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Old
05-01-2014, 08:06 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
Expecting Schenn to be a 2C and expecting him to be a Richards/Carter replacement are two different things. Richards and Carter were both high-end 2C's or middle of the road 1C's when they were here. I don't expect Schenn to reach their level. He might reach 70 points and hit 30 goals a few times, which is great for a 2C, but he probably won't hit 40 like Carter or be the kind of leader Richards was. Those guys are pretty damn hard to replace.

People are so negative around here. Schenn literally just played his first full season while being asked to carry his own line and not getting top PP minutes and he still put up 40 points and 20 goals. That's not bad for a first full season of a 22 year old, look at the list of comparable guys at his age. His development is perfectly fine and you people suggesting he's already peaked or doesn't have potential are bat **** insane. You're the bane of this franchise and the reason we have so much turnover. Settle down and watch this kid grow, I guarantee he'll improve.

I really just can't believe the vitriol Schenn is getting on here for having a perfectly acceptable season for someone his age and with his experience. But since he's not Mike Richards 2.0 we should ship him out. Makes me embarrassed to be a fan of this franchise.
I'm the bane of this franchise? Are you ****ing kidding me? Look at Holmgren and Snider's lack of patience before looking at me. And don't act like I'm the guy making these trades.

Learn to read, and then try applying that newfound skill to my posts. Nowhere do I say trade him. In fact, I make it very clear he SHOULDN'T be traded. Nowhere do I say he has peaked, either. There is a distinct difference between "this is the best he'll ever be" and "Don't expect him to grow into that great impact player we expected when we got him," do you agree?


And yes, he was expected to generally replace Carter or Richards. There's really no way around that. That was the expectation based on the scouting reports, and the fact that they traded two centers for wingers and one center prospect. Giroux was the new, clear #1. He was meant to replace one of them behind him. It's looking increasingly unlikely that he can reach that level.

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Old
05-01-2014, 08:26 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm the bane of this franchise? Are you ****ing kidding me? Look at Holmgren and Snider's lack of patience before looking at me. And don't act like I'm the guy making these trades.

Learn to read, and then try applying that newfound skill to my posts. Nowhere do I say trade him. In fact, I make it very clear he SHOULDN'T be traded. Nowhere do I say he has peaked, either. There is a distinct difference between "this is the best he'll ever be" and "Don't expect him to grow into that great impact player we expected when we got him," do you agree?


And yes, he was expected to generally replace Carter or Richards. There's really no way around that. That was the expectation based on the scouting reports, and the fact that they traded two centers for wingers and one center prospect. Giroux was the new, clear #1. He was meant to replace one of them behind him. It's looking increasingly unlikely that he can reach that level.
Beef, I have to agree with blinds here. You have done a horrible job with this organization. You need to get your act together or else we are going to turn on you.

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05-01-2014, 08:32 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm the bane of this franchise? Are you ****ing kidding me? Look at Holmgren and Snider's lack of patience before looking at me. And don't act like I'm the guy making these trades.

Learn to read, and then try applying that newfound skill to my posts. Nowhere do I say trade him. In fact, I make it very clear he SHOULDN'T be traded. Nowhere do I say he has peaked, either. There is a distinct difference between "this is the best he'll ever be" and "Don't expect him to grow into that great impact player we expected when we got him," do you agree?


And yes, he was expected to generally replace Carter or Richards. There's really no way around that. That was the expectation based on the scouting reports, and the fact that they traded two centers for wingers and one center prospect. Giroux was the new, clear #1. He was meant to replace one of them behind him. It's looking increasingly unlikely that he can reach that level.
How at all does it look like he can't reach that level? He's 58th in center scoring in his first full season with poor linemates and poor minutes. That's 2C level scoring, even if it's at the very bottom.

Sorry about the rest, I didn't mean to project all of it on you. It was directed more towards some of the overreactions going around here over Schenn now that we lost, I should've clarified I wasn't speaking about you directly. You've been pretty consistent in your opinion on him, other people are going off the deep end because he had a poor series. By the bane of the franchise, I just meant impatient fans. It forces management to make decisions because the fans aren't willing to wait to be good.

It's crazy for some people (not you Beef) around here to act like he doesn't have room to improve, just look at that list of guys that someone else quoted. A lot of them that were around his level of production at his age and are first line players now. I'm sure you could pick a bunch of them and make the same criticisms people have of Schenn now, that he's not great at any one aspect of the game, he's not flashy, etc etc.

Fact is, he's developing perfectly fine for what he's expected to be. He's not going to be a game breaking player like Richards and Carter could be, but he'll probably be a guy whose able to put up some very respectable secondary scoring behind Giroux. If we actually convert him to wing and put him with G, I can see him sniffing 40 goals in his prime. He already got 20 with the poor situation he has now. If he had 1st unit PP time or linemates that actually complement his style of play, he could've been closer to 30 than 20 this season.

Out of all our forwards, he has the most potential as a goal scorer. For a team full of power forwards and playmakers, that's pretty damn valuable.


Last edited by blinds: 05-01-2014 at 08:38 PM.
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05-01-2014, 08:54 PM
  #479
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Schenn can get more TOI if this team stop taking dumb penalties.

17-18min with a decent 2nd PP unit and he should be able to put 55-70pts in 2-3years.

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05-01-2014, 09:20 PM
  #480
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Beef, I have to agree with blinds here. You have done a horrible job with this organization. You need to get your act together or else we are going to turn on you.
So are you saying my plan to trade Coburn for Greg Campbell may backfire with the fans?

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How at all does it look like he can't reach that level? He's 58th in center scoring in his first full season with poor linemates and poor minutes. That's 2C level scoring, even if it's at the very bottom.
I mean, he lacks that spark we saw with Giroux, that we are seeing at times with Couturier, and that we saw occasionally from JVR. That "it" factor that tells you there's a lot more to come. I've already gone into my doubts about his decision making, his ability to control the puck, and his ability to drive his line, often looking more like driftwood caught in the tide of play than a controlling force. He generally looks like someone who's relying very heavily on physical talents alone to get by, and while that might have worked great for him at lower levels, it's not going to cut it in the NHL.

Edit: Believe me, I want to be wrong. I want to be missing something in his game I'm just not seeing. It would make winning a Cup much easier.


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05-01-2014, 09:29 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So are you saying my plan to trade Coburn for Greg Campbell may backfire with the fans?



I mean, he lacks that spark we saw with Giroux, that we are seeing at times with Couturier, and that we saw occasionally from JVR. That "it" factor that tells you there's a lot more to come. I've already gone into my doubts about his decision making, his ability to control the puck, and his ability to drive his line, often looking more like driftwood caught in the tide of play than a controlling force. He generally looks like someone who's relying very heavily on physical talents alone to get by, and while that might have worked great for him at lower levels, it's not going to cut it in the NHL.
I think this is the biggest problem here. What exactly do you define as cutting it in the NHL? I'd say being a 50+ pt guy is cutting it considering his minutes. Would you disagree with that? Or do you not think Schenn can improve from being a 41 pt forward to a 50 point forward?

And I'd disagree about the "it" factor. I know for a fact I called people out after some games when he displayed "it". One game that particularly that comes to mind is a Flyers/Pens game earlier this season when he scored the team's two lone goals in a 2-1 win. He also had the strong series against the Pens in 2012. There have been games where he drove the play and showed his stuff but it just hasn't been with any degree of regularity.

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05-01-2014, 09:31 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I think this is the biggest problem here. What exactly do you define as cutting it in the NHL? I'd say being a 50+ pt guy is cutting it considering his minutes. Would you disagree with that? Or do you not think Schenn can improve from being a 41 pt forward to a 50 point forward?
Yeah, sorry. That was too vague and poorly worded. I mean "cut it" as a high level center...as the kind of guy we hoped we were getting, who could fill one of the voids left by the Carter/Richards trades.

Obviously if he turns into a Hartnell who can stay upright and throw fewer gloves, he's cutting it. He's just not cutting it at the level our planned rebuild anticipated or even required.

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05-01-2014, 09:35 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, sorry. That was too vague and poorly worded. I mean "cut it" as a high level center...as the kind of guy we hoped we were getting, who could fill one of the voids left by the Carter/Richards trades.

Obviously if he turns into a Hartnell who can stay upright and throw fewer gloves, he's cutting it. He's just not cutting it at the level our planned rebuild anticipated or even required.
I'm totally OK with that (Schenn being a 50+ guy) but obviously others aren't (like yourself). I think this is the major point of contention in this thread.

I don't think this team needs Schenn to be more then a 50+ pt center. In fact being a 50+ point center with Giroux being Giroux the Flyers would have two centers in the top 30 center scoring. Only two teams had that this year, the Penguins and the Sharks. I don't see how it's necessary for the team for him to be more then that.

Schenn with G in the top 30 for Cs along with Simmonds, Voracek and Hartnell in the top 30 in RW and LW scoring the team would essentially have two top lines.


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05-01-2014, 09:40 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm the bane of this franchise? Are you ****ing kidding me? Look at Holmgren and Snider's lack of patience before looking at me. And don't act like I'm the guy making these trades.

Learn to read, and then try applying that newfound skill to my posts. Nowhere do I say trade him. In fact, I make it very clear he SHOULDN'T be traded. Nowhere do I say he has peaked, either. There is a distinct difference between "this is the best he'll ever be" and "Don't expect him to grow into that great impact player we expected when we got him," do you agree?


And yes, he was expected to generally replace Carter or Richards. There's really no way around that. That was the expectation based on the scouting reports, and the fact that they traded two centers for wingers and one center prospect. Giroux was the new, clear #1. He was meant to replace one of them behind him. It's looking increasingly unlikely that he can reach that level.
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Beef, I have to agree with blinds here. You have done a horrible job with this organization. You need to get your act together or else we are going to turn on you.
Yeah Beef, why'd you trade JVR? I'm also annoyed at you for playing Grossmann, Rinaldo, Vinny, and Emery so much.

I bet Schenn would be a better GM than you.

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05-01-2014, 09:42 PM
  #485
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I'm totally OK with that (Schenn being a 50+ guy) but obviously others aren't (like yourself). I think this is the major point of contention in this thread.

I don't think this team needs Schenn to be more then a 50+ pt center. In fact being a 50+ point center with Giroux being Giroux the Flyers would have two centers in the top 30 center scoring. Only two teams had that this year, the Penguins and the Sharks. I don't think it's practical.
I'd rather have a 40 point player that dictates the pace of the game (ala Couturier) than a player that only occasionally shows up on the score-sheet. Even if he nets 50-60 points a season.

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05-01-2014, 09:47 PM
  #486
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I'd rather have a 40 point player that dictates the pace of the game (ala Couturier) than a player that only occasionally shows up on the score-sheet. Even if he nets 50-60 points a season.
Team's aren't filled with those types of players though, they have complimentary players as well.

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05-01-2014, 09:48 PM
  #487
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If they move Schenn to wing full time, then he can get the extra minutes needed to get to the next level. And just think, 44 points was the #30 scoring LW this year. If he can be a 50+ point LW'er then he will be in the top 25....so low 1st line production. 55 points gets him into the top 20.

Making this move HELPS Schenn get his minutes and gives Vinny the 3rd line C minutes again. And fills the void at LW. And gets Hartnell off the 1st line.

Of course, to fix the D, Schenn is probably the one traded.

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05-01-2014, 09:51 PM
  #488
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I've been saying it constantly since before the season started. Schenn on the 1st line LW makes too much damn sense for it to still not have happened... put him there and leave him there for a month.

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05-01-2014, 09:55 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So are you saying my plan to trade Coburn for Greg Campbell may backfire with the fans?



I mean, he lacks that spark we saw with Giroux, that we are seeing at times with Couturier, and that we saw occasionally from JVR. That "it" factor that tells you there's a lot more to come. I've already gone into my doubts about his decision making, his ability to control the puck, and his ability to drive his line, often looking more like driftwood caught in the tide of play than a controlling force. He generally looks like someone who's relying very heavily on physical talents alone to get by, and while that might have worked great for him at lower levels, it's not going to cut it in the NHL.

Edit: Believe me, I want to be wrong. I want to be missing something in his game I'm just not seeing. It would make winning a Cup much easier.
to be fair, Richards didn't break out until his 3rd season. Schenn still won't get the opportunities that Richards got on his 3rd season. Carter hovered around 20g hist first few years, but didn't have his breakout until year 4. Both guys were older than Schenn too.

Guys like Crosby, Ovie, etc really skew people. In a pre cap era, Schenn would still be in the minors. Younger guys are forced into it much earlier, and not everyone is a superstar. He might be never more than a steaming pile, but it's just sooo too early.

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05-01-2014, 09:56 PM
  #490
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Team's aren't filled with those types of players though, they have complimentary players as well.
Indeed. But we need at least one more in the forward group.

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05-01-2014, 09:58 PM
  #491
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Indeed. But we need at least one more in the forward group.
Voracek, Couts and G at least. They could have one on each line. If they decided to move Schenn to G's LW (I think it needs to be tried) Laughton could potentially fill in nicely at 3C (getting ~15 minutes a game).

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05-01-2014, 10:05 PM
  #492
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Voracek, Couts and G at least. They could have one on each line. If they decided to move Schenn to G's LW (I think it needs to be tried) Laughton could potentially fill in nicely at 3C (getting ~15 minutes a game).
This is exactly what should, but won't, happen. I have absolutely zero faith in Berube to make the smart decision.

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05-01-2014, 10:13 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm the bane of this franchise? Are you ****ing kidding me? Look at Holmgren and Snider's lack of patience before looking at me. And don't act like I'm the guy making these trades.

Learn to read, and then try applying that newfound skill to my posts. Nowhere do I say trade him. In fact, I make it very clear he SHOULDN'T be traded. Nowhere do I say he has peaked, either. There is a distinct difference between "this is the best he'll ever be" and "Don't expect him to grow into that great impact player we expected when we got him," do you agree?


And yes, he was expected to generally replace Carter or Richards. There's really no way around that. That was the expectation based on the scouting reports, and the fact that they traded two centers for wingers and one center prospect. Giroux was the new, clear #1. He was meant to replace one of them behind him. It's looking increasingly unlikely that he can reach that level.
How does Schenn's development compare to a guy like Pavelski?

Pavelski didn't make to the NHL until was 22-23 years old. It took him 3 years (25-26) to become a 20 goal scorer.

I personally think Schenn may fit better as a winger but I think it is still too early to say he won't reach Richard's level at this point. Richard's benefited from playing for a coach that played him at his natural.position and in every aspect of the game (PP QB, PK, top line minutes) while Schenn has been shuffled around every season.

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05-01-2014, 10:25 PM
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I thing Schenn will end up around Crosbys level. Schenn was once the best player not in the NHL, Crosby was once the best player not in the NHL. It all adds up.

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05-01-2014, 10:45 PM
  #495
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How does Schenn's development compare to a guy like Pavelski?

Pavelski didn't make to the NHL until was 22-23 years old. It took him 3 years (25-26) to become a 20 goal scorer.

I personally think Schenn may fit better as a winger but I think it is still too early to say he won't reach Richard's level at this point. Richard's benefited from playing for a coach that played him at his natural.position and in every aspect of the game (PP QB, PK, top line minutes) while Schenn has been shuffled around every season.
This....

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05-01-2014, 10:49 PM
  #496
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One memory i have of schenn is how well vorabeast and schenn played together last year. For about a month schenn was a ppg player and looked so good.

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05-01-2014, 11:17 PM
  #497
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One memory i have of schenn is how well vorabeast and schenn played together last year. For about a month schenn was a ppg player and looked so good.
Rafl Schenn Voracek ?

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05-02-2014, 06:21 AM
  #498
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Multiple people have mentioned Schenn did not have proper line mates. Does this mean Simmonds is not a 2nd line winger? Or is he legimate, and we're talking about the other line mate?

I know Vinny sucked, so he's really not worth discussing, just a waste of time.

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05-02-2014, 06:27 AM
  #499
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Multiple people have mentioned Schenn did not have proper line mates. Does this mean Simmonds is not a 2nd line winger? Or is he legimate, and we're talking about the other line mate?

I know Vinny sucked, so he's really not worth discussing, just a waste of time.
Simmonds is a PP specialist. He's a quality winger but not one that necessarily suits B Schenn.

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05-02-2014, 09:22 AM
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By the bane of the franchise, I just meant impatient fans. It forces management to make decisions because the fans aren't willing to wait to be good.
sorry, but this is really as dumb as it gets
to think that management is forced to make decisions because of the fans...jeez, why not place some of this horribly misplaced blame right square at the top on Mr. Ed Snider's shoulders?

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It's crazy for some people (not you Beef) around here to act like he doesn't have room to improve
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other people are going off the deep end because he had a poor series
no one has said that he can't improve and the reactions as to his play aren't based on one poor series-his season wasn't that great.
Yeah but he had 20 goals...14 of those 20 goals scored against non-playoff teams. Better teams and better players shut him down-like we just saw the Rangers do.

My concern is; is he a centre? Is he a winger? If this team is going to be a legit contender through the prime years of #28/#93/#35, he will have to be a big part of that and not the passenger that he was this season.

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