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The Great Debate(rehashed): Forsberg vs Lindros

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Old
06-28-2014, 10:46 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
to set records straight again:

if eric lindros had played every game of 1993 and maintained his scoring rate from the games he did play, he would have beaten bossy's rookie scoring record and tied hawerchuk's rookie points record (though in four more games, as '93 was an 84 game season, while hawerchuk came into the league during the 80 game season era).

there is very little doubt in my mind that an 84 game lindros in '93 would have been easily the runner-up for the calder. a fully healthy 19 year old lindros would have finished 8th in goals (ahead of kevin stevens, behind pierre turgeon and steve yzerman) and 18th in points (just squeaking ahead of joe juneau, behind joe sakic).

if we go by per-games, these are the ten players who finished ahead of him in goals/game:

1. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 1.15
2. Alexander Mogilny-BUF 0.99
3. Teemu Selanne-WIN 0.90
4. Kevin Stevens-PIT 0.76
5. Luc Robitaille*-LAK 0.75
6. Pavel Bure*-VAN 0.72
7. Brendan Shanahan*-STL 0.72
8. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 0.70
9. Steve Yzerman*-DET 0.69
10. Brett Hull*-STL 0.68


and these are the 22 guys who finished ahead of lindros in points/game:

1. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 2.67
2. Pat LaFontaine*-BUF 1.76
3. Adam Oates*-BOS 1.69
4. Alexander Mogilny-BUF 1.65
5. Steve Yzerman*-DET 1.63
6. Pierre Turgeon-NYI 1.59
7. Teemu Selanne-WIN 1.57
8. Kevin Stevens-PIT 1.54
9. Doug Gilmour*-TOR 1.53
10. Luc Robitaille*-LAK 1.49
11. Mark Recchi-PHI 1.46
12. Wayne Gretzky*-LAK 1.44
13. Mats Sundin*-QUE 1.43
14. Rick Tocchet-PIT 1.36
15. Gary Roberts-CGY 1.36
16. Joe Sakic*-QUE 1.35
17. Pavel Bure*-VAN 1.33
18. Tomas Sandstrom-LAK 1.33
19. Brendan Shanahan*-STL 1.32
20. Jeremy Roenick-CHI 1.27
21. Brett Hull*-STL 1.26
22. Craig Janney-STL 1.26


bolded are guys who had the best offensive seasons of their careers, adjusted for era (so, mogilny but not selanne or bure). guys who had the best per-game seasons of their careers in italics. so everyone who finished above lindros was either a first ballot hall of famer, played on a line with a top four player all-time, had the season of his life, or was pavel bure.


to dispense with the per-games and the what-ifs, in actual fact lindros ended up with what was the 10th highest rookie goal total before ovechkin bumped him down to 11th more than a decade later.


now all of this is just so we remember just how dominant lindros' rookie season was. the above bickering over the above still stands, and i want nothing to do with any of it on either side. lindros did miss more than 20 games, and he did finish behind all those guys in scoring. but in the games that he did play, when you look at the company he was keeping offensively, which doesn't even account for his physical impact, i don't know if i can name 10 rookies in NHL history who were better players. but isn't that the story of lindros' career? that you have to go per-game and ignore games missed to shine it under its best light?
Off topic but holy **** @Lemieux.

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06-29-2014, 01:47 AM
  #102
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Quote:
... and these are the 22 guys who finished ahead of lindros in points/game:

...

14. Rick Tocchet-PIT 1.36
15. Gary Roberts-CGY 1.36
...
19. Brendan Shanahan*-STL 1.32
20. Jeremy Roenick-CHI 1.27
THESE are good comparisons.

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06-29-2014, 11:53 AM
  #103
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What makes people so sure Lindros doesn't blow out a knee in a league with no red line, or have someone like Cooke launch into his head?

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06-29-2014, 12:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
What makes people so sure Lindros doesn't blow out a knee in a league with no red line, or have someone like Cooke launch into his head?
.... yep, well, anythings possible.

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06-29-2014, 12:22 PM
  #105
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I always thought that at their best Lindros seemed like the more dominant player, but that is most likely due to his physical presence more than actual production.

Now looking back, the period of time I considered Forsberg a top 1-3 forward in the league was longer than the period of time I considered Lindros a top 1-3 forward.

Forsberg was the better player.

Just my opinion.

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06-29-2014, 07:36 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
"Always missing time" fits Peter Forsberg: The Early Years - almost as well, btw.
Oh, sure.

Games Played in Career/Games Played by Team

Forsberg
97.9% - 47/48
99.2% - 129/130
91.5% - 194/212
90.5% - 266/294
91.5% - 344/376

Lindros
72.6% - 61/84
75.0% - 126/168
79.6% - 172/216
82.2% - 245/298
78.2% - 297/380


If you think Forsberg was always missing time at the beginning of his career (just 32 GP in five seasons), wrap your head around the fact that Lindros missed 83 GP. That's a difference of five seasons as a 75 GP player and five seasons as a 64 GP player.

"Almost as well," you say? Forsberg was closer to being the epitome of good health at the beginning of his career than he was to being Lindros.

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06-29-2014, 09:43 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Oh, sure.

Games Played in Career/Games Played by Team

Forsberg
97.9% - 47/48
99.2% - 129/130
91.5% - 194/212
90.5% - 266/294
91.5% - 344/376

Lindros
72.6% - 61/84
75.0% - 126/168
79.6% - 172/216
82.2% - 245/298
78.2% - 297/380


If you think Forsberg was always missing time at the beginning of his career (just 32 GP in five seasons), wrap your head around the fact that Lindros missed 83 GP. That's a difference of five seasons as a 75 GP player and five seasons as a 64 GP player.

"Almost as well," you say? Forsberg was closer to being the epitome of good health at the beginning of his career than he was to being Lindros.
And yet, still, he was "always missing time", wasn't he. To quote wikipedia:

"In his 14 seasons as an NHL player, Forsberg missed an entire regular season and played in less than 90% of regular season games in eight other seasons.

The first season in which he missed a significant part was 199697 {his 3rd}...
"

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06-30-2014, 01:18 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Seemed to you, maybe. When you're that big and talented, you dare people to take the puck off of you, and buy time/room for your linemates to make other things happen. And why wouldn't you? If you watched how silly he made many players look when they tried to step up and make a play on the puck (or, foolishly, the body), you'd understand. It took repeated (under today's standards VERY much illegal/suspension-worthy) shots to the head to put a stop to that otherwise fantastically successful tactic. Perhaps just as importantly, the vision and creativity he showed as a playmaker AND goal scorer kind of precludes your interpretation, too.

He wasn't overly smart in a lot of ways, but he had more than enough hockey smarts; just not enough predict when the couple of real "fatal blows" to the head were going to come his way. It was never about him having to adapt to the league. The league still hadn't really developed an answer for that kind of talent by the time repeated head shots leading to concussions had pretty much solved the league's "problem" for them. Can anyone really "adapt" to the lurking in weeds head-hunting that he was repeatedly subjected to?
Seemed so to most people who watched him. There are others who played a similar game to Lindros who all learned not to skate over the blue line with their heads down. Yes, they can adapt to it that's absically what players like Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Modano, Forsberg, Sundin etc did. Obviously they would get hit by a dirty player but for the most part they learned and adapted to having a bulls eye on their back and kept their heads up. Have you forgotten that most of these players played at the same time as Lindros and didn't have the same concussion problems?

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06-30-2014, 01:52 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And yet, still, he was "always missing time", wasn't he. To quote wikipedia:

"In his 14 seasons as an NHL player, Forsberg missed an entire regular season and played in less than 90% of regular season games in eight other seasons.

The first season in which he missed a significant part was 199697 {his 3rd}...
"
A look at 14 seasons probably doesn't qualify as "the early years" as you put it, but when the facts don't fit, move the goalposts, right?

And yes, 17 games of the 32 games he missed from his first five years came in 1996-97. And I can totally see how you've equated one long-term absence with Lindros missing 23, 19, and 30 games at various points in his first five years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
"Always missing time" fits Peter Forsberg: The Early Years - almost as well, btw.
GP Among Centers, 1995-1999
1. Chris Gratton, 370
2. Ron Francis, 365
3. Wayne Gretzky, 362
4. Andrew Cassels, 359
5. Dale Hunter, 353
5. Keith Primeau, 353
7. Cliff Ronning, 348
8. Travis Green, 345
9. Peter Forsberg, 344
10. Doug Gilmour, 341

GP Among Centers, 1993-1997
1. Doug Gilmour, 372
1. Doug Weight, 372
3. Andrew Cassels, 371
4. Ron Francis, 368
5. Adam Oates, 359
5. Pierre Turgeon, 359
7. Joe Sakic, 356
8. Mark Janssens, 353
9. Craig Janney, 349
10. Joel Otto, 348
...
37. Eric Lindros, 297


Is your next step going to be an attempt to portray Forsberg's play in the 21st Century as part of his "early years" and his "immediate impact" just to try to even out the amount of games they missed? Because if so, I think you'll find that Forsberg got a lot better while he started missing major time, whereas Lindros continued missing time and start to play much worse.

So if what Forsberg was doing from 2000-2004 was still part of his "immediate impact" in your book, then yes, he made a much bigger 10-year immediate impact than Lindros. Much bigger.

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06-30-2014, 03:18 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Seemed so to most people who watched him. There are others who played a similar game to Lindros who all learned not to skate over the blue line with their heads down. Yes, they can adapt to it that's absically what players like Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Modano, Forsberg, Sundin etc did. Obviously they would get hit by a dirty player but for the most part they learned and adapted to having a bulls eye on their back and kept their heads up. Have you forgotten that most of these players played at the same time as Lindros and didn't have the same concussion problems?
A) Lindros seemed to have to endure a lot more of the "cheap"/desperate ones - high AND low. It's not even like the league slowly wore him down, either, as if there was some "book" on him. We can point to a narrow sample of very specific hits as "culprits".
B) It's a privilege conversing with the first person to completely understand who gets concussion problems, how, and why.
C) We're still comparing him to Forsberg here, who played <100 more career games than Lindros because his own style was part of his physical undoing as well.

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06-30-2014, 03:25 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
A look at 14 seasons probably doesn't qualify as "the early years" as you put it, but when the facts don't fit, move the goalposts, right?
You're just waving a flashlight around, drawing attention to and from what you want to. Nothing has been "moved". Don't look at the entire season missed part or 8 of 14 years having played <90% of the games, I guess (some of those have to be "early", lol). It's not like it's a secret that Forsberg only played 65 games in his 3rd season, and 72 the season after that... too much semantic divide for you??

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06-30-2014, 04:38 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
We're still comparing him to Forsberg here, who played <100 more career games than Lindros because his own style was part of his physical undoing as well.
What was it specifically about Forsberg's style of play that caused the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSN, November 2007
Forsberg has some congenital issues. He wasn't born with a club foot, but does have some characteristics associated with that, specifically the ligaments in his feet are too lax and loose.

The surgical procedures he has had on his feet were to 'tighten' up the ligaments. The basic problem, in spite of these surgeries, is that when Forsberg's foot is in the skate boot, his foot tends to roll over within the boot. It is as if he is wearing skates a couple of sizes too big for him, even though they are fitted correctly.

No matter how tight his skates are around the foot, his heel slips and the foot shifts and rolls over.

Now stability is the elusive quality. He simply can't push off well enough to skate if the stability isn't there.

Forsberg had been encouraged the problem was behind him, but it started to crop up again when he was skating on the weekend. The condition worsened today, so much so that he realized he could not continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You're just waving a flashlight around, drawing attention to and from what you want to. Nothing has been "moved". Don't look at the entire season missed part or 8 of 14 years having played <90% of the games, I guess (some of those have to be "early", lol). It's not like it's a secret that Forsberg only played 65 games in his 3rd season, and 72 the season after that... too much semantic divide for you??
Oh, please. First, you said Lindros was "immediately" one of the top scorers "hence all the Hart votes in his rookie season." Then I show that Forsberg placed higher in both points and points-per-game in his respective rookie season.

Next you expand the comparison to their 2nd and 3rd (and in the case of Lindros, his 4th season, because why not prejudice the results?), because "immediate individual impact" doesn't necessarily have to mean just the rookie season despite all context to the fact that you were specifically talking about Lindros' rookie season.

Then you clarify that you're talking about their first three seasons in terms of their impact (and Lindros' 4th).

Then you compare the amount of injuries at the beginning of Forsberg's career to the amount of injuries at the beginning of Lindros' career.

So I prove that not only did injuries not play a major factor in Forsberg's first three years, but that they didn't even have a major role in his first FIVE years, and that he was one of the top-ten Centers in GP in his first five years, because in his "early years," whether it be one, three, or even five, Peter Forsberg was a relatively healthy NHL player (and yes, these cumulations include the 65 GP season and the 72 GP season you referenced, and yes, he is still top-ten in GP despite them, no matter how much you want them to prove your point).

And now you want to pretend that we're looking at all 14 years of his career this whole time. Not one. Not three. Not five. All fourteen. Yes, you are moving the goalposts. In what universe can 2002 be construed as part of Peter Forsberg's "immediate individual impact" in the NHL? He was 8 seasons deep into his career!

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06-30-2014, 09:42 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
What was it specifically about Forsberg's style of play that caused the following:
From the sentence immediately preceding what I copied from wikipedia, which doesn't seem to be up for debate by anyone, and is consistent with what I watched over the years:

"Forsberg's style of play led him to deal with several severe injuries. It has been said in the press that he was injury prone because he did not soften his game as he got older."

But yeah, the congenital condition thing is in there as well. Obviously. This isn't an obscure player we're talking about here, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
...blah blah...

And now you want to pretend that we're looking at all 14 years of his career this whole time. Not one. Not three. Not five. All fourteen. Yes, you are moving the goalposts. In what universe can 2002 be construed as part of Peter Forsberg's "immediate individual impact" in the NHL? He was 8 seasons deep into his career!
Nope, I want you to read it all, put it all together, and figure it all out. We're talking about injuries AND impact here, and you seem to be getting lost. Forsberg missed a lot of time due to injury, even in his "early years" (17 regular season and 3 playoff games in '96 for example, shoulder injury in the Olympics the following season, etc). That's not even opinion - it's fact. I mean, just the plural on the end of the word years should be enough of a hint that we obviously aren't just talking about single seasons. By 2002 it was already common to see the phrase "Forsberg's most recent injury(ies)"...

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06-30-2014, 12:32 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
From the sentence immediately preceding what I copied from wikipedia, which doesn't seem to be up for debate by anyone, and is consistent with what I watched over the years:

"Forsberg's style of play led him to deal with several severe injuries. It has been said in the press that he was injury prone because he did not soften his game as he got older."

But yeah, the congenital condition thing is in there as well. Obviously. This isn't an obscure player we're talking about here, lol.
Because the wording of Wikipedia is a reliable authority? I could literally go on there right now and phrase it differently. Hell, the citation goes to an article where Kevin Allen incorrectly attributes Forsberg's "bad feet" to the "theory" that he should soften his game. By what, skating less? He also has a theory that Daniel Briere and Chris Drury "could give a hometown discount" to the Sabres. Theories are fun.

And I've shown it before: From 1995-2001, Forsberg played just 7 games fewer than Sakic, 9 games fewer than Modano, and 106 games more than Lindros. His style of play did not lead to injuries; his era led to the same injuries (concussion, separated shoulder) that less-physical Centers received. Outside of Francis, Gratton, Ronning, Cassels, Oates, Green, and Weight, every Center missed at least 10% of their games from 1995-2001. That's 27/34 Centers to play in all seven seasons missing at least 54/540 games.

Forsberg's injuries prior to the three ankle/foot surgeries in 2001-02 did not standout any more than the injuries of the other top Centers of the era. Then it became a nine-season struggle of pulling muscles just trying to skate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Nope, I want you to read it all, put it all together, and figure it all out. We're talking about injuries AND impact here, and you seem to be getting lost. Forsberg missed a lot of time due to injury, even in his "early years" (17 regular season and 3 playoff games in '96 for example, shoulder injury in the Olympics the following season, etc). That's not even opinion - it's fact.
Oh, sure.

Forsberg
97.9% - 47/48
99.2% - 129/130
91.5% - 194/212 (1996-97 injuries)
90.5% - 266/294 (Olympic injuries)
91.5% - 344/376

GP Among Centers, 1995-1999
1. Chris Gratton, 370
2. Ron Francis, 365
3. Wayne Gretzky, 362
4. Andrew Cassels, 359
5. Dale Hunter, 353
5. Keith Primeau, 353
7. Cliff Ronning, 348
8. Travis Green, 345
9. Peter Forsberg, 344
10. Doug Gilmour, 341

I am acknowledging the two injuries you are talking about, and telling you that of the 54 skaters to play Center from 1995-1999, Forsberg ranked 9th in GP.

That's a fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I mean, just the plural on the end of the word years should be enough of a hint that we obviously aren't just talking about single seasons.
If you want to compare full careers instead of just the beginning of their careers, fine. It's a complete departure from the discussion about "immediate individual impact," but fine.

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That was Forsberg's impact.

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06-30-2014, 12:40 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
A) Lindros seemed to have to endure a lot more of the "cheap"/desperate ones - high AND low. It's not even like the league slowly wore him down, either, as if there was some "book" on him. We can point to a narrow sample of very specific hits as "culprits".
B) It's a privilege conversing with the first person to completely understand who gets concussion problems, how, and why.
C) We're still comparing him to Forsberg here, who played <100 more career games than Lindros because his own style was part of his physical undoing as well.
A) Lindros was just as targeted as Forsberg and Lemieux because they were give and take players. Lindros did the same mistakes as Crosby is currently doing. Played cheap behind the play with his stick. However, let's get this on subject. Most of Lindros concussions came from him skating directly into another player with his head down. Forsbergs injuries were wear and tear from physical play (similar to Messier) and the fact that he developed a condition on his foot.

B) I understand concussion problems.

C) Forsberg never declined in skill like Lindros did. When Forsberg came back from an injury he was selected to all-star teams and won a hart.

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06-30-2014, 12:54 PM
  #116
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I've said this before like a broken record, but if Forsberg went to Philly and Lindros went to Quebec, I doubt the Flyers would have won 2 Cups and the Avs 0. I know it's hard to predict what would have happened, but fact is, Forsberg had a better team around him, especially at the goalie position.

One of these players was expected to carry a franchise, and the other had several others players who he carried it with (Sakic and Roy). The Avs won the Cup in 2001 with Forsberg not even playing in the latter rounds. He just didn't have to deal with as much pressure.

In the end, Forsberg had a better career and will be ranked higher all time, but I think you have to take team success into account, as being much of the reason for that.

By the time Lindros was surrounded with lots of talent, he was in New York, past his prime, and that team never could get any chemistry with one another. Rangers were a joke.

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06-30-2014, 05:24 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by GMR View Post
I've said this before like a broken record, but if Forsberg went to Philly and Lindros went to Quebec, I doubt the Flyers would have won 2 Cups and the Avs 0. I know it's hard to predict what would have happened, but fact is, Forsberg had a better team around him, especially at the goalie position.
Which had a lot to do with the Flyers giving up the farm to trade for Lindros.

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07-01-2014, 10:24 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because the wording of Wikipedia is a reliable authority? I could literally go on there right now and phrase it differently. Hell, the citation goes to an article where Kevin Allen incorrectly attributes Forsberg's "bad feet" to the "theory" that he should soften his game. By what, skating less? He also has a theory that Daniel Briere and Chris Drury "could give a hometown discount" to the Sabres. Theories are fun.

And I've shown it before: From 1995-2001, Forsberg played just 7 games fewer than Sakic, 9 games fewer than Modano, and 106 games more than Lindros. His style of play did not lead to injuries; his era led to the same injuries (concussion, separated shoulder) that less-physical Centers received. Outside of Francis, Gratton, Ronning, Cassels, Oates, Green, and Weight, every Center missed at least 10% of their games from 1995-2001. That's 27/34 Centers to play in all seven seasons missing at least 54/540 games.

Forsberg's injuries prior to the three ankle/foot surgeries in 2001-02 did not standout any more than the injuries of the other top Centers of the era. Then it became a nine-season struggle of pulling muscles just trying to skate.
Hahaha, yeah, Forsberg's separated shoulder was NOT from playing the same physical forechecking style we all know him for...

But wait... I think you're actually agreeing with me here that Forsberg, "like any other centre not named ______", regularly missed time - even during the early years. I'm glad you finally came around on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Oh, sure.

Forsberg
97.9% - 47/48
99.2% - 129/130
91.5% - 194/212 (1996-97 injuries)
90.5% - 266/294 (Olympic injuries)
91.5% - 344/376

GP Among Centers, 1995-1999
1. Chris Gratton, 370
2. Ron Francis, 365
3. Wayne Gretzky, 362
4. Andrew Cassels, 359
5. Dale Hunter, 353
5. Keith Primeau, 353
7. Cliff Ronning, 348
8. Travis Green, 345
9. Peter Forsberg, 344
10. Doug Gilmour, 341

I am acknowledging the two injuries you are talking about, and telling you that of the 54 skaters to play Center from 1995-1999, Forsberg ranked 9th in GP.

That's a fact.
And you know who is still on that same list with over 300 GP? Lindros. Also a fact. Less than 10 games per season difference between them, and you're telling me here that <10 games missed is "nothing", so...

Yeah, I'm even more comfortable now that before saying that "always missing time" still suitably describes Forsberg - no matter the cause, no matter the duration.

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If you want to compare full careers instead of just the beginning of their careers, fine. It's a complete departure from the discussion about "immediate individual impact," but fine.

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That was Forsberg's impact.
No, it's not. His "immediate" impact starts with one of the most impressive rookie seasons since Gretzky (overshadowed by Selanne doing something he never came close to duplicating), built through his return from the knee injury in year 2, and culminated in an Art Ross/Hart trophy season the very next year. You can make "immediate" mean whatever you want it to, but I've spent countless key strokes explaining it to you, whether you're actually reading it or not. Whether it's just the first year, or the first 3 years though, Lindros comes out on top as an individual player... and I don't think it's even close.

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07-01-2014, 10:39 AM
  #119
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A) Lindros was just as targeted as Forsberg and Lemieux because they were give and take players. Lindros did the same mistakes as Crosby is currently doing. Played cheap behind the play with his stick. However, let's get this on subject. Most of Lindros concussions came from him skating directly into another player with his head down. Forsbergs injuries were wear and tear from physical play (similar to Messier) and the fact that he developed a condition on his foot.
And let's be clear, not one of those hits is "legal" in the current NHL, nor would any of those players have avoided suspension for them. Also, refresh your memory of just how far both Stevens and Kasparaitis went East-West on the ice for their highest profile levelings of Lindros, because I think your recollection is a bit foggy. Lindros skated straight at neither guy (both guys travelling almost parallel to the blue line to lay their hits on a Lindros heading straight up ice, if you re-visit the videos).

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B) I understand concussion problems.
But not enough to explain to the medical world why Lindros' concussions seemed to have taken a larger toll on him than other players who may have endured a similar number of them, right? Or how different players recover from them. Right? Right.

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C) Forsberg never declined in skill like Lindros did. When Forsberg came back from an injury he was selected to all-star teams and won a hart.
Lindros came back from a knee injury to win the Hart and Art Ross the following year... Lindros didn't really "decline in skill", btw, unless you're talking about the skills attributed to physicality. He simply stopped being able to play symptom free, or with the physical impetus of before. He scored more goals at 28 than Forsberg did at any time during his career, btw, and that's after missing an entire season due to concussion issues. Different players, different skills/strengths. Lindros was always twice the goal scorer Forsberg was, but not so much the skater/playmaker.

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07-01-2014, 03:29 PM
  #120
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On my Dream Time, I would love to see the very best of Eric Lindros skate on that first line with Gretzky and Lemieux. Gretzky and Lemieux were god-like goal scorers, but they were even better play-makers. Having a big, mean, physical presence like Lindros on that line, with his soft hands and ability to finish would be something to see. Gretzky and Lemieux would be hovering around the 200 assist mark by the end of the season.

Somehow, slotting Forsberg in place of Lindros on that same line, loses something.

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07-01-2014, 05:58 PM
  #121
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Hahaha, yeah, Forsberg's separated shoulder was NOT from playing the same physical forechecking style we all know him for...
Because only the most physical Centers get separated shoulders? Exactly how physical was Wayne Gretzky in 1984? Or Joe Sakic in 2001? Or Sergei Fedorov in 1995? Or Mike Modano in 1998? Or Henrik Zetterberg in 2010? Or Alexei Kovalev in 1999?

It's ice hockey. Yes, a separated shoulder is the type of injury that even the less-physical Centers would receive.


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But wait... I think you're actually agreeing with me here that Forsberg, "like any other centre not named ______", regularly missed time - even during the early years. I'm glad you finally came around on that one.
Your refusal to agree that a player who is the 9th most healthy player at his position over his first five years cannot be described as "always missing time" in his "early years" - and certainly cannot be compared to Lindros in that regard - is becoming rather silly.


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And you know who is still on that same list with over 300 GP? Lindros. Also a fact. Less than 10 games per season difference between them, and you're telling me here that <10 games missed is "nothing", so...
Peter Forsberg was 26 GP behind leader Chris Gratton. Lindros was 39 GP behind Forsberg and 65 GP behind Gratton. And those aren't Lindros' first five years. In his first five years, Lindros was 75 GP behind leader Doug Gilmour.

So your attempt to show that the description of always missing time fit Forsberg's early years almost as much as it fit Lindros' early years has missed the mark by almost 300%.


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Yeah, I'm even more comfortable now that before saying that "always missing time" still suitably describes Forsberg - no matter the cause, no matter the duration.
I'm worried that you think that goalies are "always missing time" too, just because they don't have 82 GP.


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No, it's not. His "immediate" impact starts with one of the most impressive rookie seasons since Gretzky
"One of" being pretty key there. Stastny, Lemieux, Selanne, and Hawerchuk were better between 1980 and 1993. Hell, with the big deal you made about his one Hart vote, I'd think you'd be arguing that Juneau and Potvin were better too, since they got Calder nominations and Lindros didn't.

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07-01-2014, 06:15 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because only the most physical Centers get separated shoulders? Exactly how physical was Wayne Gretzky in 1984? Or Joe Sakic in 2001? Or Sergei Fedorov in 1995? Or Mike Modano in 1998? Or Henrik Zetterberg in 2010? Or Alexei Kovalev in 1999?

It's ice hockey. Yes, a separated shoulder is the type of injury that even the less-physical Centers would receive.
So you haven't seen Forsberg play nor are you aware of his playing style? That's the only explanation for someone who would actually pursue this entire line of discussion.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Your refusal to agree that a player who is the 9th most healthy player at his position over his first five years cannot be described as "always missing time" in his "early years" - and certainly cannot be compared to Lindros in that regard - is becoming rather silly.

Peter Forsberg was 26 GP behind leader Chris Gratton. Lindros was 39 GP behind Forsberg and 65 GP behind Gratton. And those aren't Lindros' first five years. In his first five years, Lindros was 75 GP behind leader Doug Gilmour.

So your attempt to show that the description of always missing time fit Forsberg's early years almost as much as it fit Lindros' early years has missed the mark by almost 300%.
Wow! 300%! I bet that number seems important to you in this little semantics tangent, but the difference in their GP/season is well within 10 games/season of each other, and Forsberg only has five 70+ game seasons (only one coming in his first 3 years) to compare with Lindros' four, so this isn't exactly an area in which Forsberg makes up any ground on Lindros for comparison.

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I'm worried that you think that goalies are "always missing time" too, just because they don't have 82 GP.
Yeah, supreme logical extension there... Don't bend over too far trying to be argumentative that you pull something...

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
"One of" being pretty key there. Stastny, Lemieux, Selanne, and Hawerchuk were better between 1980 and 1993. Hell, with the big deal you made about his one Hart vote, I'd think you'd be arguing that Juneau and Potvin were better too, since they got Calder nominations and Lindros didn't.
But most importantly, Forsberg's didn't "rank" as highly, and thus he had less of an immediate impact. Sounds like you're coming around to the idea, though there's still obviously fight left in you.

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07-01-2014, 07:35 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Forsberg only has five 70+ game seasons (only one coming in his first 3 years) to compare with Lindros' four, so this isn't exactly an area in which Forsberg makes up any ground on Lindros for comparison.
Are you kidding? How is Forsberg supposed to play 70 GP in 1994-95?

Forsberg's 65 GP 1996-97 was sandwiched by four years in which he played 78 GP on average. The only time in Lindros' first 10 years in which he hit something resembling 78 GP - let alone averaged it over a series of years - was the lockout season (46/48) where his injuries cost him more playoff games than regular season games.

You are wrong about the beginning of Forsberg's career. That's all there is to it.


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But most importantly, Forsberg's didn't "rank" as highly, and thus he had less of an immediate impact. Sounds like you're coming around to the idea, though there's still obviously fight left in you.
As if it wasn't covered in my first response...

Rookie Season
Lindros finished 67th in scoring and 23rd in points-per-game.
Forsberg finished 14th in scoring and 18th in points-per game.

And now that we've finally come full-circle, I'm out.

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07-01-2014, 09:36 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
As if it wasn't covered in my first response...

Rookie Season
Lindros finished 67th in scoring and 23rd in points-per-game.
Forsberg finished 14th in scoring and 18th in points-per game.

And now that we've finally come full-circle, I'm out.
As if this wasn't covered in my first response, and as if, when we think of all the greatest rookie seasons of all time, we don't think of Lindros ahead of Forsberg. I mean, unlike Lindros, Forsberg actually won the Calder, but it seems as though Lindros' is still the one that gets held in higher regard because of the immediate impact he had as a player. To think that he was a few years younger in comparison...

Since we have, indeed, come back to where we began, I'm also out.

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07-01-2014, 10:17 PM
  #125
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I don't consider Lindros having the better rookie season than Forsberg. Am I the only one?

I also do think that saying Forsberg missed time in his first years almost just as much as Lindros is obviously false. Like quoipourquoi explained.

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