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Old
01-18-2014, 01:13 PM
  #1
Natey
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Quality of Competition

How is it calculated?

You always hear that Desharnais, Gallagher, and Pacioretty get easy minutes, so I want to understand exactly how it's calculated.

From what I understood, QoC if based on +/- (relative to a specific team), isn't it? I've also heard shots have something to do with it, but I don't know.

If this line was lined up against a "checking line," wouldn't that count as poor competition (because they don't score much), even though it may be harder to score against than, say, a 2nd offensive line?

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01-18-2014, 01:15 PM
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Corsi rel +/- if I'm not mistaken.

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01-18-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkguy View Post
How is it calculated?

You always hear that Desharnais, Gallagher, and Pacioretty get easy minutes, so I want to understand exactly how it's calculated.

From what I understood, QoC if based on +/- (relative to a specific team), isn't it? I've also heard shots have something to do with it, but I don't know.

If this line was lined up against a "checking line," wouldn't that count as poor competition (because they don't score much), even though it may be harder to score against than, say, a 2nd offensive line?
It's whenever you want it to be, most importantly it has to fit the opinion you have.

Like if you hate Desharnais, you say that he always faces poor competition, but if you love Pacioretty you don't say that he's lucky because he plays against poor competition.

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01-18-2014, 02:56 PM
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This article explains it very well, and in detail:

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...of-competition

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01-18-2014, 03:18 PM
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First 19 games of the season don't count!!

QoC stats are biased and don't count!!!


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01-18-2014, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's whenever you want it to be, most importantly it has to fit the opinion you have.

Like if you hate Desharnais, you say that he always faces poor competition, but if you love Pacioretty you don't say that he's lucky because he plays against poor competition.
so true !

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01-18-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkguy View Post
Well, with the above post, I've at least figured out what isn't a quality post...
And like most of you conclusions, you're wrong here, too

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01-18-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's whenever you want it to be, most importantly it has to fit the opinion you have.

Like if you hate Desharnais, you say that he always faces poor competition, but if you love Pacioretty you don't say that he's lucky because he plays against poor competition.
You're usually pretty spot on, but that is one ignorant post.

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01-18-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
You're usually pretty spot on, but that is one ignorant post.
What I like is people saying something like that yet....no backing up. Which for me also equals to a pretty ignorant post...See, we're not that much different.

Please explain how ignorant it is. You do have to explain it, 'cause as ignorant, it's impossible for me to know.

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01-18-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
What I like is people saying something like that yet....no backing up. Which for me also equals to a pretty ignorant post...See, we're not that much different.

Please explain how ignorant it is. You do have to explain it, 'cause as ignorant, it's impossible for me to know.
You just generalized the entire use of a very popular term inside the hockey community as being pretty much useless and only used by those with an agenda. To disregard something as vital to hockey analysis and talent evaluation as quality of competition is ignorant, yes. Passing down a judgment on anyone who uses it as simply bending it to his/her own will, yeah, sorry, but that's ignorant.




And no, it really didn't need an explanation.

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01-18-2014, 03:48 PM
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Corsi isn't as accurate a stat as people claim it to be. Shots for/shots against don't necessarily suggest dominance to me. Certainly, it is something that more often than not would suggest a stronger/weaker level of puck possession(but nothing to do with shot quality). The issue however is many people feel it's a law of sorts and 100% without fault. I think it's a fancy way of averaging raw data into collected raw data. As far as I'm concerned, it's still raw data just made fancy. That being said, it DOES have some general indicators of a player's use but I'm something I'm weary of in regards to sports like Hockey. I'm no sports buff, I only watch hockey but I imagine advanced stats work better in a sport like baseball than it does it hockey.

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01-18-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
What I like is people saying something like that yet....no backing up. Which for me also equals to a pretty ignorant post...See, we're not that much different.

Please explain how ignorant it is. You do have to explain it, 'cause as ignorant, it's impossible for me to know.
Honestly, a 2 minute Google search would offer you a plethora of information on the usefulness and relative rigor of Corsi stats:

Corsi Rel QoC

A measure of competition quality using relative Corsi
as its basis. It is less luck-driven than QualComp
and more universal than Corsi QoC because it's based
on a relative metric. The most statistically sound quality
of competition metric currently used
.


(http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/puck/glossary/)

In fact, here's the actual Google website address:

https://www.google.com/#q=corsi%20stats%20hockey

...just check out any of the massive amounts of information about how useful and non-subjective relative Corsi stats are. I obviously can't speak for other posters, but to just come in and say "Corsi stats mean whatever you want them to" (while, I might add "not backing it up" in any way what so ever) seems a tad ridiculous.

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01-18-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Corsi isn't as accurate a stat as people claim it to be. Shots for/shots against don't necessarily suggest dominance to me. Certainly, it is something that more often than not would suggest a stronger/weaker level of puck possession(but nothing to do with shot quality). The issue however is many people feel it's a law of sorts and 100% without fault. I think it's a fancy way of averaging raw data into collected raw data. As far as I'm concerned, it's still raw data just made fancy. That being said, it DOES have some general indicators of a player's use but I'm something I'm weary of in regards to sports like Hockey. I'm no sports buff, I only watch hockey but I imagine advanced stats work better in a sport like baseball than it does it hockey.
Corsi is far more rigorous than any of the absolutely arbitrary criteria / stats used on this board, especially the infamous "look at only 23 of 45 games" one.

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01-18-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Corsi is far more rigorous than any of the absolutely arbitrary criteria / stats used on this board, especially the infamous "look at only 23 of 45 games" one.
Sure, some used that last part in the wrong context but AFAIK you(or someone else?) brought up "DD has been getting top PP time all season and produced X points" when in reality he only got top PP time half of the season. It's important to make the distinction, if not, use the average at least.

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01-18-2014, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
You just generalized the entire use of a very popular term inside the hockey community as being pretty much useless and only used by those with an agenda. To disregard something as vital to hockey analysis and talent evaluation as quality of competition is ignorant, yes. Passing down a judgment on anyone who uses it as simply bending it to his/her own will, yeah, sorry, but that's ignorant.




And no, it really didn't need an explanation.
Because my point is not to diss the stat itself. As it exists and paired with a couple of others, could give you and idea of what the players are all about. What I have against that stat though is people who now solely analyse a player's play SOLELY with those fancy stats in mind. And there are some people like that. And I will NEVER believe that you could actually analyse a player's play without watching the game at all. 'Cause you know that you can do that with those stats right? You could take the reports of those advanced stats, neve watch the game and have an opinion on a guy. And my other point is that no matter how great or exact that stat is....you STILL can interpret it the way you want.

Again, tell me my Desharnais vs Pacioretty example was wrong. How many people in here keeps bashing and laughing at DD for saying that he always gets the easiest matchups. And then tell me who in this board continually puts Pacioretty numbers in perspective because he ALSO (since he always play with DD) has the easiest of matchups?

And yes, people have agendas. Not sure THAT needed an explanation....My post was in good humor that CLEARLY was meant to the ones who I do think have some agendas.....For the others who do use that stat with other to have a fair analysis of any player, don't worry, my post wasn't directed to them. I'm pretty much never generalizing in any of my posts. I really didn't think I had to write "to whom it may concern".....

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01-18-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
I obviously can't speak for other posters, but to just come in and say "Corsi stats mean whatever you want them to" (while, I might add "not backing it up" in any way what so ever) seems a tad ridiculous.
Sorry if I offended the advanced stats fans..... I just believe that to have an opinion on a guy, watching them plays also should be part of a complete analysis. Strange, I know but tha's how it is for me. Yet, for every link you'd be able to give you to proove how great and how perfect any of those advanced stats are, I'd find you other links from other people who'd say it's not as reliable as some would like it to be. For me, I just have the audacity to say that while it is a good tool...it's not the only one and has to be paired with something else. Just shoot me.

As far as your great DD example you'll probably come with for the next 10 years, that's probably where reading lessons are also in order and you'd still be able to make the difference between how a player plays LATELY and how a player plays since the start of the year. And at those 2 questions, statistically, would be able to answer, much better at the first one, and below average at the 2nd one. Depending on the question you are being asked.

And I'm being told to lighen up sometimes....Is there a rule I missed in here? Let me go back and read the rules of this board that says "You shall not bashed the advanced stats".....


Last edited by Whitesnake: 01-18-2014 at 04:11 PM.
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Old
01-18-2014, 04:13 PM
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But hey, since we have some Corsi fans coming out in full force here....care to explain how you would read this year's Corsi relative QOC? Who leads it.....and the rest of the field? 'Cause if it leaves no room for agendas, or interpretation, should we just read it from top to bottom to have an idea of a guy's play?

Seriously, real question, please enlighten me.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67

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Old
01-18-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Because my point is not to diss the stat itself. As it exists and paired with a couple of others, could give you and idea of what the players are all about. What I have against that stat though is people who now solely analyse a player's play SOLELY with those fancy stats in mind. And there are some people like that. And I will NEVER believe that you could actually analyse a player's play without watching the game at all. 'Cause you know that you can do that with those stats right? You could take the reports of those advanced stats, neve watch the game and have an opinion on a guy. And my other point is that no matter how great or exact that stat is....you STILL can interpret it the way you want.

Again, tell me my Desharnais vs Pacioretty example was wrong. How many people in here keeps bashing and laughing at DD for saying that he always gets the easiest matchups. And then tell me who in this board continually puts Pacioretty numbers in perspective because he ALSO (since he always play with DD) has the easiest of matchups?

And yes, people have agendas. Not sure THAT needed an explanation....My post was in good humor that CLEARLY was meant to the ones who I do think have some agendas.....For the others who do use that stat with other to have a fair analysis of any player, don't worry, my post wasn't directed to them. I'm pretty much never generalizing in any of my posts. I really didn't think I had to write "to whom it may concern".....
Name me one person who goes to advanced stats without watching the games. Who is saying that you should analyze a player's play without watching the games? This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You're just coming out of left field with a bunch of anti-stat rhetoric that makes no sense and that nobody has ever claimed to be true.

Of course Max pac and DD will generally have the same QoC stat. It's not even one I've ever generally paid attention to. You can pretty much see it by watching the games and trying to figure out who is matched up against whom. I'm not getting into a DD debate here, we've had enough of those. I've never seen someone try to claim that maxpac plays tougher minutes than DD, though. Have you?

When did I ask for a confirmation that people have agendas? The point was that if you have an agenda, it doesn't matter whether you can quote advanced stats or not, the agenda is still there and you'll either try to bend numbers or bend what you see on the screen. It's the same thing. in the end, however, there is only one truth. Trying to blame stats or those who use stats for the general act of dishonesty when evaluating a hockey game is disengenuous and, again, ignorant.

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Old
01-18-2014, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
But hey, since we have some Corsi fans coming out in full force here....care to explain how you would read this year's Corsi relative QOC? Who leads it.....and the rest of the field? 'Cause if it leaves no room for agendas, or interpretation, should we just read it from top to bottom to have an idea of a guy's play?

Seriously, real question, please enlighten me.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67
Plekanec (and Gionta) have the best qual comp on our team, because they play the other teams top offensive lines. We always rave about how great they are defensively.

In comparison, wouldn't that be the lines that Patch and DD usually play against at ES? The lines who are the best shut down lines, that tend to not score quite as often?

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01-18-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Sorry if I offended the advanced stats fans..... I just believe that to have an opinion on a guy, watching them plays also should be part of a complete analysis. Strange, I know but tha's how it is for me. Yet, for every link you'd be able to give you to proove how great and how perfect any of those advanced stats are, I'd find you other links from other people who'd say it's not as reliable as some would like it to be.
You didn't offend me, you just made a claim based on nothing, provided no supporting evidence, and basically dismissed a widely accepted statistical tool because you wanted to.

Maybe providing all these "links from other people who'd say it's not as reliable as some would like it to be." would be a good first step?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
For me, I just had the audacity to say that while it is a good tool...it's not the only one and has to be paired with something else. Just shoot me.
Err, that's not what you said at all, you said it was a tool that was easily manipulated and shaped to support an opinion; if you want to change your opinion to what you posted above, great, but that wasn't your original argument; are you now changing your position to the above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As far as your great DD example you'll probably come with for the next 10 years, that's probably where reading lessons are also in order and you'd still be able to make the difference between how a player plays LATELY and how a player plays since the start of the year.
Being able to point out ignorance in your posts isn't a reflection on my reading comprehension abilities, nor is it an insult to you, so not sure why you got so defensive in this part. You clearly have no experience / understanding / exposure to Corsi stats, no shame in that, just read the links I provided and come back with at least a minimally informed opinion

Also, after you've read up on Corsi, could you explain why you find them subjective, but apparently are presenting your "LATELY" stats as more objective?

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01-18-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Name me one person who goes to advanced stats without watching the games. Who is saying that you should analyze a player's play without watching the games? This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You're just coming out of left field with a bunch of anti-stat rhetoric that makes no sense and that nobody has ever claimed to be true.

Of course Max pac and DD will generally have the same QoC stat. It's not even one I've ever generally paid attention to. You can pretty much see it by watching the games and trying to figure out who is matched up against whom. I'm not getting into a DD debate here, we've had enough of those. I've never seen someone try to claim that maxpac plays tougher minutes than DD, though. Have you?

When did I ask for a confirmation that people have agendas? The point was that if you have an agenda, it doesn't matter whether you can quote advanced stats or not, the agenda is still there and you'll either try to bend numbers or bend what you see on the screen. It's the same thing. in the end, however, there is only one truth. Trying to blame stats or those who use stats for the general act of dishonesty when evaluating a hockey game is disengenuous and, again, ignorant.
How many points do you have for calling me ignorant?

I'll go at it SLOWLY. My post, in good humor, while you are making it personal, was incredibly so obviously directed to the people who uses those stats and have an agenda doing it. And sorry, but it's Desharnais the greatest example. He was beyond awful at the start of the yaer, and picked up his points after. But instead of liking that he was picking up his point, TONS of comments (and if you say it's not true, THAT is dishonest), were about how lucky he was and the only reason he had those points was because of the poor QOC he was facing. But at the same time....NOBODY was saying how Pacioretty was also lucky to score all those goals because of the same QOC. Care to answer to that one? Or are you solely in a mood for name calling? My post was FOR THEM. The ones who uses those stats ONLY when it pleases them. But then you can do that for every stats. Great, so we are a good team in blocking shots. But that's bad 'cause it means we don't have the puck. And so on.

No. I've never seen people saying Pacioretty was playing tougher matchups. But I,ve never seen people saying Pacioretty was scoring those goals 'cause he was playing the same easy minutes than DD was playing though.

My point is that people calls stats THE truth. I say that sometimes, stats are THEIR truth. No need to get all cranky or anything geez...Hey next time I'll use more winks....fine?

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01-18-2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Name me one person who goes to advanced stats without watching the games. Who is saying that you should analyze a player's play without watching the games? This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You're just coming out of left field with a bunch of anti-stat rhetoric that makes no sense and that nobody has ever claimed to be true.

Of course Max pac and DD will generally have the same QoC stat. It's not even one I've ever generally paid attention to. You can pretty much see it by watching the games and trying to figure out who is matched up against whom. I'm not getting into a DD debate here, we've had enough of those. I've never seen someone try to claim that maxpac plays tougher minutes than DD, though. Have you?

When did I ask for a confirmation that people have agendas? The point was that if you have an agenda, it doesn't matter whether you can quote advanced stats or not, the agenda is still there and you'll either try to bend numbers or bend what you see on the screen. It's the same thing. in the end, however, there is only one truth. Trying to blame stats or those who use stats for the general act of dishonesty when evaluating a hockey game is disengenuous and, again, ignorant.
I don't wanna sound like a member of the Leafs management but there's still a nuance between watching games and understanding what is going on out there. I've seen people that have no clue what they're talking about and just rely on these advanced stats to support what they're saying. There's a poster on here who loves to do imaginary moves based on corsi only. I can't say I fully understand advanced stats but like any tool they are good to have to support an argument but you can't rely solely on them to prove something.

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01-18-2014, 04:36 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Corsi isn't as accurate a stat as people claim it to be. Shots for/shots against don't necessarily suggest dominance to me. Certainly, it is something that more often than not would suggest a stronger/weaker level of puck possession(but nothing to do with shot quality). The issue however is many people feel it's a law of sorts and 100% without fault. I think it's a fancy way of averaging raw data into collected raw data. As far as I'm concerned, it's still raw data just made fancy. That being said, it DOES have some general indicators of a player's use but I'm something I'm weary of in regards to sports like Hockey. I'm no sports buff, I only watch hockey but I imagine advanced stats work better in a sport like baseball than it does it hockey.
Cool strawman bro.

1. Most fancystat addicts prefer fenwick rather than corsi, and virtually nobody who actually takes this stuff seriously looks at one without the other (and often other metrics)
2. The whole point of corsi QoC is exactly the opposite of what you are claiming, the idea is to contextualize corsi instead of relying on misleading raw numbers.
3. Even then any stat is only useful with something to compare it to.

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01-18-2014, 04:41 PM
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So funny, every time I see "Corsi" here I always think of this guy I know, Danny Corsi, from Montreal. His dad is the goalie coach of the Sabres and he invented the stat.

It's just weird cause I can't think of anything else when I see the term.

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01-18-2014, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
How many points do you have for calling me ignorant?

I'll go at it SLOWLY. My post, in good humor, while you are making it personal, was incredibly so obviously directed to the people who uses those stats and have an agenda doing it. And sorry, but it's Desharnais the greatest example. He was beyond awful at the start of the yaer, and picked up his points after. But instead of liking that he was picking up his point, TONS of comments (and if you say it's not true, THAT is dishonest), were about how lucky he was and the only reason he had those points was because of the poor QOC he was facing. But at the same time....NOBODY was saying how Pacioretty was also lucky to score all those goals because of the same QOC. Care to answer to that one? Or are you solely in a mood for name calling? My post was FOR THEM. The ones who uses those stats ONLY when it pleases them. But then you can do that for every stats. Great, so we are a good team in blocking shots. But that's bad 'cause it means we don't have the puck. And so on.

No. I've never seen people saying Pacioretty was playing tougher matchups. But I,ve never seen people saying Pacioretty was scoring those goals 'cause he was playing the same easy minutes than DD was playing though.

My point is that people calls stats THE truth. I say that sometimes, stats are THEIR truth. No need to get all cranky or anything geez...Hey next time I'll use more winks....fine?
The only person who seems to be taking things personally here is you. I don't recall calling you ignorant. I said your post was, and it was picked up by another as soon as you posted it as well. You might have meant to say something else, but you didn't.

If you want me to go into the full explanation, here goes. People who know how to interpret advanced stats, and yes, that includes watching the games for context, know that Max is an exceptionnel possession forward. DD, not so much, but better than many want to admit. Those who really track advanced stats don't really rip on DD, because he is what he is. A good exploitation level player and a good option to fill in in case of an injury.

Problem with DD on this forum is that he A) is small B) is defensively inept and C) doesn't have the greatest contract. You can also throw in that fact that many were already fed up with him and perceived that he was getting preferential/unfair treatment at the cost of the team's overall play. Many have irrational opinions on here. There are those who really hate Markov, Pleks, Eller, Gorges etc. DD just happens to fill in a lot of those 'hate checkboxes' and thus gets a lot of attention.

From a stats perspective, yeah, Maxpac benefits from softer competition and a lot of PP time just like DD, but unlike DD, Maxpac is not playing with any players miles ahead of him to help him out. He's driving the bus on that line. Well, really, besides playing with pleks (maybe), he'll always be the one driving the bus on his line. he really is that good. Now you can move him up to play with pleks against tougher competition, but you'll also be making up for that by giving him better possession linemates.

That's a very simplistic explanation, though, and could go much deeper.

And again I'll have to stop you, because no, I've never seen anyone call the stats the truth. Nobody who spouts stats is worth listening to if he claims that the numbers are all that matters. Perhaps that's why I don't see these purported stat bible thumpers as much as you do, it's because I know to stay away from anyone with such ludicrous opinions.

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