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01-09-2014, 10:00 PM
  #1
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Cause for Concern?

During the worst game in the history of professional sports, this article came out in the sun-sentinel. I thought Viola knew what he was getting into?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,7806907.story

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01-09-2014, 10:20 PM
  #2
coopdaloop123
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I don't see it as a huge deal. All teams ask for local handouts even if they can pay for it themselves, free money is free money. Also one of the main stipulations would be that if the Panthers get this funding they would spend up to the cap on par w/ the rest of the NHL. If Viola already plans on doing that then there is no problem if the team is trying to get free money (from their perspective).

However, this sounds an awful lot like the situation w/ the Marlins, just to an obvious lesser dollar figure amount which may sway voters.

In short, I don't think it's anything to worry about too much, especially because I think the Casino will happen someday.

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01-09-2014, 10:26 PM
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ShootIt
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Fun. Cue the Panthers to Quebec posts from hf.

What's interesting is the possibility of rewriting the contract.

Could the new one have an out clause or would it be a longer lease?

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01-09-2014, 11:05 PM
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adam graves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootIt View Post
Fun. Cue the Panthers to Quebec posts from hf.

What's interesting is the possibility of rewriting the contract.

Could the new one have an out clause or would it be a longer lease?
Does it say that or are you intimating that? I don't thing the contract gets rewritten, simply amended.

btw "The Panthers would commit to investing in hockey team payroll "at a level competitive with the rest of the National Hockey League.'' ..should have been in the Marlins clause and that of any franchise using public funding.

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01-10-2014, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
Does it say that or are you intimating that? I don't thing the contract gets rewritten, simply amended.

btw "The Panthers would commit to investing in hockey team payroll "at a level competitive with the rest of the National Hockey League.'' ..should have been in the Marlins clause and that of any franchise using public funding.
"The struggling team is asking for a rewrite of its contract with Broward county. Under the team's proposal, the county would use additional tourism taxes to pick up $70 million in BB&T Center costs currently being paid by the Panthers. The team also hopes to develop 22 acres north of the BB&T arena in Sunrise into a casino-hotel, if the state Legislature enacts laws that allow it this spring."

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01-10-2014, 07:52 AM
  #6
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Granted, I'm not down there and thus can't attend games, don't buy merchandise, but I'm still a die-hard fan of this team and have been for going on 18 years now.

Yet I can not reconcile the notion at all of public money going to relieve normal costs of doing business of a private interest. The profits don't go to Broward County, so the expenses shouldn't. Even if you argue that the County receives a benefit from other businesses being solicited due to Panthers games, it's unlikely to be enough to offset the huge amount of money the public has invested in the arena, much less an additional $70M in expenses. And it's also a phony justification, as there are other businesses not getting benefits from the County that ALSO lead to residual business. Big box retail centers like Wal-Mart & Sam's Club, Costco, Best Buy, etc. tend to draw a lot of customers who also then solicit businesses like restaurants, services, and smaller specialty retailers that are in the same area. None of those retailers ever asks the local government to pick up some of their costs. I've never understood how sports teams get away with it.

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01-10-2014, 08:12 AM
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Appears to me that Viola and his "guys" probably reviewed the contract shortly after purchasing the team (I'd hope they knew what it entailed prior to the purchase as well).

Anyway, Viola seems like a bright guy and I'm sure he has a pretty solid contingent behind him. Clearly there are aspects of this contract they didn't like, so this is what they have decided to bring forward in order to structure it in a way that pleases them. Whether or not this is a good deal for Broward is yet to be seen.

I don't think this has anything to do with his current financial situation, it has more to do with solving the problem of the team bleeding money year after year after year. Sustainability is what Viola is after here.

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01-10-2014, 08:22 AM
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Most of this was set up by Viner prior to him selling the team, I can confirm that 100%. Most of this has little to do with Viola and as you can see Yormark is handling this just like how he handled the new scoreboard request from the county.

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01-10-2014, 10:17 AM
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Playing hardball trying to get rights to build that Casino?

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01-10-2014, 12:07 PM
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Now that the news has been made public to everyone in the local area, this just makes the team seem more pathetic to non-fans. Some are thinking this is just a ploy to get Yormark to get more fans to attend games. I don't know. I'm not really worried. I think things will rebound once this team is competitive in the next year or two and the bandwagon fans will come in droves. I haven't read the main boards yet, but I'm sure there's a twenty page thread on how they're moving to Quebec.

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01-10-2014, 12:16 PM
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I don't there is anything pathetic about this.

The fact is the team is in a non-traditional hockey market and it needs to find new, innovative and non-traditional ways of making money to make it work also for the owners. I don't see anything bad about this really.

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01-10-2014, 01:47 PM
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No you don't find anything bad about this? Ownership has been bad for the majority of the 20 year existence of this team. Now, the new ownership, is asking the public to help them out because they walked into a cesspool? Absolutely not, why do the citizens of Broward county have to pay for the millionaire's toy?

Look it's obvious that the "team" loses money but it's also equally obvious that SSE is making profits annually. SSE is not a NPO and their amounts can easily sustain and run the team. This is a slap in the face to season seat owners, fans, and Broward County. The commission shouldn't give this criminal Yormark a dime. The team has essentially defaulted on the rent (1 year of profits... cmon really?) and has alienated a huge chunk of their fan base. If ownership really wants the team to be profitable they need to put fans in the seats by bringing the talent to south florida. For example, look at our brief playoff stint 2 years ago, pretty sure every game was past capacity. Oh yeah, removing the $20 parking fee for Non-SSOs wouldn't hurt either.

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01-10-2014, 02:04 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
Playing hardball trying to get rights to build that Casino?
Casino decisions are made by state, in Tallahassee.

JOL

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01-10-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flomarilius View Post
No you don't find anything bad about this? Ownership has been bad for the majority of the 20 year existence of this team. Now, the new ownership, is asking the public to help them out because they walked into a cesspool? Absolutely not, why do the citizens of Broward county have to pay for the millionaire's toy?

Look it's obvious that the "team" loses money but it's also equally obvious that SSE is making profits annually. SSE is not a NPO and their amounts can easily sustain and run the team. This is a slap in the face to season seat owners, fans, and Broward County. The commission shouldn't give this criminal Yormark a dime. The team has essentially defaulted on the rent (1 year of profits... cmon really?) and has alienated a huge chunk of their fan base. If ownership really wants the team to be profitable they need to put fans in the seats by bringing the talent to south florida. For example, look at our brief playoff stint 2 years ago, pretty sure every game was past capacity. Oh yeah, removing the $20 parking fee for Non-SSOs wouldn't hurt either.
How are the citizens of Broward County paying for it? Isnt the money coming from a tourism tax? I agree with most of what you said, but how much money does SSE really make, if they are taking a $20-30 million hit from the Panthers every year? Yes, the best way to make money is by being successful on the ice, but in a non-traditional market, other ways need to be at least researched. If keeping the team in South Florida costs tourists a few more bucks, I have no problem with it. But...if they were to agree to this, if I was the County, I would ask them to renew the lease for at least another 10 years, and make a buyout that much more difficult.

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01-10-2014, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Granted, I'm not down there and thus can't attend games, don't buy merchandise, but I'm still a die-hard fan of this team and have been for going on 18 years now.

Yet I can not reconcile the notion at all of public money going to relieve normal costs of doing business of a private interest. The profits don't go to Broward County, so the expenses shouldn't. Even if you argue that the County receives a benefit from other businesses being solicited due to Panthers games, it's unlikely to be enough to offset the huge amount of money the public has invested in the arena, much less an additional $70M in expenses. And it's also a phony justification, as there are other businesses not getting benefits from the County that ALSO lead to residual business. Big box retail centers like Wal-Mart & Sam's Club, Costco, Best Buy, etc. tend to draw a lot of customers who also then solicit businesses like restaurants, services, and smaller specialty retailers that are in the same area. None of those retailers ever asks the local government to pick up some of their costs. I've never understood how sports teams get away with it.
i understand why counties/cities want to have pro sports teams. it ups their profile nationally (unlike a costco ), which may help draw more people to the area (among other reasons like helping businesses). it was only a matter of time until some owner figured out he could play on that and get public money and once it started happening, others figured out how to leverage that ("if you won't give me the money, someone else will and that's where i'll take my team").

i agree with you, though - it's a joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montsy14 View Post
Appears to me that Viola and his "guys" probably reviewed the contract shortly after purchasing the team (I'd hope they knew what it entailed prior to the purchase as well).

Anyway, Viola seems like a bright guy and I'm sure he has a pretty solid contingent behind him. Clearly there are aspects of this contract they didn't like, so this is what they have decided to bring forward in order to structure it in a way that pleases them. Whether or not this is a good deal for Broward is yet to be seen.

I don't think this has anything to do with his current financial situation, it has more to do with solving the problem of the team bleeding money year after year after year. Sustainability is what Viola is after here.
then he shouldn't be trying to put lipstick on a pig. build a winner. the area will support a winning hockey team. it's been proven.

you can't win every year. i was in boston in the late 90s when they were awful for a long stretch and the garden was quite empty most nights (especially when FL was visiting). same thing has happened in almost every market. if you build up your fan base, you can eek through the lean years with the knowledge that the fans will return.

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01-10-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i understand why counties/cities want to have pro sports teams. it ups their profile nationally (unlike a costco ), which may help draw more people to the area (among other reasons like helping businesses). it was only a matter of time until some owner figured out he could play on that and get public money and once it started happening, others figured out how to leverage that ("if you won't give me the money, someone else will and that's where i'll take my team").

i agree with you, though - it's a joke.



then he shouldn't be trying to put lipstick on a pig. build a winner. the area will support a winning hockey team. it's been proven.

you can't win every year. i was in boston in the late 90s when they were awful for a long stretch and the garden was quite empty most nights (especially when FL was visiting). same thing has happened in almost every market. if you build up your fan base, you can eek through the lean years with the knowledge that the fans will return.
Why is it so hard for owners, in South Florida, to understand that. That is like Ownership 101. Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come." Build a winner on the ice, and people will show up. Will we get 19,250 for a Tuesday game against Nashville, probably not, but we will get more than we are getting now. Ive brought it up so many times already, but Ill say it again...you have one of the top franchises in all of sports 30 minutes south of you, why not try to model yourselves after them? I understand its different when you have the best player in the game on your team, but even before the Heat got LBJ, they were still a 1st class organization. Class, quality, family...that should be what the Panthers focus on.

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01-10-2014, 02:45 PM
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PB, by the tourism tax is additional revenue that can be used for other projects around the county. I live in Miami-Dade (home of awful Marlins Deal), and I can tell you first hand that the additional tax revenue being funneled to the team and not to other improvement projects around the county will harm the county in the long run.

There is no bank account labeled "Broward County Tourism Tax Reserves". Who is to tell whether the funds actually comes from that tax or not?

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01-10-2014, 03:22 PM
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Heh, this was in business section (not Panther thread), not trying to go to politics:
Why is affordable health care considered socialism but tax supported sports arenas aren't?

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01-10-2014, 04:18 PM
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So, goings on at the arena make money, but the team itself loses it, supposedly. Seems they're making those two separate while asking for the casino deal because it's losing money. Or am I seeing that wrong?

In any case, yorkman seems to be more worried about the casino than he is the Panthers. Don't realky think he or viola care about the team, it just got them the arena and land.

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01-10-2014, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jol View Post
Heh, this was in business section (not Panther thread), not trying to go to politics:
Why is affordable health care considered socialism but tax supported sports arenas aren't?

JOL
the folks who consider the ACA (or universal healthcare) socialism are in the minority but i get your point/irony. i guess it's the american way - everyone's happy to chip in to help some some d-bag turn more of a profit.

this just in - the panthers are being propped up by the nanny state!

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01-10-2014, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
So, goings on at the arena make money, but the team itself loses it, supposedly. Seems they're making those two separate while asking for the casino deal because it's losing money. Or am I seeing that wrong?

In any case, yorkman seems to be more worried about the casino than he is the Panthers. Don't realky think he or viola care about the team, it just got them the arena and land.
You may not be wrong dude, time will tell. Kinda seems like it could be true, unfortunately.

I would love to give a fellow Rangers fan the benefit of the doubt, but one thing I've never asked is- is he a hockey nerd Rangers fan? Or one that like either just follows NY sports for gambling or just casual reasons? If the latter, you're spot on.

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01-10-2014, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jol View Post
Heh, this was in business section (not Panther thread), not trying to go to politics:
Why is affordable health care considered socialism but tax supported sports arenas aren't?

JOL
Because it's not socialism, it's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

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01-10-2014, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Granted, I'm not down there and thus can't attend games, don't buy merchandise, but I'm still a die-hard fan of this team and have been for going on 18 years now.

Yet I can not reconcile the notion at all of public money going to relieve normal costs of doing business of a private interest. The profits don't go to Broward County, so the expenses shouldn't. Even if you argue that the County receives a benefit from other businesses being solicited due to Panthers games, it's unlikely to be enough to offset the huge amount of money the public has invested in the arena, much less an additional $70M in expenses. And it's also a phony justification, as there are other businesses not getting benefits from the County that ALSO lead to residual business. Big box retail centers like Wal-Mart & Sam's Club, Costco, Best Buy, etc. tend to draw a lot of customers who also then solicit businesses like restaurants, services, and smaller specialty retailers that are in the same area. None of those retailers ever asks the local government to pick up some of their costs. I've never understood how sports teams get away with it.
I don't want the County to do this. If it decides a NHL team is in the Public Interest, fine, let them buy the team outright and run it themselves. (Hell, they can't do any worse than previous Panther Owners.) But let's stop giving handouts to rich people so they can either make money or waste Public money on their hobbies!

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01-10-2014, 10:14 PM
  #24
Kellyr
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Winnipeg also received public cash:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...239547671.html

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01-11-2014, 06:43 AM
  #25
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This is just a business move by a smart business Owner who wants to improve his casino prospects and shift expenses onto the County. Viola has made an offer and has invited a counter-offer from Broward County. I expect that,after much negotiation, Viola will improve his casino prospects, obtain some decrease in payments and enter into a lease extension

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