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Who do you keep? Bailey/Grabner

View Poll Results: If there trade value was equal, who would you prefer to trade?
Bailey 65 65.66%
Grabner 34 34.34%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-12-2013, 03:10 AM
  #26
Paulinho
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Voted Grabner before i read the actual question. I thought it was a who is better question. Anyway the answer to the op's question is Bailey, he brings absolutely nothing to the table. No scoring, no defense, no physical play, nothing. I wouldn't hesitate to move him in a package for a goalie for D.

As far as Grabner goes he has been pretty awful this year but he has to turn it around at some point. I like what he brings to the PK also, not this years PK.

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12-12-2013, 05:34 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Richie Daggers Crime View Post
This "Bailey is good defensively" trope needs to go away. He's fine, but Guy Carbonneau he ain't. Everything about Bailey is just ridiculously and tragically average.
^^ This. I call Bailey Mr. Mediocre. He is so mediocre that he does nothing really well, nothing really poorly, so in the end, he does nothing at all in a hockey sense, he is just there. He is of average size, average strength, average speed, average quickness, average shot, average IQ, and yes, average passing (or he would have many more assist points over the seasons), I am not a Baley hater and understand that he was rushed, positions switched, paired with the lesser of our top 6 and somethimes top 9 forwards, but he has not found the key to improving his play to the level of hs draft status beyond mere spurts. His recently signed contract makes him the logical candidate for being moved over Grabner, who I view as a nuclear weapon, armed and ready, just waiting for the right aiming and guidance targeting. The 2 goals in 20+ games is not the real Grabner, neither was the 34 in 82 games the real Grabner. He is somewhere around a 20-25 goal guy, and he will get there. Bailey looks to be a 30-35 point, self-limiting player who can not summon the resolve or attention to become all that he could be.

Keep Grabs over Bailey.


Last edited by BillD: 12-12-2013 at 05:39 AM.
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Old
12-12-2013, 06:18 AM
  #28
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Hmmm, leprosy or rabies, leprosy or rabies......

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12-12-2013, 07:40 AM
  #29
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I would much rather dump Grabner.

Although Grabner is used on the pk more, I think Bailey is the better defensive forward. For the past two seasons, he has been used against opposing teams' top lines with Nielsen. As bad as he has been this season in the offensive zone, his CORSI is even, despite the matchups.

It is clear he doesn't have the mentality to be a top-flight offensive player (btw, anyone else think he should ask Okposo for his therapist's name?) but I think he has the size and smarts to be a part of a very good shutdown line with occasional offensive production. That has significant value.

Grabner has the speed, but I find him to be an all or nothing player, if he doesn't get the breakaway opportunity he isn't adding much.

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Old
12-12-2013, 07:45 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Grabs is struggling so much, he's nothing like the34 goal scorer. He used to be a joy to watch,exciting, dynamic,breakaway threat every shift, impossible to defend. He was a. Floater and perimeter player too.

Now, he's much better all around. He's a much better passer. He will make a hit, take a hit. Yet all his explosiveness and offensive threat is gone. He's very difficult to play with and match up with, though I believe Frans is his best centre, possibly Zeeker, definitely not Regin.

Bailey has much more all around talent and ability, but is horribly inconsistent. The lack of effort and tenacity kills his game. He's far to skilled to be invisible for weeks at a time, inexcusable. Mind you, Cappy is a master at getting the least possible out of a player (there is evidence everywhere) and Bailey fits the bill, but it's mostly on the player.

I think Bailey is more fixable than Grabner.
But both suck horribly this year.
I think this is a key point. I would not want to trade either of them until the team has a real coach. Bailey has never played for a coach with prior NHL experience, and Grabner was limited to a few games in Vancouver.

Considering that there are only two players I have seen improve under Capuano (Tavares and Okposo, and Okposo is breaking out at age 25), it is pretty clear that players do not develop under Capuano.

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Old
12-12-2013, 08:45 AM
  #31
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I think skill-wise they are probably equal so to me, you can't teach speed. Both are soft as snowflakes and neither are "finishers", Bailey is probably more versatile as he can play wing or center. Keep Grabner for the speed factor but would have both on the trading blocks if someone was willing to give us a better value.

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12-12-2013, 09:06 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
I think this is a key point. I would not want to trade either of them until the team has a real coach. Bailey has never played for a coach with prior NHL experience, and Grabner was limited to a few games in Vancouver.

Considering that there are only two players I have seen improve under Capuano (Tavares and Okposo, and Okposo is breaking out at age 25), it is pretty clear that players do not develop under Capuano.
Okposo's shown consistency since mid-last year. It's puzzling how poorly so many players have played though.

I'm not sure it's Capuano.

Does Cappy get credit for Grabner's 34 goal season? Grabs took off as soon as Gordon was fired.

Or does Cappy get blamed for Nino's poor development, at least in part?

Comeau had 24 goals when Cappy had him, but the next year he was scoreless in 16 games and DONE. He's been mediocre-to-poor since then.

It's a bit chicken-egg because players develop in better environments, or so we think. The Isles haven't had any good environment, good coaching/mentoring, or even brought in excellent players to balance/develop the younger ones, so it's hard to put it solely/mostly on the coach.

This is tough because there are so many variables at all levels, hard to isolate one. Poor GM, poor coach, poor vets and uncertainty with the youth.

To your key point, that I agree with, for whatever reason(s), only Tavares and Okposo have developed under Capuano. Maybe there's a couple of others, like Hamonic, Cizikas/Hickey/Martin to a lesser extent....not anyone else though.

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12-12-2013, 09:19 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Okposo's shown consistency since mid-last year. It's puzzling how poorly so many players have played though.

I'm not sure it's Capuano.

Does Cappy get credit for Grabner's 34 goal season? Grabs took off as soon as Gordon was fired.

Or does Cappy get blamed for Nino's poor development, at least in part?

Comeau had 24 goals when Cappy had him, but the next year he was scoreless in 16 games and DONE. He's been mediocre-to-poor since then.

It's a bit chicken-egg because players develop in better environments, or so we think. The Isles haven't had any good environment, good coaching/mentoring, or even brought in excellent players to balance/develop the younger ones, so it's hard to put it solely/mostly on the coach.

This is tough because there are so many variables at all levels, hard to isolate one. Poor GM, poor coach, poor vets and uncertainty with the youth.

To your key point, that I agree with, for whatever reason(s), only Tavares and Okposo have developed under Capuano. Maybe there's a couple of others, like Hamonic, Cizikas/Hickey/Martin to a lesser extent....not anyone else though.
See, I don't think Hamonic, Cizikas or Martin have developed at all. I think each of them is still playing at a pretty similar level to when they were initially called up.

Not saying it is all Caupano's fault, maybe it is on the players Snow has drafted/acquired. But I would like to see a coach with a proven track record brought in before we trade everyone away.

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Old
12-12-2013, 09:37 AM
  #34
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See, I don't think Hamonic, Cizikas or Martin have developed at all. I think each of them is still playing at a pretty similar level to when they were initially called up.
yeah. I debated (with myself ) whether to include players that haven't gotten worse, as though they've gotten better. That's how low some of our expectations are with this group.

Quote:
Not saying it is all Caupano's fault, maybe it is on the players Snow has drafted/acquired. But I would like to see a coach with a proven track record brought in before we trade everyone away.
Hell yes. It could happen if/when Wang sells the team. Breath firmly held, starting........now.

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Old
12-12-2013, 10:58 AM
  #35
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I voted Bailey.

When the team is playing like garbage during a game, Cappy's schizophrenic line management takes over and seems to only make matters worse. Grabner moves up with Nielsen, Clutterbuck moves up with Tavares, Nelson moves up to the top line, Nelson moves to Regin's line, Nelson is moved to center with Grabner, MacDonald makes his way to Nielsen's line, Okposo goes to Nielsen's line, Hamonic/Hickey, Hickey/Carkner, MacDonald/Hickey, Grabner moves to the 4th line, Martin moves up to Regin's line., etc, etc. And Cappy has no patience...these players are moved around...and when nothing happens after only a couple shifts, he puts them back where they were at the beginning of the game or moves them elsewhere. There is no chance for these players to develop some chemistry and stability.

The only consistents I've noticed...the centers seem to remain the same and Bailey has generally stayed in the same spot on Nielsen's wing. Ultimately, I am not the least bit surprised that Grabner is not producing on a line with Regin and Clutterbuck. I think Grabner's defensive play and speed would be way more effective with Nielsen or Tavares at center...but we won't know unless Cappy puts him there for a good length of time and not this one, two, three shifts, one or two game nonsense.

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12-12-2013, 11:17 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Okposo's shown consistency since mid-last year. It's puzzling how poorly so many players have played though.

I'm not sure it's Capuano.

Does Cappy get credit for Grabner's 34 goal season? Grabs took off as soon as Gordon was fired.

Or does Cappy get blamed for Nino's poor development, at least in part?

Comeau had 24 goals when Cappy had him, but the next year he was scoreless in 16 games and DONE. He's been mediocre-to-poor since then.

It's a bit chicken-egg because players develop in better environments, or so we think. The Isles haven't had any good environment, good coaching/mentoring, or even brought in excellent players to balance/develop the younger ones, so it's hard to put it solely/mostly on the coach.

This is tough because there are so many variables at all levels, hard to isolate one. Poor GM, poor coach, poor vets and uncertainty with the youth.

To your key point, that I agree with, for whatever reason(s), only Tavares and Okposo have developed under Capuano. Maybe there's a couple of others, like Hamonic, Cizikas/Hickey/Martin to a lesser extent....not anyone else though.

This is why I vote for Grabner. Okposo breaking out at 25, finally showing consistency. Why can't that be Bailey? If traded to other teams with real coaches, I expect Bailey to improve. Grabner just is what he is. He just needs to get a damn bounce already and get some goals. He's really doing very little wrong, the puck just isn't going. So we are witnessing a terribly slumping, non-confident, worst of Bailey versus a snakebitten Grabner.

Any time I put lines together, I think Grabner is the hardest to place in this line up. I find most teams would follow suit. It's like he needs to be in our 3rd line LW slot by default -- and he isn't your prototypical 3rd liner. He just doesn't really go anywhere else, and he needs to be matched up with the right linemates and definitely needs to be in the right system, yet he isn't good enough to build a system around. He's such a weird player. For instance, he wouldn't fit on a LOT of defensive, methodical western teams -- teams that grind out wins. He needs an open style. I think Bailey, especially with proper coaching, can fit almost anywhere. I personally would have done something to get Bailey going, because this team needs him and someone else (Nielsen, Strome, someone) to get points and sustained offensive pressure. Maybe playing him with JT for a bit when Vanek was out, or when Okposo wasn't scoring.

I don't disagree that he's mediocre at just about everything these days. He showed some flashes, but is kind of just lost. Such a shame. But I would argue he has more potential than Grabner in pretty much every category but speed. Bottom line, I'd package either of them for some D in a heartbeat.

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12-12-2013, 11:25 AM
  #37
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Grabner has 1 elite skill and is a fine PKer, all his other skills are pretty much sub par.

Bailey doesn't have any elite skills, but he has average-good skills in many different areas. I don't know why he's playing so poorly, but I do think he's potentially a better overall player. Frankly I think we should look to replace both of them. however, for the purposes of this thread, I keep Bailey & trade Grabner.

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Old
12-12-2013, 06:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13th Floor View Post
This is why I vote for Grabner. Okposo breaking out at 25, finally showing consistency. Why can't that be Bailey? If traded to other teams with real coaches, I expect Bailey to improve. Grabner just is what he is. He just needs to get a damn bounce already and get some goals. He's really doing very little wrong, the puck just isn't going. So we are witnessing a terribly slumping, non-confident, worst of Bailey versus a snakebitten Grabner.

Any time I put lines together, I think Grabner is the hardest to place in this line up. I find most teams would follow suit. It's like he needs to be in our 3rd line LW slot by default -- and he isn't your prototypical 3rd liner. He just doesn't really go anywhere else, and he needs to be matched up with the right linemates and definitely needs to be in the right system, yet he isn't good enough to build a system around. He's such a weird player. For instance, he wouldn't fit on a LOT of defensive, methodical western teams -- teams that grind out wins. He needs an open style. I think Bailey, especially with proper coaching, can fit almost anywhere. I personally would have done something to get Bailey going, because this team needs him and someone else (Nielsen, Strome, someone) to get points and sustained offensive pressure. Maybe playing him with JT for a bit when Vanek was out, or when Okposo wasn't scoring.

I don't disagree that he's mediocre at just about everything these days. He showed some flashes, but is kind of just lost. Such a shame. But I would argue he has more potential than Grabner in pretty much every category but speed. Bottom line, I'd package either of them for some D in a heartbeat.
Like I said, speed and HEART! Grabner has more heart. He also isn't a head case. Snakebitten is one thing but if Grabner all the sudden started skating like molasses we could say he had something going on his head. Bailey skill seems to drop to meaningless when he's in a slump (2/3 of the season) and that's all in his head.

You keep saying he will flourish under a new coach, but there is no indication that is going to happen here anytime soon. Would you rather hold on to an barely breathing Bailey his entire career, or try to get a player that we can work with and have Bailey blossom somewhere else. I hope he blossoms somewhere else, because it just ain't gonna happen here. He's Bertuzzi 2.0...

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12-12-2013, 07:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Like I said, speed and HEART! Grabner has more heart. He also isn't a head case. Snakebitten is one thing but if Grabner all the sudden started skating like molasses we could say he had something going on his head. Bailey skill seems to drop to meaningless when he's in a slump (2/3 of the season) and that's all in his head.

You keep saying he will flourish under a new coach, but there is no indication that is going to happen here anytime soon. Would you rather hold on to an barely breathing Bailey his entire career, or try to get a player that we can work with and have Bailey blossom somewhere else. I hope he blossoms somewhere else, because it just ain't gonna happen here. He's Bertuzzi 2.0...
How would you possibly know that?

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12-12-2013, 07:31 PM
  #40
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How would you possibly know that?
I think he's talking about effort level. It's usually pretty obvious who works their butt off on the ice and who isn't. And i'm not necessarily agreeing that Grabs has more heart, but its a reasonable thing to say. You can tell when a player doesn't have their head in the game.

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12-12-2013, 07:59 PM
  #41
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The witch hunt has been well earned! Look, Bailey is talented but he is playing like crap and he's at the point in his career where he should have developed consistency. You can't just disappear for large swaths of time. It is frustrating as hell because you can see he has the skills but he just doesn't produce.

And one oter thing, he's not even close to Grab's defensively. Grabner kills power plays and make defenders have to constantly account for him because of his speed. Bailey is a defensman's dream by never driving to the net!
I don't know what all this 'disappearing' stuff comes from. Where has he gone to? He doesn't have a lot of points, so he's invisible! That is some really deep analysis that the fans go through, and they do it to every player except for JT.

Okposo is playing consistent and well because he's producing points, or at least that's what most people say. I'd disagree. He's still bad at a lot of things and is the beneficiary of playing with great players. If you dropped him off that line his production would stagnate just like Bailey and Nielsen's has.

There is more to playing hockey than producing points and hitting/fighting things. Bailey makes a ton of smart plays with the puck every game that people just don't appreciate. He actually dumps the puck in when there isn't anything else to do instead of trying to do moves around every defender he sees like most of the players on this team. He reads the play incredibly well, and also can create space for himself offensively. He is reluctant to shoot and doesn't play with anyone who is good at finishing, which is a large reason for his lack of production.

He's above average defensively and is able to PK, though he happens to not be the best at it on this team (which is fine), because we have so many good forwards for it (I think most of our PK issues are on the back end).

I'm a huge fan of the little things. Bailey does most of them very well. The things you can knock him for are that he doesn't hit and he doesn't shoot enough. I don't believe in the lack of effort theory that's been flying around, because his game isn't about being tenacious. So it's fine to knock him, but knock him for real things instead of the fan favorite 'disappearing act' shenanigans.

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12-12-2013, 08:09 PM
  #42
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One thing that has been bothering me since last season.... I don't understand why Grabner was never used on the RW after playing there for both Florida and Vancouver. Put Bailey back on LW and see what Grabs has on the right.... it couldn't possibly be worse than what we've got right now.

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12-12-2013, 08:52 PM
  #43
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I don't know what all this 'disappearing' stuff comes from. Where has he gone to? He doesn't have a lot of points, so he's invisible! That is some really deep analysis that the fans go through, and they do it to every player except for JT.

Okposo is playing consistent and well because he's producing points, or at least that's what most people say. I'd disagree. He's still bad at a lot of things and is the beneficiary of playing with great players. If you dropped him off that line his production would stagnate just like Bailey and Nielsen's has.

There is more to playing hockey than producing points and hitting/fighting things. Bailey makes a ton of smart plays with the puck every game that people just don't appreciate. He actually dumps the puck in when there isn't anything else to do instead of trying to do moves around every defender he sees like most of the players on this team. He reads the play incredibly well, and also can create space for himself offensively. He is reluctant to shoot and doesn't play with anyone who is good at finishing, which is a large reason for his lack of production.

He's above average defensively and is able to PK, though he happens to not be the best at it on this team (which is fine), because we have so many good forwards for it (I think most of our PK issues are on the back end).

I'm a huge fan of the little things. Bailey does most of them very well. The things you can knock him for are that he doesn't hit and he doesn't shoot enough. I don't believe in the lack of effort theory that's been flying around, because his game isn't about being tenacious. So it's fine to knock him, but knock him for real things instead of the fan favorite 'disappearing act' shenanigans.
Ok, so you say he doesn't hit, doesn't shoot, doesn't score goals or get assists but he does the little things right that none of us appreciate. And the big excuse is because he doesn't play with finishers, have you seen what Grabner has played with over his career with the Islanders?

Both players are flawed but Bailey's career high in points is a whopping 3 more than Grabner has for GOALS. Bailey is going too hit the 400 game mark this year and unless he goes on a tear you are still looking at a player that topped out at 37 POINTS.

How long do we wait till he can produce?

Edit: Sorry I was wrong. It is 35 points not 37.


Last edited by BigWorm: 12-12-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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12-12-2013, 08:55 PM
  #44
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What I don't get is why everyone thinks Bailey's going to "turn it around." Turn it around to what? This is his sixth year in the NHL and his career high in points is 35! Just because he was drafted in the top 10 doesn't mean he's anything special. After he was drafted, no one was salivating over the "special player" Josh Bailey could become. In fact, most fans were more like "Who the ****** is Josh Bailey?" Stop giving Bailey so much credit for his draft status; he's not a good player and he never will be.

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12-12-2013, 09:53 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BigWorm View Post
Ok, so you say he doesn't hit, doesn't shoot, doesn't score goals or get assists but he does the little things right that none of us appreciate. And the big excuse is because he doesn't play with finishers, have you seen what Grabner has played with over his career with the Islanders?
If you put Bailey with the proper line mates, in the right role, he'd produce in the points category. He isn't going to snipe corners and dance around defenders while driving to the net. He'll possess the puck and make the right pass/the safe play. He gets ripped on for disappearing, but he's still making the right decisions for the situations he's put in. He's put in those situations because of the line he's playing with.

Grabner has something that will give him quality chances over and over again with his speed. He doesn't need to be good at reading the play or puck possession, he just needs to get some open ice and he gets scoring chances. Have you ever seen Grabner try and cycle? How about puck possess? He's not very good at either of those things, which are both significant when playing offense. His points come off the rush, and is why he and Nielsen work well together since they both play a similar style offensively.

Quote:
Both players are flawed but Bailey's career high in points is a whopping 3 more than Grabner has for GOALS. Bailey is going too hit the 400 game mark this year and unless he goes on a tear you are still looking at a player that topped out at 37 POINTS.

How long do we wait till he can produce?

Edit: Sorry I was wrong. It is 35 points not 37.
Who cares how many points he has. Does he take care of the puck? Yes. Does he make the right decisions with the puck? Yes. Does he have more upside than Grabner? Yes. He's the 3rd best forward on this team. It's just unfortunate he's not put in a situation to succeed. Playing with Nielsen who is a defensive center, who is soft in the offensive zone and some random wing for his career. Okposo, who he spent quite a bit of time playing with, doesn't have a high hockey IQ and is a terrible passer. Neither of those things help a guy like Bailey.

I want to see Bailey play with Vanek or JT. I really think his points would explode with the space he'd get.

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12-12-2013, 10:08 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by iLandHer View Post
If you put Bailey with the proper line mates, in the right role, he'd produce in the points category. He isn't going to snipe corners and dance around defenders while driving to the net. He'll possess the puck and make the right pass/the safe play. He gets ripped on for disappearing, but he's still making the right decisions for the situations he's put in. He's put in those situations because of the line he's playing with.

Grabner has something that will give him quality chances over and over again with his speed. He doesn't need to be good at reading the play or puck possession, he just needs to get some open ice and he gets scoring chances. Have you ever seen Grabner try and cycle? How about puck possess? He's not very good at either of those things, which are both significant when playing offense. His points come off the rush, and is why he and Nielsen work well together since they both play a similar style offensively.



Who cares how many points he has. Does he take care of the puck? Yes. Does he make the right decisions with the puck? Yes. Does he have more upside than Grabner? Yes. He's the 3rd best forward on this team. It's just unfortunate he's not put in a situation to succeed. Playing with Nielsen who is a defensive center, who is soft in the offensive zone and some random wing for his career. Okposo, who he spent quite a bit of time playing with, doesn't have a high hockey IQ and is a terrible passer. Neither of those things help a guy like Bailey.

I want to see Bailey play with Vanek or JT. I really think his points would explode with the space he'd get.

As usual your post only makes excuses for how bad Bailey has played. I'm not going to sit here and break apart your entire ramble line by line because that is an attempt at futility.

If all of these great attributes you are espousing on Bailey, why has he never produced in almost 400 GAMES? Grabner has, and he has played with inferior linemates the entire time. He is better defensively than Bailey and he gives this team a presence in the speed game. Bailey is barely average at anything.

I'm shipping Bailey everytime in a trade scenario where equal value is coming back.

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12-12-2013, 10:11 PM
  #47
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Sorry I omitted that I am not averse to trading either of them, along with many other players on this team.

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12-12-2013, 10:20 PM
  #48
Tavares2TheRescue
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Originally Posted by iLandHer View Post
Who cares how many points he has. Does he take care of the puck? Yes. Does he make the right decisions with the puck? Yes. Does he have more upside than Grabner? Yes. He's the 3rd best forward on this team. It's just unfortunate he's not put in a situation to succeed. Playing with Nielsen who is a defensive center, who is soft in the offensive zone and some random wing for his career. Okposo, who he spent quite a bit of time playing with, doesn't have a high hockey IQ and is a terrible passer. Neither of those things help a guy like Bailey.

I want to see Bailey play with Vanek or JT. I really think his points would explode with the space he'd get.
That's kind of the main way to evaluate production for forwards...

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12-12-2013, 10:22 PM
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Sad to see but It appears Bails is a bust , I mean the guy just seems so un-engaged in the game , why was he signed to his deal?

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12-12-2013, 10:27 PM
  #50
PK Cronin
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Originally Posted by BigWorm View Post
As usual your post only makes excuses for how bad Bailey has played. I'm not going to sit here and break apart your entire ramble line by line because that is an attempt at futility.
Right, none of what I said is true at all. He's looked so awful this game. Making all the right plays, yet again.

Quote:
If all of these great attributes you are espousing on Bailey, why has he never produced in almost 400 GAMES? Grabner has, and he has played with inferior linemates the entire time. He is better defensively than Bailey and he gives this team a presence in the speed game. Bailey is barely average at anything.
If you can't grasp the difference in the players abilities and how that impacts their production rates, then you're just lost.

Quote:
I'm shipping Bailey everytime in a trade scenario where equal value is coming back.
Good for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavares2TheRescue View Post
That's kind of the main way to evaluate production for forwards...
Not producing points doesn't mean you've disappeared as many people suggest. It's an important stat, of course, but it's not nearly the end all be all as many people want it to be. I maintain that Bailey is better than Okposo, even though Okposo has outscored Bailey. He happens to be put in a better role at the moment (a role that Bailey looked good in during the playoffs last year and the pre-season this year).

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