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Voracek, Simmonds, B Schenn and Couturier's aggregate production since the big trade

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Old
01-07-2014, 10:29 PM
  #1
Embiid
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Voracek, Simmonds, B Schenn and Couturier's aggregate production since the big trade

Earlier in the pre game they showed Voracek's numbers compared to Carter's since the trade....Voracek beat him pretty good with assists although obviously Carter edged him with goals

I would say from a point production standpoint Flyers pretty much reaped a bonanza with that trade and the intangibles are there too...especially with Coots as a shutdown center which some people thought couldn't be replaced when Carter and Richards were traded.

I always supported the trade and felt it was necessary but also felt it wasn't followed up too well (Bryz and holding on to Lavi..not to mention Carle and Jagr). This was particularly the case last season. Seems they are all getting seasoned by Chef Berube now. Simmonds and B Schenn have obviously picked it up pretty considerably of late and Coots was salvaged when Lavi was finally dumped.

In short, the trade was definitely a win for the Flyers..the production continues. The trade was made to add depth and size and to change the culture which Snider felt was needed b/c he thought the team wasn't "growing" together. Last year and beginning of this year there were growing pains and doubts....some reasonable and some not. It seems Lavi had become a bit of roadblock and was stunting the development of this team. Berube... I must admit ....had my doubts and still do a bit but got to give him credit..he's got them playing much better.

Oh and let's throw in Grossman and hopefully Cousins as some extras that were reaped.

Anyway, can somebody post the point totals for all the players in comparison to Richards and Carter....it is pretty considerable. Obviously, some will argue it is not all about stats and that Richards and Carter were better players etc but I'm just curious about the stats....Appleyard?

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01-07-2014, 10:32 PM
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poneill27
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Appleyard? That had me laughing!!! That guy's the King of stats!

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01-07-2014, 10:33 PM
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ya, lets compare these guys to them for the one millionth time

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01-07-2014, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
ya, lets compare these guys to them for the one millionth time
LOL....sorry...but liking how they have all picked it up and the pre game stat (Jake Vs Fake ) was kind of cool....

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01-07-2014, 10:38 PM
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Neither Schenn nor Simmonds replaces Richards. Voracek, when he's in full Vorasaur mode opposed to fattymode, is arguably worth Carter straight up....but this team desperately misses his shooting. Voracek + Couturier combined is a straight up win.

Overall, the aggregate two way ability of the team is still below where it was, but disposing of Briere has helped.

Edit: obligatory "lol this thread again."


Edit 2: Nope, misread

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Old
01-07-2014, 10:44 PM
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Carter: 136GP, 62G, 31A, 93P at 0.68 PPG (0.46 GPG)

Richards: 165GP, 36G, 68A, 104P at 0.63 PPG (0.22 GPG)


Voracek: 168GP, 50G, 75A, 125P at 0.74 PPG (0.30 GPG)

Simmonds: 179GP, 57G, 53A, 110P at 0.61 PPG (0.32 GPG)

Schenn: 143GP, 30G, 39A, 69P at 0.48 PPG (0.21 GPG)

Couturier: 165GP, 24G, 36A, 60P at 0.36 PPG (0.15 GPG)

So in terms of points and PPG Voracek + Simmonds trump Carter + Richards in that time.

But ofc it is not only points that matter in the NHL.

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01-07-2014, 10:51 PM
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Nvm, beaten to it.

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01-07-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Carter: 136GP, 62G, 31A, 93P at 0.68 PPG (0.46 GPG)

Richards: 165GP, 36G, 68A, 104P at 0.63 PPG (0.22 GPG)


Voracek: 168GP, 50G, 75A, 125P at 0.74 PPG (0.30 GPG)

Simmonds: 179GP, 57G, 53A, 110P at 0.61 PPG (0.32 GPG)

Schenn: 143GP, 30G, 39A, 69P at 0.48 PPG (0.21 GPG)

Couturier: 165GP, 24G, 36A, 60P at 0.36 PPG (0.15 GPG)

So in terms of points and PPG Voracek + Simmonds trump Carter + Richards in that time.

But ofc it is not only points that matter in the NHL.
Yeah it's not like any of the guys we got back play elite defense like Richards does. Wait...

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01-07-2014, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Carter: 136GP, 62G, 31A, 93P at 0.68 PPG (0.46 GPG)

Richards: 165GP, 36G, 68A, 104P at 0.63 PPG (0.22 GPG)


Voracek: 168GP, 50G, 75A, 125P at 0.74 PPG (0.30 GPG)

Simmonds: 179GP, 57G, 53A, 110P at 0.61 PPG (0.32 GPG)

Schenn: 143GP, 30G, 39A, 69P at 0.48 PPG (0.21 GPG)

Couturier: 165GP, 24G, 36A, 60P at 0.36 PPG (0.15 GPG)

So in terms of points and PPG Voracek + Simmonds trump Carter + Richards in that time.

But ofc it is not only points that matter in the NHL.
Thanks! Yeah Voracek and Simmonds alone have trumped Carter and Richards. Voracek needs to stop being a fatty in the offseason though and Simmonds is obviously streaky but so was Carter.

I still wish somehow we got a D man other than Grossmann indirectly in that trade. Apparently they tried with Voynov..damn! I like Schenn but Voynov would have been sweet.

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01-07-2014, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Yeah it's not like any of the guys we got back play elite defense like Richards does. Wait...
LOL, thanks for that.

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01-07-2014, 11:20 PM
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I don't think I would have done the Richards trade, but long-term it may be better for the team.

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01-07-2014, 11:34 PM
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LOL, thanks for that.
One guy. Carter AND Richards were both good defensively and Couturier isn't at Richards' level for two way play yet.

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01-08-2014, 12:12 AM
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I'm really not even sure a coherent argument can be made against these trades. They are both slam dunks. We were an organization in dire need of youth and depth. These trades provided a little of both.

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01-08-2014, 06:24 AM
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I'm really not even sure a coherent argument can be made against these trades. They are both slam dunks. We were an organization in dire need of youth and depth. These trades provided a little of both.
The argument would be the flyers took a step back with youth because Richards and Carter at the time were more complete players after their 6th year in the NHL. Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier were and in the case of Schenn and Couturier still in their development stage. These trades could turn out to be a win win for everyone but Columbus.

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01-08-2014, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
One guy. Carter AND Richards were both good defensively and Couturier isn't at Richards' level for two way play yet.
Well, on the defensive side of things, he sure is.

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01-08-2014, 07:59 AM
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I think we forget how young Coots and Schenn are. They could end up being better than Richards and Carter on their own, but it will take some time. I don't think that is a foregone conclusion, but they're obviously skilled players and we also got Simmonds, Voracek in those deals. Those two are still growing as players, I think, and still have a some space between their current state and ceiling.

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01-08-2014, 08:00 AM
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Before the trades, I really like Richards but worried about his longevity in the league given his body type and style of Play, and I was frustrated with Carter's streaky play (high and wide over and over again!) and did not think he would have success converting to wing (he has with LA).

After the trades, I thought both returns were great. The moment the Flyers drafted Couturier, I felt that trade was a slam dunk and have not deviated from that opinion.

With the Richards trade, B. Schenn was the "best player not in NHL" and while he is slowly reaching projected production, he hasn't progressed as quickly as the Flyers had hoped and is looking more like a second liner than a first liner. Simmonds has far exceeded expectations and I give Homer credit for thinking he could produce more and be an effective PP player if given the opportunity.

I do think it is irrelevant that Richards and Carter won a cup. But I am happy for them. I always thought Richards was the type of character guy that one day would raise the cup. Having said that, without Quick, they would not have come close the season they won. That I 100% certain of.

Also, contract/cap wise, they were both winners. Ignoring the subsequent Bryzaster of course.

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01-08-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Before the trades, I really like Richards but worried about his longevity in the league given his body type and style of Play, and I was frustrated with Carter's streaky play (high and wide over and over again!) and did not think he would have success converting to wing (he has with LA).

After the trades, I thought both returns were great. The moment the Flyers drafted Couturier, I felt that trade was a slam dunk and have not deviated from that opinion.

With the Richards trade, B. Schenn was the "best player not in NHL" and while he is slowly reaching projected production, he hasn't progressed as quickly as the Flyers had hoped and is looking more like a second liner than a first liner. Simmonds has far exceeded expectations and I give Homer credit for thinking he could produce more and be an effective PP player if given the opportunity.

I do think it is irrelevant that Richards and Carter won a cup. But I am happy for them. I always thought Richards was the type of character guy that one day would raise the cup. Having said that, without Quick, they would not have come close the season they won. That I 100% certain of.

Also, contract/cap wise, they were both winners. Ignoring the subsequent Bryzaster of course.
On pace for 51 points this year and was on pace for 45 last year, he's already a second line producer in this league. This is with second unit pp minutes and about 15 and a half minutes of ice time per game on average. That puts him 8th among our forwards, meaning he's getting 3rd line minutes. He's only 22 and hasn't yet played the equivalence of 2 full NHL seasons. My point is he still has some filling out to do physically and with experience will come consistency which is his biggest knock at the moment.

JVR is barley out producing him in TO (4 more points this year and finished with 6 more last year). JVR is older and playing with much better line-mates though. JVR is also literally getting more then 5 more minutes of ice time a game with 1st unit pp duties. The team needs to be patient with Brayden or they're going to regret it. Unless of course they can get a #1 d-man for him in some sort of package.

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01-08-2014, 08:52 AM
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I do both trades every day of the week. Richards is the best player in the deal, and no ONE player replaces him, but if you ask me if I'd rather have Schenn and Simmonds (and a third) I'd take the latter every single time. I think Couturier and Voracek is an even easier call. Swish.

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01-08-2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
On pace for 51 points this year and was on pace for 45 last year, he's already a second line producer in this league. This is with second unit pp minutes and about 15 and a half minutes of ice time per game on average. That puts him 8th among our forwards, meaning he's getting 3rd line minutes. He's only 22 and hasn't yet played the equivalence of 2 full NHL seasons. My point is he still has some filling out to do physically and with experience will come consistency which is his biggest knock at the moment.

JVR is barley out producing him in TO (4 more points this year and finished with 6 more last year). JVR is older and playing with much better line-mates though. JVR is also literally getting more then 5 more minutes of ice time a game with 1st unit pp duties. The team needs to be patient with Brayden or they're going to regret it. Unless of course they can get a #1 d-man for him in some sort of package.
If his PP unit was effective, he would be producing a lot more, so I guess his upside could still be a first liner. That 2nd unit is sooooooooo bad.

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01-08-2014, 10:16 AM
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I was in favor of dealing Carter. I'd make that trade again without a moment's hesitation, and I'm a Carter fan.

The Richards trade though...

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01-08-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
The argument would be the flyers took a step back with youth because Richards and Carter at the time were more complete players after their 6th year in the NHL. Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier were and in the case of Schenn and Couturier still in their development stage. These trades could turn out to be a win win for everyone but Columbus.
Some times you have to take one step back, in order to take two forward. We were an organization with no youth. None. We were ranked last in the prospect rankings and had no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heading into the 2011 draft. This after not having a 1st or 2nd in 2010 and 2009. And are 2008 1st rounder had already been traded (for Pronger).

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01-08-2014, 01:05 PM
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You mean Canadian Olympian Jeff Carter

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01-08-2014, 01:11 PM
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It will be so great if Canada gets bounced in the quarterfinals.

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01-08-2014, 01:36 PM
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Lots of missing context in this topic. The return we got has outproduced Richards and Carter in PPG, but they also play very different roles then Richards and Carter do and we got a lot more in return in terms of quantity.

None of the guys we got back are or likely will ever be as good as Carter is at goal scoring. Richards plays second-fiddle to Kopitar on a team that tries to grind out games and frankly isn't strong offensively while he was our go-to center for most of his time here on a team that has been built around offensive production for a very long time. It's a very different role and very different teams so his lack of scoring isn't all that big of a deal as some Flyers fans or fans in general would make it out to be.

Richards and Carter are definitely more established then what we got in return. Richards is also a better two-way force then anything we got in return. Couturier could be that good eventually, but he doesn't produce the offense Richards does or has produced and isn't consistent enough in his shutdown presence either. Carter is also better at goal scoring then anyone on our roster.

Kind of impossible to say if the trades were even good for us and definitely can't say that we won those. LA went on to win a Cup with those two and is a much more highly regarded team then us. We also missed the playoffs last season and this season is kind of in the balance for now.

People also forget that Carter was originally traded to Columbus and all they really got in return for him was Jack Johnson while they gave up Voracek, Couturier (indirectly), and a 2nd for him.

Columbus actually lost out in this whole situation way worse then anyone even though they weren't even involved in the Richards half of it. Which is kind of funny actually.

Still, this thread is really missing a lot of context. Right now LA is fine with those trades and won a Cup in part to those trades. The Flyers missed the playoffs, have had two compliance buyouts since then, and are still waiting on guys like Couturier and Schenn that were big parts of those trades to fully develop. So we definitely didn't win it and the jury is still out on it in reality.

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