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What is the biggest problem on the leafs this season?

View Poll Results: What is the biggest problem on the leafs this season?
Management (poor signings, personnel choices etc ) 20 17.70%
Coaching (system, player usage etc) 43 38.05%
Useless 4th Line (particularly the goons) 2 1.77%
Third line checkers with no offense (mclemment at 15 to 20min per night) 4 3.54%
Lack of quality depth in D-core 14 12.39%
Lack of Top 6 defensive skill and grit (puck retrieval/puck battle compete) 19 16.81%
Injuries/Suspensions (Bolland, Bozak etc) 11 9.73%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-09-2014, 11:07 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
So the Leafs success last year was because of Nonis, but their failure this year is because of Burke even though half of his players are now gone?
The additions of Orr, McLaren, Fraser and Komarov gave the team an identity last year of push back and not get pushed around.. They were intimidating and hard to play against, lead the NHL in fighting majors and set the tone of the game.

This year those players are either gone, or have little impact (healthy scratches), ineffective on the current teams desired to dictate the play and the team has once again fallen into bad habits of the past of the team, lacks energy and desire to engage. In only 7 of 44 games have they out-shot and out-chanced an opponent and carried the play and attack.

You tell me what you think is the problem with this team and why they get outworked, outplayed and outshot by almost every team this year both those above and behind them in the standings.

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01-09-2014, 11:11 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
What? It's basically the same team as last year.
same coach as last year, same systems as last year as well.

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01-09-2014, 11:12 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The additions of Orr, McLaren, Fraser and Komarov gave the team an identity last year of push back and not get pushed around.. They were intimidating and hard to play against, lead the NHL in fighting majors and set the tone of the game.

This year those players are either gone, or have little impact (healthy scratches), ineffective on the current teams desired to dictate the play and the team has once again fallen into bad habits of the past of the team, lacks energy and desire to engage. In only 7 of 44 games have they out-shot and out-chanced an opponent and carried the play and attack.


You tell me what you think is the problem with this team and why they get outworked, outplayed and outshot by almost every team this year both those above and behind them in the standings
.
Randy Carlyle

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Old
01-09-2014, 11:15 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by notdoneyet View Post
IMO the leafs are playing like they want to get the coach fired.

No Passion at all.
44 games this year, 48 games last and 18 more to close out 2012.

You're talking about just a little sample of 110 games as coach total and that includes almost all of this years 44 games where the team played without passion and heart.

Not going to find many <= 100 game examples of a coaches time running out with his players over the course of history particularly ones that made the playoffs for the first time in nearly a decade under his direction.

Maybe the players are playing like that because they themselves lack the character traits of heart and desire and determination to give a care what happens. Maybe it was these flaws as to why they were available to the Leafs and other teams deemed them expendable in the first place.

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01-09-2014, 11:16 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
44 games this year, 48 games last and 18 more to close out 2012.

You're talking about just a little of 110 games as coach total and that includes almost all of this years 44 games where the team played without passion and heart.

Not going to find many <= 100 game examples of a coaches time running out with his players over the course of history particularly ones that made the playoffs for the first time in nearly a decade under his direction.
So what. It is plainly evident that Randy Carlyle wants them to play a collapse low on defense, dump and chase on offense type game. We lack the personnel to execute this dated strategy. Why give im another 100 games to prove something that has already shown to be ineffective.

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01-09-2014, 11:25 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by leafstilldeath View Post
Randy Carlyle
RC is the reason they get outworked? RC is the reason they just don't show up from the opening puck-drop?

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01-09-2014, 11:27 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by leafstilldeath View Post
Randy Carlyle
Nonis did inherit him with the job and every GM is allowed to put his own coach in place. Maybe its just another inherited mess that the GM needs to clean up.

Carlyle systems have proven successful in the past because he has a Stanley Cup ring to prove it, and he did get this rag tag bunch of cast-offs into the playoffs last year through his coaching.

What have Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, JVR etc done to prove they can be successful without coaches influence, by taking the man behind the bench out of the equation?

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01-09-2014, 11:32 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Everlong View Post
Consistency.
The Leafs are consistent. Consistently bad.

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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Management, covers coaching.
Bingo. Management chooses the coach and players.

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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Carlyle systems have proven successful in the past because he has a Stanley Cup ring to prove it, and he did get this rag tag bunch of cast-offs into the playoffs last year through his coaching.
Does anyone still seriously believe the Leafs making the playoffs was due to anything but great shooting luck and some exceptional hot streaks from players like Kadri and Lupul? Management even got rid of some of the players Carlyle hated to make room for Bolland (good until he got injured) and Clarkson (disaster). How has that worked out so far?

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01-09-2014, 11:35 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kessley Snipes View Post
So what. It is plainly evident that Randy Carlyle wants them to play a collapse low on defense, dump and chase on offense type game. We lack the personnel to execute this dated strategy. Why give im another 100 games to prove something that has already shown to be ineffective.
So why isn't the solution also to trade and remove the pond hockey players that lack heart and desire and replace them with ones that do?

Leafs are weak at center so they lose draws and lose time of possession and also lead the NHL in give-aways and turnovers. If you're giving the other team the puck because of your player personnel weaknesses of the group that isn't on the coach.

You can't teach hockey IQ or force players to win more key draws or make smarter on ice decisions and no matter which coach is behind the bench. Heart and desire are intangible character traits of an individual player they either have it or they don't, you can't teach nor instruct them to care.

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01-09-2014, 11:37 AM
  #85
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How am I only the 2nd person to have voted for useless 4th line? Come on people. Orr-McLaren-McClement HAS NOT been getting the job done. Go look at premier teams and compare their 4th lines to ours and see how they grind, how they check, and then see how our 4th line DOES NONE of these things!

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01-09-2014, 11:38 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
So why isn't the solution also to trade and remove the pond hockey players that lack heart and desire and replace them with ones that do?

Leafs are weak at center so they lose draws and lose time of possession and also lead the NHL in give-aways and turnovers. If you're giving the other team the puck because of your player personnel weaknesses of the group that isn't on the coach.

You can't teach hockey IQ or force players to win more key draws or make smarter on ice decisions and no matter which coach is behind the bench. Heart and desire are intangible character traits of an individual player they either have it or they don't, you can't teach nor instruct them to care.
So I take it you voted management, then?

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01-09-2014, 11:40 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Marcel Cousineau View Post
How am I only the 2nd person to have voted for useless 4th line? Come on people. Orr-McLaren-McClement HAS NOT been getting the job done. Go look at premier teams and compare their 4th lines to ours and see how they grind, how they check, and then see how our 4th line DOES NONE of these things!
A line that plays 5 minutes a night isn't the difference here.

How many games this year has that been the 4th line?

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01-09-2014, 11:47 AM
  #88
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Dave Nonis broke my heart.

I thought it was time. I thought Bell/Rogers came in and got rid of Burke for a reason. To begin a proper rebuild on the fly.

Then he resigned Bozak - ok whatever.
Then he traded for Dave Bolland? Ughhh really
Bernier I have no problems with - cheap - unproven goalie with a ton of potential - great pickup.
Then Clarkson - Ughhh really?
Then he resigned Kessel - big mistake.
Then the final nail in coffin Dion - with a NTC.

Effectively this offseason has set the franchise back another 3-4 years.
We might sniff at the playoffs during that time. Hell we might even get in - only to be bounced in first round.

We will be no further ahead then we are today - or were 6 years ago - 9 years ago ...
We will draft 10-15 - guys like Ross, Biggs, Percy, Gauthier will have relatively zero impact at the NHL level.

Coaches will change. 3rd liners/5th and 6th defence man swapped out. Prospects will rise and ultimately fall due to not overachieving their projected ceilings.

This is the saddest era I have ever experienced as a Maple Leaf fan in 30 years.

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01-09-2014, 11:49 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
What is the biggest problem on the leafs this season?
1. Management (poor signings, personnel choices etc )
2. Coaching (system, player usage, line ups etc)
3. Useless 4th Line (particularly the goons)
4. Third line checkers with no offense (mclemment at 15 to 20min per night)
5. Lack of quality depth in D-core
6. Lack of Top 6 defensive skill and grit (puck retrieval/puck battle compete)
7. Injuries/Suspensions (Bolland, Bozak etc)
I'd say its a combo of almost all of these things, but I voted for # 4. I think that the coaches fall in love with players that play a "safe game" or a game that the like and then over play them. Jay Mclemment is the perfect example, who cares if he shuts the best guys on the other team down because the very best thing that can happen when his line is on the ice is 0 goals. Every minute he is one the ice is one that our best players are not playing.

IMO every player minus 1 or 2 are playing at least one line or pair above where they should be. Players are not playing hard or in roles where they can succeed.


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01-09-2014, 11:49 AM
  #90
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We have to pick just one?

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01-09-2014, 11:52 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour View Post
So I take it you voted management, then?
Before last shortened season, this current teams player personnel finished in the bottom 5 overall in 2 of the last 3 seasons. (That's how we ended up with Morgan Rielly from the draft lottery. )

The previous management team GM and coach have already be fired and replaced that lead the team to those poor 18-wheeler results. Ownership already attached accountability for the failure of the past by voting management the problem and made a change. I fully agreed and voted management myself as to why we are here today.

Perhaps this team simply isn't very good on player personnel and last year was simply an anomaly, of a lockout shortened season without a training camp that changed perception that magically the same flawed players that produced losing results consistently year after year in the past had changed overnight. Perhaps slapping a bunch of other teams unwantables together in hopes of success is simply a bad idea that often produces these types of failed results and why other successful teams don't deploy it.

New management has just been in charge for about a calendar year so how much time should they be afford the opportunity to fix a roster of players they inherited?


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01-09-2014, 12:26 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
New management has just been in charge for about a calendar year so how much time should they be afford the opportunity to fix a roster of players they inherited?
Nonis was senior VP and Burke's right-hand man for four years before becoming GM, it's not like he had nothing to do with the roster he inherited. That roster - which I guess you'd give Burke most of the credit for assembling - at least lucked into a playoff spot. This roster is barely holding onto one and performing at least as badly, if not worse, than last season. So it's pretty odd that upper management decided to give Nonis five more years to keep trucking on, especially since Nonis has so far kept Carlyle and given big extensions to Kessel and Phaneuf rather than drastically reshaping the roster.

Personally, I don't think Nonis should have been given the job in the first place, so I'm not sure what I can say about how long he should keep it.

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01-09-2014, 12:32 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Dave Nonis broke my heart.

I thought it was time. I thought Bell/Rogers came in and got rid of Burke for a reason. To begin a proper rebuild on the fly.

Then he resigned Bozak - ok whatever.
Then he traded for Dave Bolland? Ughhh really
Bernier I have no problems with - cheap - unproven goalie with a ton of potential - great pickup.
Then Clarkson - Ughhh really?
Then he resigned Kessel - big mistake.
Then the final nail in coffin Dion - with a NTC.

Effectively this offseason has set the franchise back another 3-4 years.
We might sniff at the playoffs during that time. Hell we might even get in - only to be bounced in first round.

We will be no further ahead then we are today - or were 6 years ago - 9 years ago ...
We will draft 10-15 - guys like Ross, Biggs, Percy, Gauthier will have relatively zero impact at the NHL level.

Coaches will change. 3rd liners/5th and 6th defence man swapped out. Prospects will rise and ultimately fall due to not overachieving their projected ceilings.

This is the saddest era I have ever experienced as a Maple Leaf fan in 30 years.
This is my issue with Nonis. He's great at making MINOR moves but absolutely useless at making major difference changes that will ultimately benefit the team in the long run.

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01-09-2014, 12:51 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour View Post
Nonis was senior VP and Burke's right-hand man for four years before becoming GM, it's not like he had nothing to do with the roster he inherited. That roster - which I guess you'd give Burke most of the credit for assembling - at least lucked into a playoff spot. This roster is barely holding onto one and performing at least as badly, if not worse, than last season. So it's pretty odd that upper management decided to give Nonis five more years to keep trucking on, especially since Nonis has so far kept Carlyle and given big extensions to Kessel and Phaneuf rather than drastically reshaping the roster.

Personally, I don't think Nonis should have been given the job in the first place, so I'm not sure what I can say about how long he should keep it.
Kessel and Phaneuf were on expiring contracts and asset/risk management suggests it would be better to re-sign them then let them walk away as UFAs at seasons end for nothing or try and trade them for scraps mid season unable to return fair value in trade by dealing them as rental players at the trade deadline particularly if the Leafs were in a playoff position at that time.

During the season many teams are tight against the cap ceiling unable to make trades accordingly and with the cap dropping by $6 mil this year due to the lockout we have another cap anomaly that had teams scrambling to comply.

The best time to trade Kessel and Phaneuf would be in the off-season when teams have plenty of cap room as teams can exceed the cap by 10% in addition to the hard ceiling and are rebuilding their teams for the upcoming season.

Strategically also a patient GM would give himself out clauses on his contracts to allow him to trade players even under long term deals with modified NTC being a part of those contracts.. Kessel's deal has such a clause that he needs to yearly submit a list of 8 teams that he would accept being traded to without consent and according to TSN Phaneuf's new deal has a list of 10 or more teams in his NTC clause.

So Nonis has protected his assets and opened the door simultaneously to deal them in the future when he can extract equal or better return when timing and trades are more prevalent and teams have the desire and room for change to occur in a Cap World. If these Leafs were considered lifers based on contracts issued there would be no need for drawn out contract talks hinging on modified NTC clauses to give a GM options out of these deals through trade.

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01-09-2014, 01:07 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
44 games this year, 48 games last and 18 more to close out 2012.

You're talking about just a little sample of 110 games as coach total and that includes almost all of this years 44 games where the team played without passion and heart.

Not going to find many <= 100 game examples of a coaches time running out with his players over the course of history particularly ones that made the playoffs for the first time in nearly a decade under his direction.

Maybe the players are playing like that because they themselves lack the character traits of heart and desire and determination to give a care what happens. Maybe it was these flaws as to why they were available to the Leafs and other teams deemed them expendable in the first place.
Most definitely.....our core is made up of cast offs.....players that were deemed expendable by other teams.....for the most part we acquired them through trade. They come with their warts....no desire lacking intensity and not able to change their ways. We need to change the mentality of the players that losing is not going to sit well with no one in the dressing room.

I say we need to make a big trade and let the whole team know that either you come prepared to do what it takes to win or we will find someone who will in your place. We need to cut the head off of this snake.....

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01-09-2014, 01:21 PM
  #96
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I voted for lack of D depth but I wish I would have chose injuries. We lost our top two centres as did the Wings. We did just as well as the Wings(or just as badly). However, I do not hear anyone calling for Babcock to be fired. I don't think he is in danger of losing his job with the Olympic team. Why does Carlyle take abuse but Babcock not? Both lost their top two centres and both teams performed the same, except Carlyle still has Bolland out and Zetterburg is back. What am I missing here?

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01-09-2014, 01:26 PM
  #97
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Most definitely.....our core is made up of cast offs.....players that were deemed expendable by other teams.....for the most part we acquired them through trade. They come with their warts....no desire lacking intensity and not able to change their ways. We need to change the mentality of the players that losing is not going to sit well with no one in the dressing room.

I say we need to make a big trade and let the whole team know that either you come prepared to do what it takes to win or we will find someone who will in your place. We need to cut the head off of this snake.....
In Toronto this is referred to as "Blue and White disease", or "Sense of Entitlement" and it refers to the players and their attitudes and complacency.

To become a blue collar hard working team giving maximum effort with the dogged determination that losing and mediocrity is unacceptable is going to take further player personnel changes to cut out the disease that plagues the current roster.

A leopard never changes its spots so you're not going to change a flawed player no mater what you say or do.

If you look on winning teams you're gong to find miles and miles of heart, character and leadership in its core and support players. Losing is not an option mentality and a will to win drives success.

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01-09-2014, 01:32 PM
  #98
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For me its a few things.

The D Zone system is atrocious and leads to all our problems. They play that stupid collapse system while sure taking away that grade A chance it also provides the opposition with numerous point shots which results in sustain pressure against us and not playing enough offence. That is why we get outshot by a lot. Sure they are shots far out but traffic or deflections has lead to many goals to put a bullet thru Caryle theory of goalies should be stopping the point shots.

Our 4th line is dunno atrocious having the facepunchers on there makes for a 3 line team which gets gassed and usually shows up in the 3rd with piss poor efforts.

No balance scoring which is part of the reason those facepunchers should be in the lineup. Mclement should be 4C but with Carlyle using the old Pahlson shutdown theory he plays them too much and they are an offensive black hole. They should be the 4th line and Holland should be playing on the 3rd line.

I don't think our D is as bad as people think. Don't forget we play a D zone system that is opposite to what any D learned as a kid all the way up to the pro's. If the winger was covering his point he would be in position to receive the puck around the boards and not let it get to the D for more shots and pressure. Also watch the good teams their C is usually down low waiting for a quick pass to start the break out not in a position to be unavailable to receive a pass.

I wonder if they went back to a system they learn in Timbits it would be better.....seriously

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01-09-2014, 02:27 PM
  #99
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The most crucial and consistent reason is lack of heart and team first/winning psychology.

We can't always blame the coaches, we have a good coach, def better than RW, at some point we should ask ourselves why are the Leafs always going through extended slumps year after year? Are they listening to the coaches? If not why?

Its bc the players priorities are in the following order: their contracts($), personal stats and then the team/organization they represent.

Also, consider the effects of Ron Wilson/Brian Burke and their influence on certain players like Phaneuf, Kessel, Lupul, Bozak, Gunner, Kadri etc They are now hard wired to think "we just have to make the playoffs" and or they have grown accustomed to loosing or slumps

The psychology of this team needs a huge shift.
I think our talent level is sufficient to make it to the second round of playoffs but our psychology will yield squeeking into the playoffs and loosing in the first round.

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01-09-2014, 08:04 PM
  #100
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Wow... Look at this team!
I rest my case.

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