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Edmonton - Tampa Bay (Blockbuster)

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Old
01-14-2014, 03:15 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
No one is arguing that Yakupov is worth more than Kucherov. We are arguing the difference being Vas. That is all.
As for the difference not being Vasilevski, you are right. Excellent prospect. But many in this thread are arguing Kucherov is equal or better than Yakupov. I just don't see it.

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01-14-2014, 03:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
As for the difference not being Vasilevski, you are right. Excellent prospect. But many in this thread are arguing Kucherov is equal or better than Yakupov. I just don't see it.
We're not arguing that hes "better", but that they're a lot more similar at this point than people realize, so why would we deal him and a blue chip goaltending prospect for him?

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01-14-2014, 03:23 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
Thats just it. No one has remotely explained why Kucherov has more talent, or potential. Draft position is just showing that all the major scouting services(you know, the ones who evaluate talent and potential for a living), have made an evaluation of both players, and obviously decided Yakupov had more of both.
Well I'll just throw this out there and by no means am I saying Kucherov would've been number 1 overall or have been drafted higher than Yakupov but

1) Different draft year
2) Kucherov was drafted out of the Russian junior league which I would argue hurt his ranking
3) Kucherov's draft year had 4 players to make it into the NHL after being drafted compared to Yakupov's draft year which only had 2, him and Galchenyuk.
4) Kucherov's draft year already consist of 2 calder winners
5) Yakupov was playing with the best forward in his year

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01-14-2014, 03:27 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jot View Post
Hate to jump into the conversation. People gave Anderson ALOT of credit. Calling him elite, top 5 etc... you should go through the off season polls with Anderson, pretty funny how people talked about him.
I would say that still helps my point. Now no one is giving him the same amount of credit because like I said, performing well for a short period of time is not the same as performing well for a full season.

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01-14-2014, 03:28 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
We're not arguing that hes "better", but that they're a lot more similar at this point than people realize, so why would we deal him and a blue chip goaltending prospect for him?
But they're not that similar. I see some very small sample sizes being quoted with regards to Kucherov's career numbers compared to Yakupov's. Quoting a 7 game tournament doesn't say much, or comparing a 107 game sample to a 33 game sample. I hate to fall back on draft pedigree, but its to show Yakupov's value in relation to a player like Kucherov. It just doesn't go away because of a sophomore slump. I can show many many examples of players that have went through a similar slump in their 2nd years, only to turn it around once they have had some more experience. That's why comparing rookie production is a closer comparison between the 2. And Yakupov was alot better. I haven't really argued this trade value at all, just the value of the 2.

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01-14-2014, 03:31 PM
  #81
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Horrible deal for Tampa, especially when EDM is offering Yakupov.

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01-14-2014, 03:33 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
But they're not that similar. I see some very small sample sizes being quoted with regards to Kucherov's career numbers compared to Yakupov's. Quoting a 7 game tournament doesn't say much, or comparing a 107 game sample to a 33 game sample. I hate to fall back on draft pedigree, but its to show Yakupov's value in relation to a player like Kucherov. It just doesn't go away because of a sophomore slump. I can show many many examples of players that have went through a similar slump in their 2nd years, only to turn it around once they have had some more experience. That's why comparing rookie production is a closer comparison between the 2. And Yakupov was alot better. I haven't really argued this trade value at all, just the value of the 2.
Don't call it a sophomore slump, it doesn't matter because a lot of players go through it. The bottom line is he is struggling currently period. I could easily make an argument that Yakupov produced in a shortened season where players had played much later than they are use to and with all that time off (some players, I know others just went to lesser leagues) and probably came back to the NHL less sharp than they usually are.

You can't ignore that fact that it was a lock out shortened season and that does affect players especially older ones.

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01-14-2014, 03:37 PM
  #83
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Tampa Fan says no. Kucherov and Vasi....No, I wouldn't even consider it.

I will give the edge to Yakupov on perhaps have the higher ceiling, and maybe even being slightly better now. Though the difference isn't really all that much.

Kucherov already is fairly solid on his own end of the ice, as well as a threat ever time he has the puck. I would say part of the reason he hasn't put up that many points is due to limited ice time and having line mates who aren't nearly as smart as him in Hockey IQ terms. I would love to see what he can do if he had a guy like Drouin on his line, or even MSL. Calling him a future 35 to 40 goal scorer isn't a stretch. Sorry to anyone who likes to claim his draft position as the reason he won't, I didn't know you needed to be a 1st overall pick to be labeled as a franchise player or even a future one. Which honestly he is. Sure Yakupov is in his own right, but that doesn't discredit Kucherov by any means.

The difference isn't Vasi, not by a long shot. To be honest I would be hesitant to pull the deal on a 1 for 1 trade simply because Kucherov already bought into the system, is willing to sacrifice himself for the teams success and wants to continue to better himself and openly admits it. In essence from everything I read about Kucherov and Yakupov, I believe Kucherov fits the Lightning Label a hell of a lot better than Yakupov.

That's not even really diving into the fact your want the arguably the best goalie not in the NHL as an add on....Have to say no to this, doing so fairly easy might I add.

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01-14-2014, 03:39 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
But they're not that similar. I see some very small sample sizes being quoted with regards to Kucherov's career numbers compared to Yakupov's. Quoting a 7 game tournament doesn't say much, or comparing a 107 game sample to a 33 game sample. I hate to fall back on draft pedigree, but its to show Yakupov's value in relation to a player like Kucherov. It just doesn't go away because of a sophomore slump. I can show many many examples of players that have went through a similar slump in their 2nd years, only to turn it around once they have had some more experience. That's why comparing rookie production is a closer comparison between the 2. And Yakupov was alot better. I haven't really argued this trade value at all, just the value of the 2.
I get what you're saying, but you're essentially asking us to ignore the sample size of Kucherov to judge him, and to use Yakupovs sample in its entirety, and that does a disservice to both players. You have:

-Talent level
-Past production
-Off ice ethics
-Future projections

When judging these players. Give what we know on Tampas side, the production by Yakupov is better at the NHL level, that is undeniable. Does he have more talent? Consensus seems to be yes. How much difference in talent? Hard to say. Numbers say they're not terribly far off, and again, before Kucherov slipped because of the "russian factor" he was looking at being a mid-first round pick. Past production also says they're fairly close, obviously the numbers dont take into account who faces what competition.
Quote:
Yak

09-10 MHL 6 points in 14 games
10-11 U18 13 Points in 7 games. -6
11-12 WJC 9 points in 7 games. No goals
12-13 WJC 8 points in 7 games.

Kucherov

09-10 MHL 54 points in 53 games
10-11 U18 21 Points in 7 games. 11 goals. plus 10
11-12 WJC 7 points in 7 games.
12-13 WJC 8 points in 7 games.
Future, Yak looks to be the better player purely from talent, but his off ice stuff and work ethic make me question things. What is that worth to Tampa, Hedman? Nope. Would we do a 1:1 swap between these forwards? I would, you wouldn't, rightfully so. Would we do it adding a goaltender? Nope.

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Old
01-14-2014, 03:40 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AimForTopCheddar View Post
Don't call it a sophomore slump, it doesn't matter because a lot of players go through it. The bottom line is he is struggling currently period. I could easily make an argument that Yakupov produced in a shortened season where players had played much later than they are use to and with all that time off (some players, I know others just went to lesser leagues) and probably came back to the NHL less sharp than they usually are.

You can't ignore that fact that it was a lock out shortened season and that does affect players especially older ones.
So Yakupov did much better in his rookie season because everyone else was tired or not used to the schedule? Good luck with that argument. I could just as easily say the Oilers exclusively played the much tougher Western conference only, instead of playing games against easier Eastern conference teams. i don't think either argument should really negate his results.

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01-14-2014, 03:43 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AimForTopCheddar View Post
Don't call it a sophomore slump, it doesn't matter because a lot of players go through it. The bottom line is he is struggling currently period. I could easily make an argument that Yakupov produced in a shortened season where players had played much later than they are use to and with all that time off (some players, I know others just went to lesser leagues) and probably came back to the NHL less sharp than they usually are.

You can't ignore that fact that it was a lock out shortened season and that does affect players especially older ones.
He had 11 goals in his last 14 games. He got majority of his points during that last month of play. NHL players surely then must have caught up with their conditioning by then.

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01-14-2014, 03:53 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
So Yakupov did much better in his rookie season because everyone else was tired or not used to the schedule? Good luck with that argument. I could just as easily say the Oilers exclusively played the much tougher Western conference only, instead of playing games against easier Eastern conference teams. i don't think either argument should really negate his results.
This is pure speculation, I'm just throwing out many different possibilities. We'll never know how well Kucherov could have done in that season.

Quote:
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He had 11 goals in his last 14 games. He got majority of his points during that last month of play. NHL players surely then must have caught up with their conditioning by then.
Fair enough.

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01-14-2014, 04:01 PM
  #88
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I would LOVE Kucherov on the Oil. He's my favorite young player who's not an Oiler. I would do this deal for either Eberle or Yak, but Yak is certainly not enough to get those two.

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01-14-2014, 04:04 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
No, but thats not the vacuum we're operating in, now is it?
Isn't it? (I note the OP was a leaf fan, so I assumed both sides are being asked to eval the deal)

The point of trade proposals is to debate whether the respective GMs would make this deal. You can't honestly tell any of us that MacT would even consider a 1for1 deal and that Yzerman, Brisbois & Verbeek wouldn't collectively spooge their pants at the opportunity?

So of course MacT would be expecting something else special along with Kucherov. Anyone can (should be able to) see that.

Is Vasilevski *too special* to make up the difference. It's a fair argument... as is mine which says of all prospects, goaltenders are the hardest to predict, especially when they haven't made the jump to the NHL yet, so I likely wouldn't make that deal on that basis due to the risk (multiplied b/c I am trading a 20 year old #1 pick).


Last edited by bucks_oil: 01-14-2014 at 04:34 PM. Reason: OP is a leaf fan
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01-14-2014, 04:06 PM
  #90
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Maybe the price you'd ask but his value is nowhere near Hedman's value.
Agree... no way we'd get Hedman for Yakupov at the moment. One has proven way more in the big show... the other has great potential, but ???. It would have to be a SIGNIFICANT add. Same reasoning can be applied to the OP.

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01-14-2014, 04:24 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by AimForTopCheddar View Post
1st overall pick doesn't mean much when you don't play like one. All you guys are talking is draft rankings.
Your fanbase of all fanbases know that the above statement is BS. If GM's were that impatient, Stamkos would have been in NYR and Lecavalier would have been in MTL.

Opposing GMs are always sniffing around at highly touted prospects when/if they hit their first struggles. Problem is 99/100 the GM holding that asset knows exactly its worth and rightfully hangs on.

Just a reminder:
Lecavalier in his first 82 games: 28pts (and -19) Prorates to 28 on 82 games
Stamkos in his first 79 games: 46pts (and -13) Prorates to 48 on 82 games
Yakupov in his first 48 games: 31pts (and -4) Prorates to 53 on 82 games
or if you prefer...
Yakupov in his first 93 games: 48pts (and -32) Prorates to 43 points on 82 games

None of those GMs were going to really dream of trading their 1st overall talent for anything but sure bets. They didn't get that and so they keep him around.

If you've watched Yak last year it was obvious he WAS PLAYING LIKE A 1st OVERALL. If you watch him this year its clear the lack of coaching continuity has taken its toll (and hit the media) he looks confused and frantic, but the effort is there.

Unless he turns it around (in which case he may get traded when his value recovers) I'd wager he outlasts Eakins. They won't be impatient with the kid.

EDIT: and just to add any statistician would tell you that an n-size of 48, prorated to 79 or 82 games has a lot more power (validity) than a 23gm n-size prorated to a 48gm, 82gm or 93gm comparison.


Last edited by bucks_oil: 01-14-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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01-14-2014, 04:33 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
I get what you're saying, but you're essentially asking us to ignore the sample size of Kucherov to judge him, and to use Yakupovs sample in its entirety, and that does a disservice to both players. You have:

-Talent level
-Past production
-Off ice ethics
-Future projections

When judging these players. Give what we know on Tampas side, the production by Yakupov is better at the NHL level, that is undeniable. Does he have more talent? Consensus seems to be yes. How much difference in talent? Hard to say. Numbers say they're not terribly far off, and again, before Kucherov slipped because of the "russian factor" he was looking at being a mid-first round pick. Past production also says they're fairly close, obviously the numbers dont take into account who faces what competition.


Future, Yak looks to be the better player purely from talent, but his off ice stuff and work ethic make me question things. What is that worth to Tampa, Hedman? Nope. Would we do a 1:1 swap between these forwards? I would, you wouldn't, rightfully so. Would we do it adding a goaltender? Nope.
Fair post

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01-14-2014, 04:41 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
Right. I bow down to Kucherov's mighty 9 points. You are over valuing a player based on a 23 game sample. Let him play a full season first at least. Yakupov may not be lighting the league on fire, but he was picked 1st overall for a reason. He will figure it out. His production is right on par with just about every 1st overall pick. His defensive game can be fixed. This isn't even taking into account Edm's needs, which certainly aren't for yet another undersized( and getting completely overrated) winger.
Kucherov will have a better career than Yakupov. Save this post.

He is a better overall player, has a better shot and much better hockey IQ.

Yakupov plays with top 6 players, when he's not being benched, Kucherov plays with another rookie and a 4th line center.

No way in hell would I trade Kucherov for Yakupov straight up and you think you can get arguably the best goaltending prospect in the world on top? Yeah good luck.

EDIT: Let me add that the reason I see Kucherov as the better overall player is his defensive abilities which have been a nice surprise since his call up. Offensively the two players are very close.


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01-14-2014, 04:45 PM
  #94
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Kucherov is providing what Yakupov would and Vasilevski is looking like the holy grail of goalie prospects.

We don't need another forward(unless they're named Lucic).

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01-14-2014, 04:46 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
Right. I bow down to Kucherov's mighty 9 points. You are over valuing a player based on a 23 game sample. Let him play a full season first at least. Yakupov may not be lighting the league on fire, but he was picked 1st overall for a reason. He will figure it out. His production is right on par with just about every 1st overall pick. His defensive game can be fixed. This isn't even taking into account Edm's needs, which certainly aren't for yet another undersized( and getting completely overrated) winger.
You have not seen Kucherov play...

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01-14-2014, 04:51 PM
  #96
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Value is fair, but I don't blame Tampa fans for wanting their 2 over Yak given how their team is built

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01-14-2014, 04:52 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Kucherov will have a better career than Yakupov. Save this post.

He is a better overall player, has a better shot and much better hockey IQ.

Yakupov plays with top 6 players, when he's not being benched, Kucherov plays with another rookie and a 4th line center.

No way in hell would I trade Kucherov for Yakupov straight up and you think you can get arguably the best goaltending prospect in the world on top? Yeah good luck.
That's just absolutely not true. He's mostly played 3rd/4th line minutes and with 3rd/4th line players on the Oilers this season so far. I'm a HUGE fan of Kucherov, and would love to have him, but let's be honest about these things. And if you don't know the facts, then don't think you can get away with making up bull crap, because people like me will call you on it.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Kucherov has a better career. I absolutely love the kid.

Average time-on-ice stats so far this season for both players:
Kucherov: 14:17
Yakupov: 14:24

So there you go. Both are playing similar minutes and with pretty similar caliber--mostly not top 6--players.


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01-14-2014, 04:58 PM
  #98
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Isn't it? (I note the OP was a leaf fan, so I assumed both sides are being asked to eval the deal)

The point of trade proposals is to debate whether the respective GMs would make this deal. You can't honestly tell any of us that MacT would even consider a 1for1 deal and that Yzerman, Brisbois & Verbeek wouldn't collectively spooge their pants at the opportunity?

So of course MacT would be expecting something else special along with Kucherov. Anyone can (should be able to) see that.

Is Vasilevski *too special* to make up the difference. It's a fair argument... as is mine which says of all prospects, goaltenders are the hardest to predict, especially when they haven't made the jump to the NHL yet, so I likely wouldn't make that deal on that basis due to the risk (multiplied b/c I am trading a 20 year old #1 pick).
This is BS. I know you probably haven't watched much TB hockey this year (as I haven't watched much of Edmonton), but if you take a look at the guys Yzerman uses, brings in, and builds around? They're all two-way players. More than that, they all WANT to be two-way players. Look at every U-25 forward currently playing for Tampa and you'll see a guy that is defensively responsible. Johnson, Palat, Killorn, Brown.

And Kucherov. And from pretty much every report out of Edmonton over the last couple of years, the best we've heard about Yakopov's two-way game is "it'll come over time." I'm sure he really loves scoring goals, and some team that needs scoring would be glad to have him, but TB has scorers. And as an earlier poster pointed out, it took Kucherov about five games to figure out the defensive side. I'd argue fewer.

So honestly, I wouldn't do Kucherov straight up for Yakopov, and I sincerely doubt Yzerman would either. You can think what you want about that, but the "-28" looms pretty large in his stat-line. If there's such a thing as an "Yzerman guy," Yakopov is the exact opposite of it.

And I don't care where the guy was drafted. TB currently has 2 undrafted players and a 7th rounder playing on the first line. And take a look where they are in the standings. Now have a look at Edmonton.

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01-14-2014, 04:58 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
We're not arguing that hes "better", but that they're a lot more similar at this point than people realize, so why would we deal him and a blue chip goaltending prospect for him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Kucherov will have a better career than Yakupov. Save this post.

He is a better overall player, has a better shot and much better hockey IQ.

Yakupov plays with top 6 players, when he's not being benched, Kucherov plays with another rookie and a 4th line center.

No way in hell would I trade Kucherov for Yakupov straight up and you think you can get arguably the best goaltending prospect in the world on top? Yeah good luck.

EDIT: Let me add that the reason I see Kucherov as the better overall player is his defensive abilities which have been a nice surprise since his call up. Offensively the two players are very close.


every fan base has their viewpoints....but i strongly believe this: kucherov > yakupov is simply not true

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01-14-2014, 05:10 PM
  #100
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Fits Edmonton's needs 2/10. I can see Yakupov or Eberle being moved, but not for a rookie winger and an excellent goalie prospect. Maybe the value is very good for Edmonton, but not what they really need at this point. Maybe they would make the move based on how good the value is, but it doesn't fit the team needs now. If we had just started the rebuild, possibley a great trade but they are wanting to start to compete with all of their youth, not wait another 2-4 years for more prospects to develop.

For TB, I could see them wanting Eberle or Hall or Perron, but not a struggling Yakupov. They are looking to head into the playoffs and want to compete now. I would say it fits their team needs 2/10 as well if it is for Yakupov, but probably 6 or 7/10 for Eberle. I'm not sure on value of Eberle for the 2 prospects as I don't know enough about them/watched them play enough.


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