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Discuss all things related to Miller here. (mod)

View Poll Results: Should the Blues acquire Ryan Miller?
Absolutely - Rental or not, he's a needed upgrade 36 36.73%
Yes - But only with the intention of signing him long-term 36 36.73%
No - He's not the goalie upgrade the Blues need 7 7.14%
No - The Blues current situation in goal is fine. 19 19.39%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-06-2014, 03:45 AM
  #76
taylord22
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I'll just use the boilerplate response for this question:
I would be really happy to acquire Miller via Halak, a pick, and a far out prospect — as long as he's willing to sign to an Armstrong contract.

My hesitations this year:

Any goaltender can capture magic in the playoffs
Any goaltender can get the shakes in the playoffs

My hesitations post this year:

Some great goalies continue to be top 15 past 33 — even though they're paid as a top 5
Most great goalies decline due to nags and mechanical failures post 30s

Mortgaging a small chunk of the future, and (potentially) a large portion of the salary cap, feels like a crapshoot when you're talking about upgrading a good 30ish goalie for a great 30ish goalie. Add in the fact that both Halak and Miller have hinted at being very mental goalies and you're adding another element of uncertainty to an already cloudy proposition. Anything exceeding the boilerplate response and I think you're getting into territory/behavior that is unwise for the franchise.


Last edited by taylord22: 01-06-2014 at 09:56 AM.
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01-06-2014, 04:52 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I'll just use the boilerplate response for this question:
I would be really happy to acquire Miller via Halak, a pick, and a far out prospect — as long as he's willing to sign to an Armstrong contract.

My hesitations this year:

Any goaltender can capture magic in the playoffs
Any goaltender can get the shakes in the playoffs

My hesitations post this year:

Some great goalies continue to be top 15 past 33 — even thought they're paid as a top 5
Most great goalies decline due to nags and mechanical failures post 30s

Mortgaging a small chunk of the future, and (potentially) a large portion of the salary cap, feels like a crapshoot when you're talking about upgrading a good 30ish goalie for a great 30ish goalie. Add in the fact that both Halak and Miller have hinted at being very mental goalies and you're adding another element of uncertainty to an already cloudy proposition. Anything exceeding the boilerplate response and I think you're getting into territory/behavior that is unwise for the franchise.
I agree with this. There are too many possible problems including Miller's high Dollar and cap cost, and player assets loss, for a questionable difference in quality of play. I'd go with Halak and Elliott, and expect the forwards to keep scoring and the team defence to continue to play well.

It seems that The Blues have turned a corner this season (especially during the injury period) and learned how to play winning hockey, how to be "hungry", how to want to win and go after it. I think they'll do very well in the playoffs, and question how much difference Miller would make over using the "hotter" of Halak or Elliott.

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01-06-2014, 05:12 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanick View Post
I proposed this in the All purpose Miller thread and it was accepted by a few Buffalo fans.



Ryan Miller
2014 Wild 2nd



Jaro Halak
2014 1st
2014 3rd

We would lose our first round pick which will likely be in the 25-29 range anyway. We still have the Oilers 2nd which will be between 30-35, then we would have the Wild 2nd which would probably be in the 47-52 range and then our own which would be in the 55-59 range.

This way we don't have to touch any of our prospects and since we have the Oilers 2nd we won't drop that much off of our projected 1st round spot and we gain yet another 2nd round. One thing to keep in mind is we have had quite a bit of success in the 2nd round over recent years (Backes obviously, then Jaskin, Rattie, Allen, Vannelli, Carrier and Edmundson are all solid prospects.
When can we get this done?

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01-06-2014, 08:22 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
They have scored the 2nd most goals of any team in the league. I think the Blues have the depth to score. We have 2 young guys who seem to be maturing into special players in Schwartz and Tarasenko. I see no reason to believe this team wont continue to score in the playoffs.

BTW you do realize we are tied for #3 in the lowest amount of goals give up as well don't you?

As I have said before the only thing that worries me about this team is their 1st period play or lack of it.
I agree with Hooligan actually. I dont get it, I dont know if Im naive, or you are too pesimistic people but I dont see that big of a goaltending problem. the blues are 2nd best in goal scoring, 4th best in goals against and first in 5 on 5 Goals For/Against Ratio. Im sure there are a lot of teams that would love to have your "goaltending problem" . If the offense can score, Im sure Halak and Elliott are both able to hold their playoff GAA around 2. Me personally I would give them a chance and then, if they really screw up and actually are the reason why blues lost in the playoffs, then Id say okay you need an upgrade in net. Millers a good goalie but as some have said hes similar to Halak and Im sure people would start bashing him after some time anyway, you are never satisfied and its funny how some of you are acting like a GM, I mean, Im pretty sure there are teams who are interested in Miller too and actually need a goalie more than you do so theyd be willing to give more for him

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01-06-2014, 09:33 AM
  #80
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While I think Brian Elliott is an underrated goalie, people comparing his stats to Miller's need to consider who Miller is playing behind. This team is set up too well to not at least explore improving its goaltending.

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01-06-2014, 11:37 AM
  #81
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I would be interested in trading for Miller but only if the cost wasn't outrageous (say the Blues 1st along with a C prospect) AND Miller was willing to sign with the Blues to a reasonable extension as a part of the trade. Getting those two reasonable things to happen at the same time is what makes this hard for me.

I also keep reminding myself that we really haven't seen what Halak can do in the playoffs for the Blues. He's played 1 full playoff game and got injured in his 2nd (bowled over by Jackman in the SJ series). I would be perfectly fine with going with Halak/Elliott in the playoffs this season and if it doesn't work out then explore the goalie options in the off-season. The Blues could very well sign Miller in the off-season and not have to give up anything via trade and would then just let both of Halak/Elliott walk.

The bottom line is that I trust Army to do what he thinks is best. He doesn't seem to panic so if he does pull the trigger I think it will only be if it makes sense for the Blues in terms of both what the cost would be to get him (picks, players going the other way) as well as what it would cost to keep him (his salary & term demands) and how that would impact what the team could afford at other positions (paying Miller big money likely leads to not being able to retain other players which then leaves holes in other areas).

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01-06-2014, 11:52 AM
  #82
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One of the best arguments anyone can make for acquiring Miller is that if in the playoffs the Blues get the kind of goaltending they received in the 6-5 win against Chicago they're not going to win a 7 game series against them. Particularly the 3rd goal Halak gave up and the 5th goal Elliott gave up. While every team needs good goaltending in the playoffs, there are certain teams where the position becomes even more tantamount (like Chicago) because no matter how good a team is defensively, the oppositions skill level translates into more quality scoring chances relative to other opponents. All things being equal, are you more comfortable with Elliott, Halak, or Miller facing Sharp, Toews, Kane, and Hossa seven times? We're talking 'playoff Hawks' not 'effing around during the regular season Hawks.' The point is that goaltending is going to be a huge deal versus Chicago no matter how prolific our regular season offensive stats turn up.

With the way the season is shaping up, Armstrong is perfectly within reason to go into short-term-rental mode if he's not comfortable with our duo heading into the playoffs even if he knows at the time of the trade that signing Miller isn't happening. If he attaches conditions (I like that idea) to the pick based on leverage with a lack of suitors at the deadline and it eventually costs a first round pick (while Miller heads to free agency) no one will care if the Blues go on a run. If Miller even for a second considers this "3 year" short term deal to stay with a contender that some are fantasizing about, and let's say he's coming off a great Olympics and playoff where he wins 3 rounds, we're talking $10-11 million salary.

The Blues would gamble on Miller for this ONE run and I would be perfectly fine with that if the price is reasonable (conditional first rounder + middling prospect) and if Army still didn't fully trust either Elliott/Halak come the deadline.

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01-06-2014, 12:16 PM
  #83
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I wouldn't be opposed to getting Miller at all for a fair pricefor a rental. Since apparently he wants Lundqvist money after this season, I'd be hesitant to give up to much at the TDL. He's a great goalie, and I'd feel more comfortable with him in net then either Jaro or Elliott. But, not at the expense of making him the highest paid player on the team and one of the highest paid goalies in the league at the age of 33. I say all this, but really, give me a cup and that would cure whatever ails me.

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01-06-2014, 12:28 PM
  #84
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Meanwhile, Brian Elliott was named 2nd star for the week on NHL.com.

Quote:
Elliott posted a 3-0-0 record with a 1.00 goals-against average, .962 save percentage and one shutout to backstop the Blues to a trio of victories, establishing a franchise record for the best 41-game start in team history (29-7-5, 63 points). He made 24 saves in a 2-1 triumph over the Minnesota Wild Dec. 31. Elliott then recorded 30 saves for his 24th career shutout – and 15th with the Blues, one shy of tying Glenn Hall for the second-most in club history – in a 5-0 win over the Los Angeles Kings Jan. 2. He closed the week by making 22 saves in 6-2 victory over the Columbus Blue Jackets Jan. 4, extending his franchise-record home winning streak to 13 games (dating to April 16, 2013). The 28-year-old Newmarket, Ont., native has appeared in 18 games this season, compiling a 12-1-2 record with a 1.85 goals-against average, .928 save percentage and three shutouts.

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01-06-2014, 01:55 PM
  #85
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I like Miller and think he would be an upgrade, BUT... he has done very little in the playoffs and will not likely be resigned next year.

Honestly, I get that everyone wants to upgrade the net. In fact, I feel it would be the best upgrade at this point, but... I think we are targeting the wrong goalie.

I would go after Brodeur.

I feel this way for a couple of reasons - first, cost to acquire would be low - maybe our2nd or 3rd rounder.

Next - having a very good year - despite his age he is still playing very well.

Finally, post season proven. HE JUST WINS in the post season. Likely the best playoff goalie in the past 20 years.

For him, give him another shot at the cup.

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01-06-2014, 01:59 PM
  #86
taylord22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL fan in IA View Post
I would be interested in trading for Miller but only if the cost wasn't outrageous (say the Blues 1st along with a C prospect)
What are those?

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01-06-2014, 02:10 PM
  #87
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What are those?
Players like Ponich and McRae

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01-06-2014, 02:16 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
Players like Ponich and McRae
...my mistake. I thought he was talking about offering a center prospect. Should have known better.

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01-06-2014, 02:41 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1 View Post
I like Miller and think he would be an upgrade, BUT... he has done very little in the playoffs and will not likely be resigned next year.

Honestly, I get that everyone wants to upgrade the net. In fact, I feel it would be the best upgrade at this point, but... I think we are targeting the wrong goalie.

I would go after Brodeur.

I feel this way for a couple of reasons - first, cost to acquire would be low - maybe our2nd or 3rd rounder.

Next - having a very good year - despite his age he is still playing very well.

Finally, post season proven. HE JUST WINS in the post season. Likely the best playoff goalie in the past 20 years.

For him, give him another shot at the cup.
I don't know if .903 is a "good" year, i certainly don't see it as that. I don't see why he wouldn't want to retire on the Devils, either.

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01-06-2014, 03:09 PM
  #90
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Trading for Miller would be kind of a crapshoot. Most NHL goalies, if they get hot at the right time, are good enough to win a cup behind a strong team. This includes Elliot and Halak. Trading for Miller, you're just rolling the dice that he'll catch fire at the right time.

If we can get him strictly at rental prices (2nd rounder?) then I'd be alright with it, but no way should we think of trading for him and resigning him unless he's willing to sign for somewhere in the $5-5.5m range (edit: I'm sure he isn't, so I wouldn't want him re-signed). We have too many players to re-sign already and a pretty big hole to fill at center next offseason and Miller isn't anywhere near enough goalie to be worth more than that to the Blues.

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01-06-2014, 03:34 PM
  #91
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The Blues have been great this year, but I'm concerned that we might just be beating up on bad teams too much while not dominating as much against playoff teams (The record against California teams has been brought up a ton). We've beaten Chicago 3 times, but twice in the SO and the other one was only by one goal. Our wins over the Bruins and Penguins were both by 1 goal, and I felt Boston severely outplayed us that game.

I would love to see Halak+Elliott's stats against these teams and compare them to Miller's. If Miller can help us compete better against CHI, ANA, SJ, LA, BOS, and Pitt, then he is easily worth going after to me.

Lets say we could get Miller for just our own 1st. How would we make that work with the cap? I think we could ship out Halak + Leopold (To the Caps maybe?) and make it work, but that would really thin out our defense. Leopold also has a NTC.

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01-06-2014, 03:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Stopsight View Post
I don't know if .903 is a "good" year, i certainly don't see it as that. I don't see why he wouldn't want to retire on the Devils, either.
Be careful when looking at save percentage.

It has nothing to do with quality scoring chances. I look more at GAA personally and 2.3 isn't bad at all considering the Devils are at the bottom 5 in the east.

I think he still has one more run in him.

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01-06-2014, 04:09 PM
  #93
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Even if Miller does maintain that save percentage, which is unlikely, it'd be only the second time in his career he's posted a season SV% over .920. If he regularly played this well, you'd have a point. However, his numbers are nearly identical to Halak's and even over a short time I think it's pretty obvious we're getting another goalie who doesn't live up to his hype.

In fact, Halak's playoff performances have been better than Miller's. Both of their successes coming years ago.

Miller's a bit bigger and his tool set is well-respected in this league, but aside from 2009-2010 when he put up decent numbers, he's never really proven he can play as well as people assume he will. He may fare much better in our defensive system, but it's not like we're getting an upgrade in net, just merely a different body that has hype even higher than Halak's despite having marginally worse career numbers.

I don't see how the trade improves the team. Miller has always been adequate, never great. I feel like I want to trade Halak for an upgrade to get not only consistency, but better overall skills. Miller is not that guy.
I feel like you are leaving out the team that Miller has played his career for. Buffalo hasn't just been bad this past season. They've been in the bottom five for about 8 years. Of course Miller's numbers are not going to be amazing, look at the team he is playing for. You could put Patrick Roy in his prime in net for that team and I bet he would have lower numbers than Halak.

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01-06-2014, 04:26 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanick View Post
I proposed this in the All purpose Miller thread and it was accepted by a few Buffalo fans.



Ryan Miller
2014 Wild 2nd



Jaro Halak
2014 1st
2014 3rd

We would lose our first round pick which will likely be in the 25-29 range anyway. We still have the Oilers 2nd which will be between 30-35, then we would have the Wild 2nd which would probably be in the 47-52 range and then our own which would be in the 55-59 range.

This way we don't have to touch any of our prospects and since we have the Oilers 2nd we won't drop that much off of our projected 1st round spot and we gain yet another 2nd round. One thing to keep in mind is we have had quite a bit of success in the 2nd round over recent years (Backes obviously, then Jaskin, Rattie, Allen, Vannelli, Carrier and Edmundson are all solid prospects.
Sabres fan coming in peace but that 2nd round pick is an early 2nd round pick and worth a lot more because Sabres are bottom of the barrel. I understand you have the high ground on any trade with Buffalo but I rather see Miller walk than take a first in a draft year incredibly weak and give up an early second. We gain not much with that first except moving up 4-5 spots. Big whoop. 2015 first more likely.

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01-06-2014, 04:28 PM
  #95
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Sabres fan coming in peace but that 2nd round pick is an early 2nd round pick and worth a lot more because Sabres are bottom of the barrel. I understand you have the high ground on any trade with Buffalo but I rather see Miller walk than take a first in a draft year incredibly weak and give up an early second. We gain nothing for that except moving up 4-5 spots.
It's Minnesota's, not yours, so a mid 2nd.

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01-06-2014, 04:29 PM
  #96
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It's Minnesota's, not yours, so a mid 2nd.
ah misread, my bad.

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01-06-2014, 04:30 PM
  #97
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ah misread, my bad.
Still not the most ideal for you guys. I don't think something like that would actually happen.

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01-06-2014, 06:56 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
2000 draft
28 Justin Williams
29 Niklas Kronwall

2001 draft
32. Derek Roy

2002 draft
24 Alexander Steen (forward)

2003 draft
24 Mike Richards
28 Corey Perry
33 Loui Eriksson

2004 draft
26. Cory Schneider
29 Mike Green

2005 draft
24 T. J. Oshie
33 James Neal
35 Marc-Edouard Vlasic

2006 draft
25 Patrick Berlund

2007 draft
26 David Perron

2008 draft
27 John Carlson
34 Jake Allen
38 Roman Josi

2009 draft
26 Kyle Palmieri
30 Simon Despres
33 Ryan O'Reilly
39 Jakob Silfverberg

2010
26 Evgeny Kuznetsov
28 Charlie Coyle
29 Emerson Etem
30 Brock Nelson
37 Justin Faulk

2011
30 Rickard Rakell
32 Ty Rattie
33 Rocco Grimaldi
35 Tomas Jurco
37 Boone Jenner
39 John Gibson
41 Dmitrij Jaskin
43 Brandon Saad

Tried to pick players in the range the late 1st early 2nd would be in. There are good NHL players picked in that range almost every year.
So, looking more than a year or two into the past, the 30% number looks about right. Got it.

We currently have two picks in that range, I don't think it's going to kill us to give up one of them in a poor draft year to make an improvement at our weakest position in what is obviously our best shot in decades at bring a cup home to St Louis.

Or we can keep putting up straw men as to why Miller isn't better than Halak or Elliott.

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01-06-2014, 07:09 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanick View Post
I proposed this in the All purpose Miller thread and it was accepted by a few Buffalo fans.



Ryan Miller
2014 Wild 2nd



Jaro Halak
2014 1st
2014 3rd

We would lose our first round pick which will likely be in the 25-29 range anyway. We still have the Oilers 2nd which will be between 30-35, then we would have the Wild 2nd which would probably be in the 47-52 range and then our own which would be in the 55-59 range.

This way we don't have to touch any of our prospects and since we have the Oilers 2nd we won't drop that much off of our projected 1st round spot and we gain yet another 2nd round. One thing to keep in mind is we have had quite a bit of success in the 2nd round over recent years (Backes obviously, then Jaskin, Rattie, Allen, Vannelli, Carrier and Edmundson are all solid prospects.
This I concur.

I voted on the poll : Yes - But only with the intention of signing him long-term.

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01-06-2014, 07:40 PM
  #100
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So, looking more than a year or two into the past, the 30% number looks about right. Got it.

We currently have two picks in that range, I don't think it's going to kill us to give up one of them in a poor draft year to make an improvement at our weakest position in what is obviously our best shot in decades at bring a cup home to St Louis.

Or we can keep putting up straw men as to why Miller isn't better than Halak or Elliott.
Great post, agree with this.

Seriously some of you may need to go watch a Buffalo game. Miller is a lot more than just a "slight upgrade" on Halak. He's a much better starting goalie.

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