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Old
01-21-2014, 02:51 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
If Schenn is moving to the wing I wouldn't mind seeing

Read-Couturier-Schenn

That line would be good defensively and also have some offensive abilities
I would also be alright with that.

People are really hating on Vinny, mostly due to age and contract. If you think Vinny is gonna be 38 and on this team, then you must also think he will be scoring ~40 pts

Because the flyers have never let an old untouchable contract just waste space.
Briere
Pronger
Gagne
Bryz

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01-21-2014, 03:12 PM
  #77
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I would also be alright with that.

People are really hating on Vinny, mostly due to age and contract. If you think Vinny is gonna be 38 and on this team, then you must also think he will be scoring ~40 pts

Because the flyers have never let an old untouchable contract just waste space.
Briere
Pronger
Gagne
Bryz
Uh...Gagne was traded as a cap dump for a cap dump and he had a sharp decline in play due to head injuries. Pronger has severe PCS and can't play so he's stuck on LTIR for eternity. Bryz and Briere were compliance buyouts which wouldn't have happened if they weren't included in the new CBA.

If compliance buyouts don't come about it's very possible we're still stuck dealing with the Bryz and Briere contracts entering this season and God knows how that ends up.

All of those guys were either buyouts or players whose careers went wayward because of severe injury issues. Gagne was the only one who actually got dumped and we ended up trading him for another bad contract. Plus, IIRC, he was on an expiring deal or close to it at the time. Lecavalier is signed for multiple years and there's no more compliance buyouts to be used.

EDIT: Lecavalier is also a free agent signing in his first year of it. None of those guys you mentioned (discounting Pronger since his career just ended due to injury) played many years for us before leaving aside from Bryz and even then there was a compliance buyout to use.

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01-21-2014, 03:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Uh...Gagne was traded as a cap dump for a cap dump and he had a sharp decline in play due to head injuries. Pronger has severe PCS and can't play so he's stuck on LTIR for eternity. Bryz and Briere were compliance buyouts which wouldn't have happened if they weren't included in the new CBA.

If compliance buyouts don't come about it's very possible we're still stuck dealing with the Bryz and Briere contracts entering this season and God knows how that ends up.

All of those guys were either buyouts or players whose careers went wayward because of severe injury issues. Gagne was the only one who actually got dumped and we ended up trading him for another bad contract. Plus, IIRC, he was on an expiring deal or close to it at the time. Lecavalier is signed for multiple years and there's no more compliance buyouts to be used.

EDIT: Lecavalier is also a free agent signing in his first year of it. None of those guys you mentioned (discounting Pronger since his career just ended due to injury) played many years for us before leaving aside from Bryz and even then there was a compliance buyout to use.
My point is we will find a way. To act like we are tied to vinny if he is awful is not factual. That has never happened to us.

Also, I'm not convinced he will be awful -- he had a very promising start before the injury. He was actually the only guy playing decent hockey.

Also, same goes for streit: people need to stop the doom and gloom routine like we can't wiggle out of it and re-use the space elsewhere.

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01-21-2014, 05:31 PM
  #79
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People keep mentioning Lecavalier as being injured or something, but it seems like grasping at straws to me. There's been no actual indication or hint from the player himself or the organization that he's hampered in any way and on top of that the organization has no real reason to rush him back from injury only to shuffle him around the lineup because he's ineffective and doesn't fit anywhere.

Even when Lecavalier is at his best he's only a 60 P guy (including PP time) who can't play a two-way game and seemingly can't seem to win face-offs anymore. That's the best we can expect from him unless you want to get into some argument about intangibles. That's not a player I want if it's the absolute best he can bring, especially when they're in their mid 30's, signed for five years, and have a history of injuries in recent seasons.

He didn't get bought out by Tampa just because he had a high cap hit. With his history with the franchise and with his production in the past they definitely would have kept him if he offered anything more then 60 points in any given season. The way he is now sounds exactly like Tampa fans described him as.
The whole playing while injured is a reach, I agree. If you're injured don't play, you are only hurting your team. He's literally bringing down any line he's put on.

If he gets used to the wing, will it be different? Only time will tell I guess... I have my doubts though.

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01-22-2014, 07:56 PM
  #80
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He looks like a brunette Ryan Gosling I guess.

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01-22-2014, 10:10 PM
  #81
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The whole playing while injured is a reach, I agree. If you're injured don't play, you are only hurting your team. He's literally bringing down any line he's put on.

If he gets used to the wing, will it be different? Only time will tell I guess... I have my doubts though.
At this point it's been a long time since he came back from injury. There would be literally no reason to play through injury not even halfway through the regular season just to be shuffled around the lineup and look bad in the process. At this point an injury would be a lot more evident considering how long it's been.

The whole "he's playing injured" thing is a huge reach. Kind of just feels like a way to justify his contract he got and to ignore that this isn't a far cry from his play in Tampa.

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01-22-2014, 11:58 PM
  #82
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At this point it's been a long time since he came back from injury. There would be literally no reason to play through injury not even halfway through the regular season just to be shuffled around the lineup and look bad in the process. At this point an injury would be a lot more evident considering how long it's been.

The whole "he's playing injured" thing is a huge reach. Kind of just feels like a way to justify his contract he got and to ignore that this isn't a far cry from his play in Tampa.
You're probably right, but he was pretty peeved tonight when he took a baby crosscheck to the lower back. Perhaps it's still bothering him a little? Maybe?

I think it's mostly him playing out his position and having no chemistry with his line mates. Though I won't absolve him of any blame, as he has not been playing very good and at times tries to do too much. I think he'll turn it around, though (at least I hope he does).

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01-23-2014, 08:39 AM
  #83
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You're probably right, but he was pretty peeved tonight when he took a baby crosscheck to the lower back. Perhaps it's still bothering him a little? Maybe?

I think it's mostly him playing out his position and having no chemistry with his line mates. Though I won't absolve him of any blame, as he has not been playing very good and at times tries to do too much. I think he'll turn it around, though (at least I hope he does).
I think we are all underestimating what injury he was coming back from and how early he came back from it. It's his lower back, and a vertebrae to boot. It effects everything you do as a player, shooting, stick handling, skating. Since his fast "recovery" he looked slow out there, but he is still trying to do the things he does at full speed. Although the injury isn't anything to worry about now in the future, how do we know that it isn't 100%. We know we have seen better out of Vinny, and right now something is troubling him. Not just the lack of chemistry with teammates. Maybe it's mental, but more than likely I think it stems back to his back.

He has made strides in the past couple of games and has looked faster. Also to go along with what you said about Harrison hitting his back, he was pretty pissed for a simple check in the back. Probably a good indicator that it is still bothering him. It was a pretty serious injury.

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01-23-2014, 09:11 AM
  #84
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I just had a premonition Vinny scores 2 goals in tonight's game.

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01-23-2014, 06:11 PM
  #85
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What are the chances that Vincent Lecavalier is moved at the deadline to a contending team?

What would Philly fans be looking for from a team like Vancouver? Vinny has played for Torts before and the Canucks have been seeking a centre like him for some time. I know he's getting a bit older now but his contract is in line with a lot of the core members of the team and the Canucks will have some space at the deadline for a move like that.

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01-26-2014, 01:29 AM
  #86
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Could Vinny be the first player who has had his contract bought out by his team in back to back years?

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01-26-2014, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Siludin View Post
What are the chances that Vincent Lecavalier is moved at the deadline to a contending team?

What would Philly fans be looking for from a team like Vancouver? Vinny has played for Torts before and the Canucks have been seeking a centre like him for some time. I know he's getting a bit older now but his contract is in line with a lot of the core members of the team and the Canucks will have some space at the deadline for a move like that.
He has a NMC, so I have no idea if he would waive it or not. I have no idea what Van would be willing to give up though.

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01-26-2014, 02:14 AM
  #88
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What are the chances that Vincent Lecavalier is moved at the deadline to a contending team?

What would Philly fans be looking for from a team like Vancouver? Vinny has played for Torts before and the Canucks have been seeking a centre like him for some time. I know he's getting a bit older now but his contract is in line with a lot of the core members of the team and the Canucks will have some space at the deadline for a move like that.
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01-27-2014, 12:06 PM
  #89
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I agree with Morganti's characterization of Vinny. I know he has been injured but it is not like this guy is going to get younger....

When Holmgren acquired the three live crew of Vinny, Streit and Emery to much fanfare I wasn't overly impressed. Always said it was just more of a lateral move to cover up what needed to be done the prior season and wasn't.

All that cash freed up from Briere and Bryzastor and really the only thing we have to show for it as far as a decent ROI...is Streit and even that it debateable.

More reasons for Holmgren to GTFO of his GM duties...

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One of the problems has been Vinny Lecavalier, the prized catch in the free agent market. He has some big goals, but overall he doesnít have the legs from start to finish. And any hope that he could be effective at wing appears wrong headed. He doesnít look able to stop and start with speed as a winger.

As a result, he has been placed back at center for now, where he can move a little more freely, but that isnít the best scenario for the team. Neither is that fact the Lecavalier isnít just a one-year addition.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/s...ed-Flyers.html

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01-27-2014, 01:53 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
I agree with Morganti's characterization of Vinny. I know he has been injured but it is not like this guy is going to get younger....

When Holmgren acquired the three live crew of Vinny, Streit and Emery to much fanfare I wasn't overly impressed. Always said it was just more of a lateral move to cover up what needed to be done the prior season and wasn't.

All that cash freed up from Briere and Bryzastor and really the only thing we have to show for it as far as a decent ROI...is Streit and even that it debateable.

More reasons for Holmgren to GTFO of his GM duties...
of course 2 of them are band aids. emery is an ok backup.

there is no award given for saving cap space. it's not like these guys are taking time from viable prospects. better a band aid than ahl scrubs.

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01-27-2014, 04:19 PM
  #91
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of course 2 of them are band aids. emery is an ok backup.

there is no award given for saving cap space. it's not like these guys are taking time from viable prospects. better a band aid than ahl scrubs.
2 band aids that are signed to 4 and 5 year deals. While Vinny declines he will bring down the younger Core of Forwards we have. Streit needs to be sheltered on D, unfortunately our D corps in general is a mess.

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01-27-2014, 04:49 PM
  #92
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of course 2 of them are band aids. emery is an ok backup.

there is no award given for saving cap space. it's not like these guys are taking time from viable prospects. better a band aid than ahl scrubs.
Holmgren wasn't signing vets to a young, rebuilding team for veteran presence while they lost. He was trying to compete with a team that wasn't ready to, as evidenced by one coach firing and being a fringe playoff team for the majority of the season. That's not smart.

A band-aid deal doesn't last four or five years while carrying a declining player into their late 30's. That's not a "band-aid". That's a bad contract.

No awards are given out for strictly saving cap space, but saving cap space and making good deals allows flexibility with your roster and will ensure your team isn't handcuffed long-term which can be one part of winning the President's Trophy or Stanley Cup. Which are awards.

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01-27-2014, 05:20 PM
  #93
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Holmgren wasn't signing vets to a young, rebuilding team for veteran presence while they lost. He was trying to compete with a team that wasn't ready to, as evidenced by one coach firing and being a fringe playoff team for the majority of the season. That's not smart.

A band-aid deal doesn't last four or five years while carrying a declining player into their late 30's. That's not a "band-aid". That's a bad contract.

No awards are given out for strictly saving cap space, but saving cap space and making good deals allows flexibility with your roster and will ensure your team isn't handcuffed long-term which can be one part of winning the President's Trophy or Stanley Cup. Which are awards.
4 or 5 years really isn't a long term, especially when it's a front-loaded contract.

We can ship either of those guys to cap-floor teams if we need to. (In 2 years we could move Vinny to a team looking to save 1mil a year, for 3 years)

It's ironic that the flyers mgmt gets so much flack for "not understanding the cap" while also being the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams, with respect to finding loop holes and pushing the rules.

Having an infinite piggy bank helps.

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01-27-2014, 05:33 PM
  #94
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4 or 5 years really isn't a long term, especially when it's a front-loaded contract.

We can ship either of those guys to cap-floor teams if we need to. (In 2 years we could move Vinny to a team looking to save 1mil a year, for 3 years)

It's ironic that the flyers mgmt gets so much flack for "not understanding the cap" while also being the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams, with respect to finding loop holes and pushing the rules.

Having an infinite piggy bank helps.
Uh...what? They didn't even know the Pronger contract was 35+ until after they signed it. They also have more money committed to the D then pretty much the entire league (probably actually the entire league) despite D being the weakest part of the team by far. You can't say something as crazy as that and not provide examples. What has Homer done under his tenure that makes him look savvy and cutting edge with respect to finding loopholes that also overcomes those things I've mentioned?

The max a free agent (like Lecavalier or Streit) can be signed to now is 7 years...one was signed four 4 and the other 5 so they are most definitely long-term deals by the new CBA standard. The only way to go higher then that is offer a 6 or 7 year deal. This is in a league where things change greatly year-to-year and two players in their early to mid thirties so by those two facts and the new length of deals those are definitely long-term to some degree.

It also doesn't matter if he can get out of those contracts down the line or not. Fixing a mistake still means you made the mistake and had to live with it for a while. If he trades Lecavalier two years down the line he still made a mistake, we still have to end up dealing with Lecavalier for what would be two or three years in that scenario, and he might have to take on a bad contract to deal one. Assuming he can or does deal the contract down the line anyhow.

I can throw around potential fixes that he could make down the line, but that doesn't make it better or change anything. Even when he used a compliance buyout on Bryzgalov it was still a disaster.


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01-27-2014, 07:55 PM
  #95
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Uh...what? They didn't even know the Pronger contract was 35+ until after they signed it. They also have more money committed to the D then pretty much the entire league (probably actually the entire league) despite D being the weakest part of the team by far. You can't say something as crazy as that and not provide examples. What has Homer done under his tenure that makes him look savvy and cutting edge with respect to finding loopholes that also overcomes those things I've mentioned?

The max a free agent (like Lecavalier or Streit) can be signed to now is 7 years...one was signed four 4 and the other 5 so they are most definitely long-term deals by the new CBA standard. The only way to go higher then that is offer a 6 or 7 year deal. This is in a league where things change greatly year-to-year and two players in their early to mid thirties so by those two facts and the new length of deals those are definitely long-term to some degree.

It also doesn't matter if he can get out of those contracts down the line or not. Fixing a mistake still means you made the mistake and had to live with it for a while. If he trades Lecavalier two years down the line he still made a mistake, we still have to end up dealing with Lecavalier for what would be two or three years in that scenario, and he might have to take on a bad contract to deal one. Assuming he can or does deal the contract down the line anyhow.

I can throw around potential fixes that he could make down the line, but that doesn't make it better or change anything. Even when he used a compliance buyout on Bryzgalov it was still a disaster.
The great hfboards pronger contract..
In what way does the 35+ rule change anything? That was an amazing contract and you all know it. It almost won us a cup, and were it not for a FREAK ACCIDENT (not relating to age) that contract would be worth it today.

No argument about bryz here, terrible signing. But he's not on the pay roll anymore. (Thank god)

Guys like Streit & Vinny aren't "mistakes" if they don't pan out. They are good bets, that every team in the league would've wanted to take. Even if those bets fail (too early to tell) they will be worth assets in 2 years.

Also, that money can't lace up and play for us. Why would we not commit it when we have the luxury of getting those sought after assets?


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 01-27-2014 at 10:37 PM. Reason: Fixed quote feature
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01-27-2014, 09:08 PM
  #96
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The great hfboards pronger contract..
In what way does the 35+ rule change anything? That was an amazing contract and you all know it. It almost won us a cup, and were it not for a FREAK ACCIDENT (not relating to age) that contract would be worth it today.

No argument about bryz here, terrible signing. But he's not on the pay roll anymore. (Thank god)

Guys like Streit & Vinny aren't "mistakes" if they don't pan out. They are good bets, that every team in the league would've wanted to take. Even if those bets fail (too early to tell) they will be worth assets in 2 years.

Also, that money can't lace up and play for us. Why would we not commit it when we have the luxury of getting those sought after assets?
You failed to address like everything I said. I wasn't commenting on how good the Pronger contract was, I just said that they didn't even know what they were doing with it evidenced by the fact that they didn't even know it was a 35+ contract.

In what way are the Flyers and specifically Homer "the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams, with respect to finding loop holes and pushing the rules"?

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01-27-2014, 10:07 PM
  #97
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Could Vinny be the first player who has had his contract bought out by his team in back to back years?

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01-27-2014, 10:42 PM
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Uh...what? They didn't even know the Pronger contract was 35+ until after they signed it. They also have more money committed to the D then pretty much the entire league (probably actually the entire league) despite D being the weakest part of the team by far. You can't say something as crazy as that and not provide examples. What has Homer done under his tenure that makes him look savvy and cutting edge with respect to finding loopholes that also overcomes those things I've mentioned?

The max a free agent (like Lecavalier or Streit) can be signed to now is 7 years...one was signed four 4 and the other 5 so they are most definitely long-term deals by the new CBA standard. The only way to go higher then that is offer a 6 or 7 year deal. This is in a league where things change greatly year-to-year and two players in their early to mid thirties so by those two facts and the new length of deals those are definitely long-term to some degree.

It also doesn't matter if he can get out of those contracts down the line or not. Fixing a mistake still means you made the mistake and had to live with it for a while. If he trades Lecavalier two years down the line he still made a mistake, we still have to end up dealing with Lecavalier for what would be two or three years in that scenario, and he might have to take on a bad contract to deal one. Assuming he can or does deal the contract down the line anyhow.

I can throw around potential fixes that he could make down the line, but that doesn't make it better or change anything. Even when he used a compliance buyout on Bryzgalov it was still a disaster.
It actually is the entire league. Last I checked, even without Mez on the roster it would still be the most expensive D in the league.

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01-27-2014, 10:48 PM
  #99
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You failed to address like everything I said. I wasn't commenting on how good the Pronger contract was, I just said that they didn't even know what they were doing with it evidenced by the fact that they didn't even know it was a 35+ contract.

In what way are the Flyers and specifically Homer "the most savvy and cutting edge of all the teams, with respect to finding loop holes and pushing the rules"?
Maybe they just didn't give a **** about the contract being 35+ because it made no difference in the exit strategies available to them? Thinking that the Flyers org doesn't know how to manage the cap is pure nonsense. They will always find a way to create the cap space needed to get a player they want.

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01-27-2014, 11:14 PM
  #100
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Dudes been awful. It's Funny watching people try and talk the organization out of another bad contract by hypothesizing that that might be able to dump the contract.

If that's not the sign of a bad contract after only half a year, I don't know what is.

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