top 6 already achieving forward in a trade.

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But you can't just "take care of bad players" without giving up something in return. Bourque and Gionta, at best, get us equivalent utility players. Also, we've seen what "okay" Desharnais does with a guy on pace for 47 goals!!! Is that not enough to get a fair assessment of his potential? Which as it currently stands is a 41 point season : /
But then the other guy is on pace for how many goals which would end up being his best scoring season so far. Again though, if the chemistry isn't there with Gallagher....remove him from that line. And I'll have no problem with that. Put Bourque there and see if the big guy could add at least 1 goal here and there....If anything, we could always comeback with the "How DD got Bourque going.."

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01-03-2014, 07:08 PM
  #319
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C'mon man, that's a complete mischaracterization. One, yes, DD is producing, but completely ignoring the context within which he's operating isn't fair, especially when you accuse others on the team of not producing. Yes, Desharnais is doing great, but others don't get top linemates or PP time, and to ask them to produce the same as Desharnais, while not getting the same treatment (and in fact, while getting significantly WORSE treatment) he is, is unfair, IMO.
I find your post to be very odd.

There is no such thing as fairness in professional sports. All of the athletes are making over a million dollars per year for doing something that we do for fun (for free).

Eller, Galchenyuk or whomever is your fanboy crush are victims of DD? That is laughable.

Eller proved you wrong last night because despite him being a victim, he scored a goal. Same for Gallagher the victim. He potted a nice goal.

Your fairness diatribe might gain some traction in the real world if DD's line was not producing points. Check the boxscore. DD's line scored 4 of the 6 goals last night to beat the Stars.

Unfair to who?

The Habs? No, they won last night.
You? That's why I said your post is odd and laughable.


Save up all of this crap for when the DD line goes on a 5 game streak without scoring any points. Then your whining will move to simply whining instead of pathetic whining.

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01-03-2014, 08:34 PM
  #320
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Subban is getting a blank cheque. That's pretty much the end of that decision.

Bergevin's decision bit him in the ass. But if he turned into a Bouwmeester (pre-Blues) or Phaneuf -- people would have been crying about his 8 years, 6 per contract.

With the cap going up, giving Subban the extra $1.5M - $2M is well worth what we got.

I have no doubt that part of PKs development was IMPROVED by underpaying him.
If Phaneuf is worth 7 mil for 7 years, Subban deserves at least 8/8. He is a leader on this team, articulate, always says the right things. He is a franchise defenseman.

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01-03-2014, 09:03 PM
  #321
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I dont really mind the way subban's contract status has worked out. The savings that the habs theoretically got from this short term deal will go right back into his new deal and then some. Who knows, maybe if the habs gave subban what he wanted a year ago, maybe he isn't the player he is today. That being said, he still has room to grow into a better d-man which is really exciting.

The only thing that I would find irritating at this point is if mb tries to low ball pk on a long term deal. Whatever implied agreement that exists between the two parties must be upheld, because the only thing I worry about is a disgruntled subban.

This contract applies a benchmark for mb and how he plans to handle younger core players in the future from a financial standpoint. It is important that he sticks with this recipe for other players who happen to get that cornerstone status. That way, the players will have a clear understanding of this organization's process, and thats why mb's handling of subbans next contract should be focused on rather intensely.


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01-04-2014, 11:15 AM
  #322
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What a game for Subban! At this point it seems clear that the longer it takes to sign Subban, the more money he'll end up getting.
And good for him. He deserves it.

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