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Time To Right a Fundamental Issue That Has Been Present Since Nov.19 2011

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Old
01-17-2014, 11:22 AM
  #176
Teezax
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I think if we fix this D a lot of our problems would be gone.

Streit is too old
Coburn has no offensive game
Timonen is done
Grossman is good for shot blocking and not much else.
Meszaros has offensive upside at the cost of just being a hazard in the defensive zone
Schenn has no offensive game
Gus gets limited opportunity for us to even forge an opinion

Too many pylons who are mistake prone.
Do I have a solution? Nope

I would advise for once that we stay patient however and build through draft like any smart team does and stop looking for easy fixes. We ain't winning the cup anytime soon, so why set ourselves back any more. Just start drafting some god damn good defenseman for once!
Hopefully last years picks will pan out for us, god knows we'll need 'em.

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01-17-2014, 03:28 PM
  #177
Unstable
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It's now 2014. We need to acknowledge that Pronger was going to decline. The plan was to have won the Cup with him by now. I'm not saying that we couldn't use an unconcussed 2014 Pronger. But unconcussed 2014 Pronger is probably not a dominant a player as unconcussed 2011 Pronger.

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01-17-2014, 04:32 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
It's now 2014. We need to acknowledge that Pronger was going to decline. The plan was to have won the Cup with him by now. I'm not saying that we couldn't use an unconcussed 2014 Pronger. But unconcussed 2014 Pronger is probably not a dominant a player as unconcussed 2011 Pronger.
I disagree, pronger played the type of calm, positionally brilliant game that would have let him play at a high level into his early 40s a la Lidstrom. Obviously he wouldn't be quite as good as in his younger years, but he still would be a top defensan in the league.

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01-17-2014, 04:39 PM
  #179
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I don't know what type of player Pronger would be now but he was getting some tear/mileage on him before the incident. I don't think he would have been a top defender in this league now but I do think he would have still been a quality defensemen at this point.

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01-17-2014, 09:44 PM
  #180
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Should the flyers use Laughton as trade bait? I don't know much about him but I just don't see where he fits in the line up unless other players get traded. I know quite a few of you guys have talked to death about potentially trying to acquire a guy like Gormley. Any idea if that could potentially solve some of the flyers problems and if so at what cost?

I'm not much for trading away a lot of picks but it seems like the development of the flyers defensemen will be when quite a few players might have peaked out.

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01-17-2014, 10:37 PM
  #181
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I think Pronger would've easily been a 5 million dollar defenseman under the new cap at this point in his career if he were healthy (that's what hi cap hit was, right?). His point production was still really good before he got hurt, and his puck skills still looked great. I don't think he'd have been able to log 28 a night and still last through to a play off run with out wearing down anymore, so he'd only be giving you HOF level play on defene for 21-22 minutes a night... I think we could live with that.

Sort of not worth talking about though .

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01-17-2014, 10:48 PM
  #182
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Biggest problem in the past four years? Ridiculous roster turnover.

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01-17-2014, 10:55 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teezax View Post
I think if we fix this D a lot of our problems would be gone.

Streit is too old
Coburn has no offensive game
Timonen is done
Grossman is good for shot blocking and not much else.
Meszaros has offensive upside at the cost of just being a hazard in the defensive zone
Schenn has no offensive game
Gus gets limited opportunity for us to even forge an opinion

Too many pylons who are mistake prone.
Do I have a solution? Nope

I would advise for once that we stay patient however and build through draft like any smart team does and stop looking for easy fixes. We ain't winning the cup anytime soon, so why set ourselves back any more. Just start drafting some god damn good defenseman for once! Hopefully last years picks will pan out for us, god knows we'll need 'em.
This organization doesn't seem willing to tolerate young defensemen's growing pains. Right now, we have a guy with the talent to potentially be a servicable #3 with a couple more years of solid NHL time (Gus) that can't ever get comfortable here and learn how to play his game at the NHL level on the third pairing. Until they're willing to just give young d-men minutes they going to have to keep acquiring guys via trade or free agency that other teams have already gone through those growing pains with, which means they're either expensive in assets or salary. My point being that, even though I don't agree completely with your chracterization of the current defense corp., I do agree that drafting young defensive talent should be a priority. However that's only a good move if it's part of a larger change in their organization's treatment of young defensemen as a whole.

Bartulis probably could've been a serviceable third pairing guy. Definitely had more footspeed and finesse to play Laviolette's system than Lilja, in addition to upside. But for some reason they didn't wanna stick with him and give him third pairing time. Marshall and Bourdon both stepped it up and played great when given a shot at the NHL. Marshall's traded and they signed Hal Gill, making one less spot for Bourdon to fight for at camp, who was apparently healthy and ready to go. Brandon Manning played well when he was up. Lauridsen was a a giant that couldn't skate they took in the 7th, and he played well while he was up. I think they can scout/draft defensemen pretty well, they just don't seem willing to tolerate the stage of development where they're on an NHL roster and getting up to speed. Perhaps they'd be more tolerant if they saw first pairing upside in a guy, which none of my examples have. Still it feels unwise to spend what we do on defense when we have servicable bottom pairing d-men in the AHL. It feels similarly unwise to spend high picks on real talent if they don't start giving them real opportunity.

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01-17-2014, 11:41 PM
  #184
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Prior to the injury Pronger was still elite due to his reach and positional play as well as his heavy yet accurate point shot, but at the same time it was clear he had lost or was losing a step. He got beat on the outside with alarming frequency at times because he had very little foot speed while he was here. Or at least that's how I remember it.

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Old
01-17-2014, 11:59 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
This organization doesn't seem willing to tolerate young defensemen's growing pains. Right now, we have a guy with the talent to potentially be a servicable #3 with a couple more years of solid NHL time (Gus) that can't ever get comfortable here and learn how to play his game at the NHL level on the third pairing. Until they're willing to just give young d-men minutes they going to have to keep acquiring guys via trade or free agency that other teams have already gone through those growing pains with, which means they're either expensive in assets or salary. My point being that, even though I don't agree completely with your chracterization of the current defense corp., I do agree that drafting young defensive talent should be a priority. However that's only a good move if it's part of a larger change in their organization's treatment of young defensemen as a whole.

Bartulis probably could've been a serviceable third pairing guy. Definitely had more footspeed and finesse to play Laviolette's system than Lilja, in addition to upside. But for some reason they didn't wanna stick with him and give him third pairing time. Marshall and Bourdon both stepped it up and played great when given a shot at the NHL. Marshall's traded and they signed Hal Gill, making one less spot for Bourdon to fight for at camp, who was apparently healthy and ready to go. Brandon Manning played well when he was up. Lauridsen was a a giant that couldn't skate they took in the 7th, and he played well while he was up. I think they can scout/draft defensemen pretty well, they just don't seem willing to tolerate the stage of development where they're on an NHL roster and getting up to speed. Perhaps they'd be more tolerant if they saw first pairing upside in a guy, which none of my examples have. Still it feels unwise to spend what we do on defense when we have servicable bottom pairing d-men in the AHL. It feels similarly unwise to spend high picks on real talent if they don't start giving them real opportunity.
Yep.


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01-18-2014, 12:31 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
This organization doesn't seem willing to tolerate young defensemen's growing pains. Right now, we have a guy with the talent to potentially be a servicable #3 with a couple more years of solid NHL time (Gus) that can't ever get comfortable here and learn how to play his game at the NHL level on the third pairing. Until they're willing to just give young d-men minutes they going to have to keep acquiring guys via trade or free agency that other teams have already gone through those growing pains with, which means they're either expensive in assets or salary. My point being that, even though I don't agree completely with your chracterization of the current defense corp., I do agree that drafting young defensive talent should be a priority. However that's only a good move if it's part of a larger change in their organization's treatment of young defensemen as a whole.

Bartulis probably could've been a serviceable third pairing guy. Definitely had more footspeed and finesse to play Laviolette's system than Lilja, in addition to upside. But for some reason they didn't wanna stick with him and give him third pairing time. Marshall and Bourdon both stepped it up and played great when given a shot at the NHL. Marshall's traded and they signed Hal Gill, making one less spot for Bourdon to fight for at camp, who was apparently healthy and ready to go. Brandon Manning played well when he was up. Lauridsen was a a giant that couldn't skate they took in the 7th, and he played well while he was up. I think they can scout/draft defensemen pretty well, they just don't seem willing to tolerate the stage of development where they're on an NHL roster and getting up to speed. Perhaps they'd be more tolerant if they saw first pairing upside in a guy, which none of my examples have. Still it feels unwise to spend what we do on defense when we have servicable bottom pairing d-men in the AHL. It feels similarly unwise to spend high picks on real talent if they don't start giving them real opportunity.
as the word goes around here.

THIS

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01-18-2014, 12:58 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
It's now 2014. We need to acknowledge that Pronger was going to decline. The plan was to have won the Cup with him by now. I'm not saying that we couldn't use an unconcussed 2014 Pronger. But unconcussed 2014 Pronger is probably not a dominant a player as unconcussed 2011 Pronger.
I agree with this completely.


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01-18-2014, 01:10 AM
  #188
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My overall view is the grass is always greener and people associate having Pronger with being a contender (or a true no. 1 Dman) and that is not necessarily the case. Flyers were lucky that year to get in and a quick look at the standings has teams with more goals for and true no. 1s (OTT and PHX) out of the playoffs.

Do the Flyers need a true No. 1?, yes, but I would not gut the team to acquire one. The Flyers were still in big trouble during the finals any time the third pairing was out against Chicago, so teams still need competent D throughout their lineup. I would agree that most of the D are too one-dimensional though.

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01-18-2014, 01:14 AM
  #189
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A big part of the reason that 3rd pairing was brutal was the goaltending. There was zero chance of Leighton helping them out and that just made the situation so much worse.

So besides the solid D platoon, we also need to see if Mason truly is the guy.

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01-18-2014, 03:13 AM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
A big part of the reason that 3rd pairing was brutal was the goaltending. There was zero chance of Leighton helping them out and that just made the situation so much worse.

So besides the solid D platoon, we also need to see if Mason truly is the guy.
Amen. I actually think that Krajicek and Parent got a lot of heat and some of it wasn't fairly deserved. It's hard to look good when it's not enough to limit the other team to stoppable shots, you have to stop them from shooting at all, sice nyour goalies are entirely unreliable. This leads to guys not playing within themselves and reaching to make plays that are outide of their ability, which is never good. Those two were asked to do too much on account of having no real help in net. Then when they failed like they were supposed to, they had the misfortune of having that performance compared to the top four's. A rough go all the way around for those two.

Also, that Shining gif is creepy as all hell.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 01-18-2014 at 06:05 AM.
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01-18-2014, 06:03 AM
  #191
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One of the major problems I think is not something that's been a fundamental issue since Nov. 19 2011.

It's been a significant issue since July 21, 2005. That was the date the 2004-2005 lockout ended and the new CBA was ratified with a salary cap. I do not believe the Flyers effectively manage their team payroll in a salary cap world and I think that continues to get worse year by year.

Part of the problem is organizational philosophy. The Flyers pay too much money to unimportant roleplayers who can be found year-in and year-out for the NHL minimum to fill out your roster. They reward players with skillsets not worth the salaries they receive because those players represent the type of "style of play" that they deem "Flyers hockey"

I don't believe Shea Weber on the Flyers would make them a Stanley Cup Contender. They'd be a better team, but they'd still have a lot of flaws in their other defensive pairings and on their lines. I also don't fault Homer at all for the Weber situation. Giving up a lot of youth/assets in a trade for a player who was a RFA seemed hard to swallow and at the time nobody knew this next CBA would put in all these new limitations on being able to make poison pill type contracts to RFA's. Effectively making it even more unlikely that an RFA will sign an offer sheet their team can not match.

Sometimes the Flyers spend money like they think there isn't a cap and then find themselves right up against it. You can't overpay players who don't deserve it in a cap system. Every wasted million here or there adds up. If the salary cap had never been introduced to the NHL I can't say I'm 100% sure the Flyers would have won a Stanley Cup (or two) in the past 9 years, but I'm like 95% sure they would have.

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01-18-2014, 06:31 AM
  #192
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No one is going to trade a number one defenseman short of a Lindros from Quebec return, so the only thing we can do is stockpile our picks and and develop our prospects. That takes time and patience

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01-18-2014, 06:43 AM
  #193
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Quote:
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I don't believe Shea Weber on the Flyers would make them a Stanley Cup Contender.
This team has a ton of problems when you compare it to the leagues elite, the Blackhawks, Blues, Ducks, ect, that one player wouldn't make that much of a difference. Those teams have an elite number 1 defenseman but they also have a great number two and depth thru the lineup.

Blackhawks : Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson
Blues: Piertangelo, Bouwmeester, Shattenkirk
Ducks: beauchemin, Lindholm, fowler
Kings: Doughty, Voynov

The flyers top defensemen, Coburn, would be 3rd or 4th best defenseman on these teams. And the team he would be 3rd on, the Kings and and even a team like the Bruins, have the best goalies in the world and play a team wide tight checking style, which the Flyers forwards seem unable to do on a consistent basis.

I am all for moving current NHL forwards for defense so as to expedient the process of getting back to being elite but not for one player. The flyers need multiple good defensemen to compete.

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01-18-2014, 06:45 AM
  #194
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Part of the problem is organizational philosophy. The Flyers pay too much money to unimportant roleplayers who can be found year-in and year-out for the NHL minimum to fill out your roster. They reward players with skillsets not worth the salaries they receive because those players represent the type of "style of play" that they deem "Flyers hockey"
I don't believe this.
There is not a single player on this year's team who fits that description. In the past I can think of Shelley and Carcillo, though the latter was just an overpayment in trade-assets, not in cap dollars.

I also don't like the term unimportant roleplayers. If the playoffs prove anything year after year, it is that roleplayers are very important. I'd like to know who you define as a roleplayer on this team, because Rinaldo, McGinn, Hall and Rosehill as well as Hall Gill did not cast anything of value and are not overpayed in terms of salary.

I think the problem is and will even more so be how we pay our star players. I still think Giroux will be overpayed, Timonen is clearly overpayed and we knew it the moment he signed the extension, Streit's contract is atrocious and while I like Grossmann $3.5m for a #5 defender is just not right. I already fear what we are going to do with Voracek in a couple of years.
On the flip side we have some contracts like Read's, Simmonds' and Coburn's which somewhat off-set the bad ones. Let's hope B.Schenn gets a good contract, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flybynite77 View Post
I don't believe Shea Weber on the Flyers would make them a Stanley Cup Contender. They'd be a better team, but they'd still have a lot of flaws in their other defensive pairings and on their lines.
The other pairings would have to play significantly less, though.
Weber can eat up almost 30min per game. That leaves 90min of ice time for the rest of the 5 defenders. Coburn can play 23min of those. Timonen 20, Grossmann 18, Schenn 18, Streit 18. Only thing missing would be a better puck mover (like Matt Carle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flybynite77 View Post
I also don't fault Homer at all for the Weber situation. Giving up a lot of youth/assets in a trade for a player who was a RFA seemed hard to swallow and at the time nobody knew this next CBA would put in all these new limitations on being able to make poison pill type contracts to RFA's. Effectively making it even more unlikely that an RFA will sign an offer sheet their team can not match.
I agree. I don't get however why someone would throw the RFA label around in this subject. Weber was sure to be signed if traded here. Him being an RFA had absolutely no impact on the situation, since he effectively wasn't one once he signed the OS.

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01-18-2014, 07:09 AM
  #195
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The two players I would try to acquire at the trade deadline and/or this offseason are Ehrhoff and Brian Campbell. I wonder if the panthers would be interested in a Campbell for Streit + trade. They would be saving 2 million for the next two years in which they really don't have a legit shot at contending.

I would also try to trade grossmann either in a trade for Ehrhoff or in another trade and then moving those assets and maybe more to buffalo.

If we could get those two players without giving up our top prospects or our first round picks, I would do it. I don't know if that would ever be possible but our defense could look like

Campbell-Coburn
Ehrhoff-Schenn
Gus-xxx

That last spot could be filled through free agency. We could also see if timonen would be interested in doing something like gill did. Come to camp on a tryout and the. Sign a deal after Pronger goes on LTIR for 3-4 million. Then we could have

Campbell-Coburn
Ehrhoff-Schenn
Timonen-FreeAgent
Gus

There are a lot of moving parts but maybe it could get done or maybe I am just lying to myself

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01-18-2014, 07:38 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
The two players I would try to acquire at the trade deadline and/or this offseason are Ehrhoff and Brian Campbell. I wonder if the panthers would be interested in a Campbell for Streit + trade. They would be saving 2 million for the next two years in which they really don't have a legit shot at contending.

I would also try to trade grossmann either in a trade for Ehrhoff or in another trade and then moving those assets and maybe more to buffalo.

If we could get those two players without giving up our top prospects or our first round picks, I would do it. I don't know if that would ever be possible but our defense could look like

Campbell-Coburn
Ehrhoff-Schenn
Gus-xxx

That last spot could be filled through free agency. We could also see if timonen would be interested in doing something like gill did. Come to camp on a tryout and the. Sign a deal after Pronger goes on LTIR for 3-4 million. Then we could have

Campbell-Coburn
Ehrhoff-Schenn
Timonen-FreeAgent
Gus

There are a lot of moving parts but maybe it could get done or maybe I am just lying to myself
Like both players but you are underestimating the return they would require. If you are unwilling to move a young roster player, it would definitely cost the 1st and top prospects. Neither team has a reason to move either player as they both will have issues hitting the cap floor.

If you can acquire one in trade, the Flyers could add a decent 2nd pair guy in ufa like Stralman.

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01-20-2014, 03:25 PM
  #197
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We'll find out what this team is made of after tomorrow's game.

Schedule is full of heavy hitters from Boston to LA.

Tough opponent on Thursday against Columbus.

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01-20-2014, 04:46 PM
  #198
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It definitely is time to start gauging interest in Grossmann, Meszaros, Streit, and Lecavalier. They may not have great value but maybe we can turn those 4 players into 1 or 2 decent defenseman or draft picks that we can then trade for a young offensively talented dman.

Lecavalier really needs to go. He has been awful outside of the first 10 games. He isn't fast, doesn't skate hard, can't pass, doesn't hold onto the puck when he gets it, and his shot doesn't seem to be as good as when he was in Tampa. We need to trade him just to drop his cap hit if any team will take him.

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01-20-2014, 06:45 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Teezax View Post
I think if we fix this D a lot of our problems would be gone.

Streit is too old
Coburn has no offensive game
Timonen is done
Grossman is good for shot blocking and not much else.
Meszaros has offensive upside at the cost of just being a hazard in the defensive zone
Schenn has no offensive game
Gus gets limited opportunity for us to even forge an opinion

Too many pylons who are mistake prone.
Do I have a solution? Nope

I would advise for once that we stay patient however and build through draft like any smart team does and stop looking for easy fixes. We ain't winning the cup anytime soon, so why set ourselves back any more. Just start drafting some god damn good defenseman for once! Hopefully last years picks will pan out for us, god knows we'll need 'em.
This x1000.

I'd also like to see Holmgren move redundant defensemen (most notably either Grossmann or Coburn). With the vets, we know what we have. They've been around long enough; they aren't getting better. Clear some space to see what we've got in the system already, and collect an asset or two along the way that may or may not be the answer.

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01-20-2014, 06:53 PM
  #200
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I don't believe this.
There is not a single player on this year's team who fits that description. In the past I can think of Shelley and Carcillo, though the latter was just an overpayment in trade-assets, not in cap dollars.

I also don't like the term unimportant roleplayers. If the playoffs prove anything year after year, it is that roleplayers are very important. I'd like to know who you define as a roleplayer on this team, because Rinaldo, McGinn, Hall and Rosehill as well as Hall Gill did not cast anything of value and are not overpayed in terms of salary.

I think the problem is and will even more so be how we pay our star players. I still think Giroux will be overpayed, Timonen is clearly overpayed and we knew it the moment he signed the extension, Streit's contract is atrocious and while I like Grossmann $3.5m for a #5 defender is just not right. I already fear what we are going to do with Voracek in a couple of years. On the flip side we have some contracts like Read's, Simmonds' and Coburn's which somewhat off-set the bad ones. Let's hope B.Schenn gets a good contract, too.
Eesh. I couldn't disagree with this more. How this team treats its star players, at least financially, is comparable to every other team in the league that's ever expressed a remote interest in retaining their go-to guys.

What this team does that's absolutely idiotic, and I'll maintain this until the day I die, they fail with patience, opting instead to collect some other team's cast-offs to fill voids rather than rebuild/retool internally. Surprise, Holmgren! There's a reason LeCavalier was bought out after all, that Streit went unsigned by the freaking Islanders, that Emery was replaced by a virtual unknown after a very "successful" season with the Blackhawks, etc.

Like pissing into the wind with this team.

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