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What happened to our offensive?

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Old
01-16-2014, 06:22 PM
  #101
bipolarhabfan
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yet, with pretty much the same roster last year the only teams that outscored us was the ones with Crosby-Malkin-Neal, Toews-Kane-Sharp-Hossa, MSL-Stamkos-Vinny. We were 5th for ES GF.
With only one game in difference, we had 30more goals at even strength this time last year.

I mean, the only difference really up front is Ryder, and I don't think you're going to argue he's the reason for such a drastic drop in production (actually, both Ryder and Briere have the same ES production).

So, I don't think it's that.
And you named the guys, add them to MaxPac-Plek-Eller-Gally-Galla, that's a lot of depth. There's really no reason for us not to be able to score at least 2 ES goals every second game. I mean come on, don't tell me we don't have the horses to score more.

It really all comes down to player usage. I think the reason our team is still high in the standings is precisely because we have so much talent. I think talent is the only thing that's saving us right now. We're just too good to drop very low in the standings.
But our coach has messed up the roles and has the team playing in a way that they really shouldn't.
Last year was a sprint, not the usual 82-game grind. The team played well in the first thirty games but slide back to their mean afterwards. They were not very good in the last 15 games. This season was very similar. The last 15 to 20 games have been brutal, little to offensive production.

Our depth, and talent, on offense leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe we would have gotten a couple of extra goals here or there if the team was used properly, whatever that is. The problems, however, have been here for four coaches, which is an inability to score at ES. The thing is that our lack of skill and size requires our players to play above their limits on a nightly basis, something that is unsustainable, hence why the focus on D.

As for our success, Price has played a huge role in that. Bring his SV% down to a more human level and say hello to the Islanders.

Habs GF since the lockout of 2004

Season GF Rank

2013-2014 2.45 21st
2013 3.04 4th
2011-2012 2.52 19th
2010-2011 2.60 21st
2009-2010 2.56 25th
2008-2009 2.95 12th
2007-2008 3.13 2nd
2006-2007 2.91 15th
2005-2006 2.94 20th

Generally speaking, we have been at the bottom of the league in scoring for most of the last 9 seasons.

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01-16-2014, 11:26 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
That's fine and dandy during the regular season. In fact, it's great during the regular season. Perry and Getzlaf are ripping it up and Anaheim, like last season, will be a favorite going into the playoffs. But what happens when Perry and Getzlaf have to play vs Zetterberg and Datsyuk, or Toews and Hossa in a 7 game series? They'll get shutdown offensively and their team will lose.
So, you're saying that playing your best players together against the opponent's best won't work either ? Are we doomed ???!!!!


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01-17-2014, 04:57 AM
  #103
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Eller now has 14 points the last 45 games.

Last year he had 30 in 46 games.

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01-17-2014, 04:58 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
Last year was a sprint, not the usual 82-game grind. The team played well in the first thirty games but slide back to their mean afterwards. They were not very good in the last 15 games. This season was very similar. The last 15 to 20 games have been brutal, little to offensive production.

Our depth, and talent, on offense leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe we would have gotten a couple of extra goals here or there if the team was used properly, whatever that is. The problems, however, have been here for four coaches, which is an inability to score at ES. The thing is that our lack of skill and size requires our players to play above their limits on a nightly basis, something that is unsustainable, hence why the focus on D.

As for our success, Price has played a huge role in that. Bring his SV% down to a more human level and say hello to the Islanders.

Habs GF since the lockout of 2004

Season GF Rank

2013-2014 2.45 21st
2013 3.04 4th
2011-2012 2.52 19th
2010-2011 2.60 21st
2009-2010 2.56 25th
2008-2009 2.95 12th
2007-2008 3.13 2nd
2006-2007 2.91 15th
2005-2006 2.94 20th

Generally speaking, we have been at the bottom of the league in scoring for most of the last 9 seasons.
Those rankings average 15.4...you can't get more "average" than that.

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01-17-2014, 06:40 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Eller now has 14 points the last 45 games.

Last year he had 30 in 46 games.
Jeez, I wonder why...

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01-17-2014, 07:08 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
Last year was a sprint, not the usual 82-game grind. The team played well in the first thirty games but slide back to their mean afterwards. They were not very good in the last 15 games. This season was very similar. The last 15 to 20 games have been brutal, little to offensive production.

Our depth, and talent, on offense leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe we would have gotten a couple of extra goals here or there if the team was used properly, whatever that is. The problems, however, have been here for four coaches, which is an inability to score at ES. The thing is that our lack of skill and size requires our players to play above their limits on a nightly basis, something that is unsustainable, hence why the focus on D.

As for our success, Price has played a huge role in that. Bring his SV% down to a more human level and say hello to the Islanders.

Habs GF since the lockout of 2004

Season GF Rank

2013-2014 2.45 21st
2013 3.04 4th
2011-2012 2.52 19th
2010-2011 2.60 21st
2009-2010 2.56 25th
2008-2009 2.95 12th
2007-2008 3.13 2nd
2006-2007 2.91 15th
2005-2006 2.94 20th

Generally speaking, we have been at the bottom of the league in scoring for most of the last 9 seasons.
Well, that's simply not true. We did not have a drop in play in the past 10-15 games last year.
We had one bad streak where we went 1-5 just before the last 2 games of the season. The problem during that streak was Price letting some real stinkers. We were even dominating games that Price just gave away.
But we did finish strong in our last two games scoring 8goals and only 1 on the PP.
If you take the last 16 games, we were 9-7, which means we went 6-2, then had a 1-5 horrible stretch, and ended with 2 wins. Over that period we scored 50 goals (12 on the PP), which pretty much falls in line with our yearly average.
So it's simply not true that we struggled for 10-15 games. It was only 6 games and it wasn't even due to our offense, we scored 1 goal only twice, lost games scoring 3-4 goals and we outshot our opponents during that stretch. As I said, it was due to seriously bad goaltending.


This year is an entirely different story. We've been a .500 team all year, outside the 10 game point streak.
However, the team changed completely the day Therrien decided to break up the EGG line and focus on 1 line getting the bulk of the offensive opportunities.
Before that there was some variance, but now we rely on one line. Galchenyuk being injured doesn't hep us. We have one of the most useless 3rd lines in the NHL with DB-Bourque and Prust, and let's not even start talking about the 4th line that wouldn't even do good in the AHL. But we could very well fix that.
Gallagher needs to play with Eller the same way DD and MaxPac need to play together. They have undeniable chemistry. We can try them out with Prust until Gally comes back. Put Bourque with DD and MaxPac, I don't know why this hasn't been tried yet. Put DB back with Plekanec and Gio, they were working well.
When the PP comes around, I don't understand why they need to go with the same line up. They can mix and try new combinations, it's the perfect freaking time to do it.
But even if they don't, then give your guys proper rotations. We have more than just 6 forwards that can play well on the PP, so create a rotation.
It's that freaking simple. The stubbornness to keep this one DD line intact and give them the most offensive opps is crippling the rest.

This is just with lines and roles. The dump and chase system needs to go. It is not at all the style we were playing last year. I mean we are constantly getting rid of the puck, that certainly doesn't help our transition game.


As for how many goals we scored 3-7 years ago, it's all very irrelevant. Different owner, different GM, different coaches, different players, different teams.


Last edited by Kriss E: 01-17-2014 at 07:47 AM.
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Old
01-17-2014, 07:37 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Eller now has 14 points the last 45 games.

Last year he had 30 in 46 games.
...last year he was given the linemates and the proper starts to succeed...this year, he's, well, given an interchanging grab-bag of linemates and put out to "defend da deficit"...big difference...there's blame to be had, but it doesn't start with Eller...

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Old
01-17-2014, 07:40 AM
  #108
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All on the coach. He wanted a defensive team this year, he got one.

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01-17-2014, 07:45 AM
  #109
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I don't get Therrien and his assistants. They had everything working fine Why oh why did they decide change everything and make stupid decision after stupid decision. Especially with line compositions and player usage. Some things just don't make sense at all with the way this coaching staff functions at time.

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01-17-2014, 07:53 AM
  #110
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Breaking up Subban and Markov. They were on ice for a ridicilous amount of our goals.

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01-17-2014, 07:55 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by CH25 View Post
I don't get Therrien and his assistants. They had everything working fine Why oh why did they decide change everything and make stupid decision after stupid decision. Especially with line compositions and player usage. Some things just don't make sense at all with the way this coaching staff functions at time.
It's mind-boggling, really. It's like someone higher ups called the coachs and said "it's working too well, fans are happy cause they have exciting hockey, the team is winning, change everything!".

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01-17-2014, 07:57 AM
  #112
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In order to score goals, you need da puck. Also, wen having the puck, you must be able to carry da puck in the other zone and puck da puck to net.

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01-17-2014, 08:05 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Eller now has 14 points the last 45 games.

Last year he had 30 in 46 games.
Really? Wow. You'd think with Travis Moen on his wing he'd be racking up the points.

What up wit' dat?

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01-17-2014, 08:10 AM
  #114
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Ever since they got hammered by LA Therrien got the excuse he wanted to start screwing with the line-up with mixed result. Until he stop all the experimentations things will not improve. The team is managing to scraps enough wins to keep the wolfs at bay and at some point hopefully a few vets or the GM will tell Therrien to cut the crap. Or worse they just tune the guy out and things will spiral out of control really fast.

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01-17-2014, 08:22 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Demon Wolf View Post
Breaking up Subban and Markov. They were on ice for a ridicilous amount of our goals.
I know they move the puck and enter the zone way more easily when they are paired together. Makes the forward lines a bit better 5v5 if you ask me.

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01-17-2014, 08:26 AM
  #116
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Players have to find a way no matter what.

Eller isn't producing because of his linemates? Then why is Plek producing while playing against tougher opposition and playing with the supposed-to-be-finished Gionta and whoever? Because he plays good and smart, that's why.

Eller has a better skillset than Plek, imo. But he isn't as smart in his decision making and positioning. Heck, even Desharnais is cutting more pass than Eller. And Eller is an average passer at best.

Stop putting everything on the coaches. Good players find a way. Last year Eller started on the fourth line and was even left in the stands for one game. Then he came back and the sames coaches gave him more and more icetime and responsabilities because he was playing well. Period. And it is not like if the coaches didn't like him this year. He's still given big responsabilities and the coaches recognize his effort level. But it is true than no winger is helping him much right now. Like any player in his situation, he has to find a way to produce. That's it.

Last game, I think Therrien made an interesting bold move when putting him on the wing. Eller couldn't do anything at center because the wingers were atrocious. The only way to use Eller to some effect was to put him on the wing. I'm sure it won't be repeat unless the wingers start playing that bad again.

And it all fall on the d-group. Given the below average talent on the wings, the offense has to come from the d-men a lot more, with good passes off the rush. But Subban is not in a very good sequence right now (nothing to be worry of) and Markov has slowed down (which had to be expected). All the other d-men of the team are below average in that department.

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01-17-2014, 08:38 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
All on the coach. He wanted a defensive team this year, he got one.
Why doesn't he realise that this mentality won't bring much success to the team come playoff time. Unless they play a possession game and Carey plays great the small habs forwards will not be able to last multiple series.

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01-17-2014, 08:45 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Players have to find a way no matter what.

Eller isn't producing because of his linemates? Then why is Plek producing while playing against tougher opposition and playing with the supposed-to-be-finished Gionta and whoever? Because he plays good and smart, that's why.

Eller has a better skillset than Plek, imo. But he isn't as smart in his decision making and positioning. Heck, even Desharnais is cutting more pass than Eller. And Eller is an average passer at best.

Stop putting everything on the coaches. Good players find a way. Last year Eller started on the fourth line and was even left in the stands for one game. Then he came back and the sames coaches gave him more and more icetime and responsabilities because he was playing well. Period. And it is not like if the coaches didn't like him this year. He's still given big responsabilities and the coaches recognize his effort level. But it is true than no winger is helping him much right now. Like any player in his situation, he has to find a way to produce. That's it.

Last game, I think Therrien made an interesting bold move when putting him on the wing. Eller couldn't do anything at center because the wingers were atrocious. The only way to use Eller to some effect was to put him on the wing. I'm sure it won't be repeat unless the wingers start playing that bad again.

And it all fall on the d-group. Given the below average talent on the wings, the offense has to come from the d-men a lot more, with good passes off the rush. But Subban is not in a very good sequence right now (nothing to be worry of) and Markov has slowed down (which had to be expected). All the other d-men of the team are below average in that department.
Absolute nonsense. The same players were playing better last year.

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01-17-2014, 08:56 AM
  #119
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Absolute nonsense. The same players were playing better last year.
Absolute nonsense. It was a half-season. Good stretches and bad stretches over a 82 games season. Some players will re-start to produce, and some other will produce less. Some will have a better season, some will have a lesser season. That's the way it is since over 100 years.

Bowman was doing the same thing, even during the 8 losses season. The good players found a way. Plekanec always finds a way. Eller isn't. Is Plekanec playing with better linemates?

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01-17-2014, 09:05 AM
  #120
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A 48 game season is 59% of a season in linear counts and 77% of a season in statistical significance. It means a lot. It is not at all meaningless as you imply.

And right now the entire team except for carey price and david desharnais is playing less well.

Plekanec is not finding a way, he is on track for one of the worst season of his career not including his rookie year, and with nuch more ice time than Eller. Plekanec did better last year.

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01-17-2014, 09:27 AM
  #121
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A 48 game season is 59% of a season in linear counts and 77% of a season in statistical significance. It means a lot.
Why's that?

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It is not at all meaningless as you imply.
I don't think it's meaningless, but I think it is overanalyzing paper-stuff to put the results on the coachs' shoulders while the game is played on the ice, and moreover, it is done over a 48 games season, which can't be count to be fully representative. This logic would mean that the same coaches are risponsible for last year's achievments. So how are they that bad or wrong? The thruth is that on the ice, many of these players aren't as good as last year, no matter their linemates.

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And right now the entire team except for carey price and david desharnais is playing less well.
All because of the coaches, right? The same coaches as last year? I prefer looking at the ice, and on it, most players simply aren't playing as well as last year. Moreover, last year, the team had Ryder who, like him or not, is a perrenial 25-50 goal scorers, no matter his linemates.

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Plekanec is not finding a way, he is on track for one of the worst season of his career not including his rookie year, and with nuch more ice time than Eller. Plekanec did better last year.
He's playing well, probably better than ever. And stop with the stats, you can't compare a 48 games season with a full 82 games season in an Olympic year. That is absolute nonsense, like you said.

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01-17-2014, 10:05 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Players have to find a way no matter what.

Eller isn't producing because of his linemates? Then why is Plek producing while playing against tougher opposition and playing with the supposed-to-be-finished Gionta and whoever? Because he plays good and smart, that's why.

Eller has a better skillset than Plek, imo. But he isn't as smart in his decision making and positioning. Heck, even Desharnais is cutting more pass than Eller. And Eller is an average passer at best.

Stop putting everything on the coaches. Good players find a way. Last year Eller started on the fourth line and was even left in the stands for one game. Then he came back and the sames coaches gave him more and more icetime and responsabilities because he was playing well. Period. And it is not like if the coaches didn't like him this year. He's still given big responsabilities and the coaches recognize his effort level. But it is true than no winger is helping him much right now. Like any player in his situation, he has to find a way to produce. That's it.

Last game, I think Therrien made an interesting bold move when putting him on the wing. Eller couldn't do anything at center because the wingers were atrocious. The only way to use Eller to some effect was to put him on the wing. I'm sure it won't be repeat unless the wingers start playing that bad again.

And it all fall on the d-group. Given the below average talent on the wings, the offense has to come from the d-men a lot more, with good passes off the rush. But Subban is not in a very good sequence right now (nothing to be worry of) and Markov has slowed down (which had to be expected). All the other d-men of the team are below average in that department.
Plekanec is better than Eller, simple as that.
Not everything is on the coaches. It's not Therrien's fault that Murray sucks, or that Bourque does. But yes, it is Therrien's fault most of the guys are playing worse than they have before.

Bold move putting Eller on the wing?? You mean stupid? Therrien already tried Eller on the wing last year and it lead to absolutely nothing. It's freaking stupid. Here's a crazy thought, move Gallagher back with Eller instead of wasting him away on DD's line.
Likewise for keeping Emelin on his off wing. Heck, Therrien will even go as far as to scratch Emelin before giving him a chance on his natural side. He will give Bouillon or Gorges some PP time but not Emelin who has racked up points on it back in the KHL.
Therrien has completely changed the system and since then, our possession numbers have dropped. This isn't some belief or fabrication, it's a fact. It's obvious enough when you watch them play, but if it isn't then read this article:
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...g-away-without

The D group?? There's nothing they can do. They play within a crap system and Therrien doesn't even let our best Dman play to his strengths. The guy is a twit.


It's not always all about the coaching, but in this instance it is. As the article states, we don't even have to fire Therrien, he just needs to wake da fak up.

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01-17-2014, 10:25 AM
  #123
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Plekanec is better than Eller, simple as that.
Not everything is on the coaches. It's not Therrien's fault that Murray sucks, or that Bourque does. But yes, it is Therrien's fault most of the guys are playing worse than they have before.

Bold move putting Eller on the wing?? You mean stupid? Therrien already tried Eller on the wing last year and it lead to absolutely nothing. It's freaking stupid. Here's a crazy thought, move Gallagher back with Eller instead of wasting him away on DD's line.
Likewise for keeping Emelin on his off wing. Heck, Therrien will even go as far as to scratch Emelin before giving him a chance on his natural side. He will give Bouillon or Gorges some PP time but not Emelin who has racked up points on it back in the KHL.
Therrien has completely changed the system and since then, our possession numbers have dropped. This isn't some belief or fabrication, it's a fact. It's obvious enough when you watch them play, but if it isn't then read this article:
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...g-away-without

The D group?? There's nothing they can do. They play within a crap system and Therrien doesn't even let our best Dman play to his strengths. The guy is a twit.


It's not always all about the coaching, but in this instance it is. As the article states, we don't even have to fire Therrien, he just needs to wake da fak up.
You didn't read me correctly about putting Eller on the wing (or I wasn't clear).

I agree it would be a stupid move if it is repeated. But it was a wise move yesterday because no one was playing good and Eller was lost on a bad line. So instead of losing what he brings, putting him with Plek and Gionta for the rest of the game gave the team at least 6 forwards playing ok, and Therrien was able to better shortened his bench. That's all I was implying. Now I don't want to see it on a regular basis (or that would mean the bottom 6 players still play horribly)

And yes I think the importance of the d-group is greatly underestimated when it comes to offensive production. Subban and Markov are good at it because they're able to give themselves enough time to make a pass off the rush, something no other d-man can do. Not only they can't do it, they're way below average in that department. It is especially important given the lack of talent the team has on the wings.

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01-17-2014, 10:26 AM
  #124
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This season, there's no forward that over-perform.
Only 2 forwards that perform at their level: Pax and Pleks
All the rest have under-performed so far.
And 2-5 have terribly under-performed: Brière, Bourque. And maybe Desharnais, Gionta and Eller.

Eller is the one that disappoints me the most because I had high expectation.

Offensively, we really suck.

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01-17-2014, 10:28 AM
  #125
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...and I agree Emelin would be better on his right side, but honnestly, I don't think the coaches have much choice since they don't have enough right handed d-man, and Emelin showed that at least he can hold his own on his wrong side.

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