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The Habs Cup Contention Window Can Begin This Year

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Old
01-12-2014, 03:21 PM
  #26
sharks9
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I agree with some points you've made, but I don't think we're at the Pittsburgh/Boston stage where we can afford to trade our 1st at the deadline for a guy like Jagr/Iginla.

If we're going to give up or first or top prospects, it needs to be for someone that can help us for years to come like Evander Kane.

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01-12-2014, 03:23 PM
  #27
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Whether we are or not.....making that kind of thread now, makes just as more sense as making a thread after the Carolina game. Of course, we are a contender....we just beat the Hawks. Of course we need to tank...we just lost against Carolina. An assessment of where the team is now should never be done after such a high or after such a big low.

Yes, the East is awfully weak. Yet, if you have to base yourself on the regular season to determine how this complete and new season called the playoffs will look like...you should do it entirely.

We will make the playoffs, thanks to, like you said, a weak conference. We are not going to miss the playoffs. And we are not even going to fall as low as a wild card. We are either winning the conference or finishing 2nd or 3 in the division. I think we can already say that we are playing either Boston, TBay or Detroit. We will never catch up the Pens. Which means that the 2dn division winner, us, get the 2nd fewest points in the wild card. Fair to say that the Wings should be that team. They should finish higher than everybody else even if it's incredibly tight. But true that if we finish 1st, it's still really open. But if we don't, if the Bruins or TBay finish first, we will SURELY play against the other team. Bruins finish first, we play TBay. And the opposite. So how did we fare against them so far? Pretty good...1 win 1 loss against TBay, 1 win against Boston. Yet what it tells us is that it's too soon to tell. And it frankly can go either way. But if we want to be sure....we need to upgrade this team 'cause in the end...are we going for a conference finals or the Cup? Are you ready to give up on Tinordi, De La Rose, Fucale or whatever to try to go far? My bet is that nothing is sure, yes, we could try to benefit from a weak conference, thing is I hear weak conference and still undertand that most of the weak teams won't make the playoffs. We'd still have to face Pens, Bruins, TBay, and Wings. We are in a weak conference and yet....we are still 4th. we are in there though. So far.

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Old
01-12-2014, 03:24 PM
  #28
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Supporting cast is too weak for the playoffs

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01-12-2014, 03:28 PM
  #29
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The Habs Cup Contention Window Can Begin This Year
Uhm... Excuse me?

I think not.

Still about 2-3 years before I would think the habs would even start to be cup contenders in my opinion.

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01-12-2014, 03:36 PM
  #30
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very easy to say but other than stop gaps what was availble?

as for trades it takes two to tango, and if your partner is asking for the moon it makes it hard to danse
Actually, the easy thing to say is that we couldn't have done anything better.

Briere was signed before the market even opened and locked up 4M of our limited free space. So no, you're not going to win an argument that we couldn't get anybody else.

And what we got aren't stop gaps, they are very bad stop gaps. You could have kept a spot open for youngsters if there's no good options out there. You could add a more grinder type if you don't think your kids are ready enough to play here and need a roster player. You wait until someone becomes available via trade or the next year as a free agent.
There was no urgency to sign Briere or Murray. We'd be exactly where we are today with them playing for other teams. They're useless.

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01-12-2014, 03:38 PM
  #31
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If the Habs get 7-10 wins in the playoffs this year I would agree they are collectively entering a window of opportunity, and management can start managing accordingly. However coming off a 1 win playoff debacle this team has shown it's got a ways to go on the talent/goaltending/luck front.

And if for some reason Price continues this year on his 7-19 playoff trendline then there may not be any window.

In summary management needs more evidence that this isn't just another decent regular season team.

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01-12-2014, 03:43 PM
  #32
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If Price keeps playing the way he is, we can upset anyone. We just need a great PP and that's a recipe that can win you the cup.
The way games are called, I don't know how a good PP helps that much.

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01-12-2014, 03:56 PM
  #33
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Actually, the easy thing to say is that we couldn't have done anything better.

Briere was signed before the market even opened and locked up 4M of our limited free space. So no, you're not going to win an argument that we couldn't get anybody else.

And what we got aren't stop gaps, they are very bad stop gaps. You could have kept a spot open for youngsters if there's no good options out there. You could add a more grinder type if you don't think your kids are ready enough to play here and need a roster player. You wait until someone becomes available via trade or the next year as a free agent.
There was no urgency to sign Briere or Murray. We'd be exactly where we are today with them playing for other teams. They're useless.
You are correct
but it doesn't change the fact that two of the other big names were clarkson and lecavalier. One i dont want the other didnt want to come here. As for Jagr he signed a 1 yr deal. Murray was at the time what everyone was clamoring for - a d-man that could rattle some teeth.(and we signed him)

We are not near a window so anything more than a 2 yr stop-gap move would have been a mistake.

If you look at it from that point of view we have 2 of the 3 young dmen ready to make the jump with Murray and boullion coming off of the books.
Unfortunately, there is nothing on the farm that can make the jump long term this year or next other than tarnasky and i dont think thats what we're looking for.(top six seems to be the consensus)
By no means am i trying to defend MB here, but lets call a spade a spade and not paint with broad brush strokes

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01-12-2014, 03:57 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Whether we are or not.....making that kind of thread now, makes just as more sense as making a thread after the Carolina game. Of course, we are a contender....we just beat the Hawks. Of course we need to tank...we just lost against Carolina. An assessment of where the team is now should never be done after such a high or after such a big low.

Yes, the East is awfully weak. Yet, if you have to base yourself on the regular season to determine how this complete and new season called the playoffs will look like...you should do it entirely.

We will make the playoffs, thanks to, like you said, a weak conference. We are not going to miss the playoffs. And we are not even going to fall as low as a wild card. We are either winning the conference or finishing 2nd or 3 in the division. I think we can already say that we are playing either Boston, TBay or Detroit. We will never catch up the Pens. Which means that the 2dn division winner, us, get the 2nd fewest points in the wild card. Fair to say that the Wings should be that team. They should finish higher than everybody else even if it's incredibly tight. But true that if we finish 1st, it's still really open. But if we don't, if the Bruins or TBay finish first, we will SURELY play against the other team. Bruins finish first, we play TBay. And the opposite. So how did we fare against them so far? Pretty good...1 win 1 loss against TBay, 1 win against Boston. Yet what it tells us is that it's too soon to tell. And it frankly can go either way. But if we want to be sure....we need to upgrade this team 'cause in the end...are we going for a conference finals or the Cup? Are you ready to give up on Tinordi, De La Rose, Fucale or whatever to try to go far? My bet is that nothing is sure, yes, we could try to benefit from a weak conference, thing is I hear weak conference and still undertand that most of the weak teams won't make the playoffs. We'd still have to face Pens, Bruins, TBay, and Wings. We are in a weak conference and yet....we are still 4th. we are in there though. So far.
I didn't make this thread because the Blackhawks game. I've been making a lot of these arguments for a while.

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Old
01-12-2014, 04:06 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
You are correct
but it doesn't change the fact that two of the other big names were clarkson and lecavalier. One i dont want the other didnt want to come here. As for Jagr he signed a 1 yr deal. Murray was at the time what everyone was clamoring for - a d-man that could rattle some teeth.(and we signed him)

We are not near a window so anything more than a 2 yr stop-gap move would have been a mistake.

If you look at it from that point of view we have 2 of the 3 young dmen ready to make the jump with Murray and boullion coming off of the books.
Unfortunately, there is nothing on the farm that can make the jump long term this year or next other than tarnasky and i dont think thats what we're looking for.(top six seems to be the consensus)
By no means am i trying to defend MB here, but lets call a spade a spade and not paint with broad brush strokes
I don't think we "need" a major impact player, and they're not available right now. What we have is to make better use of our current players. Think of the impact James Wisniewski had three years ago, and the cost it took to get him: a second round draft pick.

However ... Impact players are rare on the UFA market, and opportunities to sign them, even rarer. Alexander Semin was available two years ago but Bergevin showed "no interest". Michael Ryder and Jaromir Jagr were available this summer, and they would be the top point producers on our team. As pointed out by MathMan, Tom Gilbert was available this summer, a 6'3 dman currently making $900,000.

This is my wish list for the deadline:

1) Someone to replace Ryan White, try Louis Leblanc for five games and if that doesn't work, get a Halpern-type player by dangling a 4th round draft pick.
2) A third pairing dman. We can try Pateryn or Beaulieu first.
3) If possible get a 2nd line winger: Semin, Ryder, Jagr, etc.

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Old
01-12-2014, 05:26 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't think we "need" a major impact player, and they're not available right now. What we have is to make better use of our current players. Think of the impact James Wisniewski had three years ago, and the cost it took to get him: a second round draft pick.

However ... Impact players are rare on the UFA market, and opportunities to sign them, even rarer. Alexander Semin was available two years ago but Bergevin showed "no interest". Michael Ryder and Jaromir Jagr were available this summer, and they would be the top point producers on our team. As pointed out by MathMan, Tom Gilbert was available this summer, a 6'3 dman currently making $900,000.
They call them "Impact players" for a reason. We could have really used a Bobby Ryan or even a Clark MacArthur, but I agree the trade demands/UFA money was unrealistic. Settling for 2nd tier players is fine, but they're rarely enough to turn a good team into a contender.

What Bergevin got was neither "Impact" nor "2nd-tier", it was 'marketing'. I continue to shake my head at the choice of Briere over the other guys who were out there. It's scary that Bergevin could've been so totally wrong. Jagr and Plekanec would have been an instant point-producer, Ryder would've at least solidified the scoring. I don't know if the difference would've been huge, but either player would have improved the offense more than what we got instead. Murray at least filled a genuine need and came cheap.

For those who believe the UFA pickings were slim, then why pick anyone at all? What was the strategic thinking behind throwing four-frikkin-million at a redundant, aging, declining, small forward???

This was the low-point for Bergevin and I really REALLY hope he recognizes his mistake.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
This is my wish list for the deadline:

1) Someone to replace Ryan White, try Louis Leblanc for five games and if that doesn't work, get a Halpern-type player by dangling a 4th round draft pick.
2) A third pairing dman. We can try Pateryn or Beaulieu first.
3) If possible get a 2nd line winger: Semin, Ryder, Jagr, etc.
Why replace White? He's still a young guy who appears to be improving and learning each season. His faceoff skill is pretty good and he's got a solid two-way game for a 4th line player. He's even eliminated those bonehead plays. I like him. In fact, one of the things that I've liked about this year's Habs is its 4th line, with Moen and White playing really well in both ends.

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Old
01-12-2014, 05:46 PM
  #37
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No, no it doesn't.

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Old
01-12-2014, 06:19 PM
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They call them "Impact players" for a reason. We could have really used a Bobby Ryan or even a Clark MacArthur, but I agree the trade demands/UFA money was unrealistic. Settling for 2nd tier players is fine, but they're rarely enough to turn a good team into a contender.

What Bergevin got was neither "Impact" nor "2nd-tier", it was 'marketing'. I continue to shake my head at the choice of Briere over the other guys who were out there. It's scary that Bergevin could've been so totally wrong. Jagr and Plekanec would have been an instant point-producer, Ryder would've at least solidified the scoring. I don't know if the difference would've been huge, but either player would have improved the offense more than what we got instead. Murray at least filled a genuine need and came cheap.

For those who believe the UFA pickings were slim, then why pick anyone at all? What was the strategic thinking behind throwing four-frikkin-million at a redundant, aging, declining, small forward???

This was the low-point for Bergevin and I really REALLY hope he recognizes his mistake.
My argument assumes that Bergevin can find it in him to be a good GM. Obviously if he is an awful GM and continues to fail on both the trade and free agent market we will not win anything as long as he is GM.

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Why replace White? He's still a young guy who appears to be improving and learning each season. His faceoff skill is pretty good and he's got a solid two-way game for a 4th line player. He's even eliminated those bonehead plays. I like him. In fact, one of the things that I've liked about this year's Habs is its 4th line, with Moen and White playing really well in both ends.
Ryan White has a faceoff percentage of 49.6% this year. He has 2 points in 33 games and is -6. He's a weak link, and we could probably get an upgrade for cheap.

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Old
01-12-2014, 06:21 PM
  #39
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I think it would be foolish to trade assets to win now. I think 2 years is a much more realistic number.

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01-12-2014, 06:33 PM
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2-3 pieces away.

But Im sure a lot of teams could say the same.

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01-12-2014, 06:36 PM
  #41
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I think it would be foolish to trade assets to win now. I think 2 years is a much more realistic number.
yeah I like our prospects and core, don't really want to mess with it.

Like someone said on here awhile ago, it's all about match ups. If we can get the right match ups, we can make a decent run. But there are a lot of teams that can straight embarass us.

If Emelin is truly back then that can go along way. Him playing his best gives us a very very good top 4. Everyone needs to be at their best as well which is an occasion that seems to come and go.

We could go to the final. Like DA said the East is pretty weak and if we get the matchups we can beat quite a few teams. Everything would have to go right.

I'm expecting more in the next few years. Once Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Bournival mature; hopefully Beaulieu and Tinordi pan out. Then add the mass influx of very solid prospects in the next couple years and I think we'll have the pieces to REALLY contend.

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01-12-2014, 06:39 PM
  #42
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My argument assumes that Bergevin can find it in him to be a good GM. Obviously if he is an awful GM and continues to fail on both the trade and free agent market we will not win anything as long as he is GM.


Ryan White has a faceoff percentage of 49.6% this year. He has 2 points in 33 games and is -6. He's a weak link, and we could probably get an upgrade for cheap.
would be cursious to know what are his BAD trades ?

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01-12-2014, 06:41 PM
  #43
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would be cursious to know what are his BAD trades ?
What are his good trades ?

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01-12-2014, 06:43 PM
  #44
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Sorry, we are not that close. The key is with the prospects. If we have hit a goldmine, then it will take at least 2-3 years to compete seriously.

As of now, there are simply too many unknowns and raw talents to make that assertion.

As it stands today, the team is slightly above average at best, and I dont prescribe to the theory of going for it since the conference is crappy. I want to have a longer term vision that is more sustainable. We can't expect the conference to be chronically bad.

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01-12-2014, 06:43 PM
  #45
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What are his good trades ?
let's see, since I didnt make a claim either way, what awnser you're expecting ?

my bet : good trades, none. bad trades, a ton...


right ?

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01-12-2014, 06:46 PM
  #46
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let's see, since I didnt make a claim either way, what awnser you're expecting ?

my bet : good trades, none. bad trades, a ton...


right ?
Not really, but sometimes not moving isn't always the right move. At the end of the day, I don't think he made our team better, with all his moves. Aside from Prust, he didnt really bring anyone in. That is PG's team. Yep, the one we all hate.

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01-12-2014, 06:49 PM
  #47
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let's see, since I didnt make a claim either way, what awnser you're expecting ?

my bet : good trades, none. bad trades, a ton...


right ?
I said he's failing on the trade market, as in he's not making good trades. A team needs to make trades over time to address internal balances that inevitably build up. If a GM never makes good trades, then he's probably failing.

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01-12-2014, 06:58 PM
  #48
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Not really, but sometimes not moving isn't always the right move. At the end of the day, I don't think he made our team better, with all his moves. Aside from Prust, he didnt really bring anyone in. That is PG's team. Yep, the one we all hate.
well, I dont want to go into technicalities or anything, but not moving isnt a move you know...

Prust was not traded for.


and on a side not, considering that about 80% of our roster comes from his predecessor/successor, care to explain how it's Gauthier's team ?


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01-12-2014, 07:02 PM
  #49
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A coaching change might do wonders also. See LA three years ago.
Only chance.

Regardless of how large the Habs window is, Therrien's coaching style will keep it closed.

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01-12-2014, 07:03 PM
  #50
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Habs need another 2/3 slot Dman + a top 6 RW to even think about getting out of East - and that's not even surviving a 7 games series vs one of Stl,Chi,Ana,Stl or SJ
Could Markov fetch us that?

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