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Rutherford Throwing Semin Under the Bus

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Old
01-21-2014, 05:39 AM
  #101
Wings4Life
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So one of the Russian KHL wingers chosen over Semin has been confirmed to be out of the Olympics about 24 hours ago, and Russia will need to name a replacement soon. Semin has been playing great, you have to think Russian management have taken note.

They could very well be watching the game tonight, and Semin I'm sure is aware of that. Hopefully he performs well, and ends up on the scoresheet again.

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01-21-2014, 09:14 AM
  #102
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^...and Semin is now on the Russian Olympic Squad, via the twittersphere


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01-22-2014, 09:43 AM
  #103
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Quote:
TheOllieC
It's pretty ****ed up regardless.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was making light of, which is the notion that keeps cropping-up that any criticism of Semin's performance is a signpost of being founded on irrational bigotry that results in persecution following him wherever he goes. You see, I think that is pretty ****-ed up. Playing on his name to allude to an actual, horrific example of this is taking to task the effort by some to shut down debate by assigning those negative traits to others when they use such loaded statements. How does one refute those kinds of accusations, and prove a negative? The answer is, one doesn't and shouldn't have to. The correct response is to mock the loaded notion itself when it's used in this sweeping manner, just like it is right and proper to make fun of hyperbole and mis-applied terms used to elicit a negative emotional response. For example, that JR was using Semin as the team's "scapegoat" in response to the interviewer's questions about Semin. I wonder if some don't actually know what the word means or from where it's derived?

People can debate the value of advanced stats vs the eyeball test, or whether either trumps what winds up on the scoreboard after 60, or if Semin is living up to his contract etc etc, all have merit.. but I find the charge that he's being treated in some grossly unfair manner or singled-out simply because of who he is to be ridiculous. There's no evidence of this. It's laced with an accusatory undertone of a more serious nature towards anyone who dares criticize how he's been playing the game of hockey by those who transpose their own prejudices over the situation.

So, I set up an obvious, patently ridiculous statement that, by combining them, in fact contrasts a very real and serious example vs what we have here (the very not) in order to mock the accusation and hyperbole being used by Semin's hyper-defenders who think critiquing him represents some sort of "here we go again", prejudicial attack or laying the team's failure solely on his back. If I was too obtuse, sorry. If you're one of those who assumes others criticize Semin because their opinions are rooted in bigotry, then I'm not.


Last edited by NorthStar4Canes: 01-22-2014 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Accidentally using "they're" for "their", an honest mistake unlike using "loose" for "lose" which is egregious and purposeful
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01-22-2014, 09:46 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStar4Canes View Post
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was making light of, which is the notion that keeps cropping-up that any criticism of Semin's performance is a signpost of being founded on irrational bigotry that results in persecution following him wherever he goes. You see, I think that is pretty ****-ed up. Playing on his name to allude to an actual, horrific example of this is taking to task the effort by some to shut down debate by assigning those negative traits to others when they use such loaded statements. How does one refute those kinds of accusations, and prove a negative? The answer is, one doesn't and shouldn't have to. The correct response is to mock the loaded notion itself when it's used in this sweeping manner, just like it is right and proper to make fun of hyperbole and mis-applied terms used to elicit a negative emotional response. For example, that JR was using Semin as the team's "scapegoat" in response to the interviewer's questions about Semin. I wonder if some don't actually know what the word means or from where it's derived?

People can debate the value of advanced stats vs the eyeball test, or whether either trumps what winds up on the scoreboard after 60, or if Semin is living up to his contract etc etc, all have merit.. but I find the charge that he's being treated in some grossly unfair manner or singled-out simply because of who he is to be ridiculous. There's no evidence of this. It's laced with an accusatory undertone of a more serious nature towards anyone who dares criticize how he's been playing the game of hockey by those who transpose their own prejudices over the situation.

So, I set up an obvious, patently ridiculous statement that, by combining them, in fact contrasts a very real and serious example with what we have here (the very not) in order to mock the accusation and hyperbole being used by Semin's hyper-defenders who think critiquing him represents some sort of "here we go again", prejudicial attack or laying the team's failure solely on his back. If I was too obtuse, sorry. If you're one of those who assumes others criticize Semin because they're opinions are rooted in bigotry, then I'm not.
so you are saying alex semin is actually #hitler?

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01-22-2014, 10:03 AM
  #105
NorthStar4Canes
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Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post

you guys should be more offended by northstar's stunning rejection of math
Color me impressed, just how the he11 did you dig up a direct quote from my 12th grade Calculus teacher? I wasn't even aware full transcripts of class were being made let alone still exist, but at least now I can stop wondering what all those kids sitting up front were scribbling down as he talked. I thought they were just wasting precious graphite.

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01-22-2014, 10:12 AM
  #106
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Your calculus teacher calls you northstar?

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01-22-2014, 10:15 AM
  #107
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So if Semin is a PPG player for the remainder of the season, will it just be a coincidence that the uptick in his play occured after JR's comments?

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01-22-2014, 10:40 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by CarolinaCaniac View Post
So if Semin is a PPG player for the remainder of the season, will it just be a coincidence that the uptick in his play occured after JR's comments?
He has 12 points in his last 14 games ...

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01-22-2014, 10:41 AM
  #109
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Semin has 11 points in his last 12 games. He's been a PPG player since Christmas.

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01-22-2014, 10:44 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by halleJOKEL View Post
so you are saying alex semin is actually #hitler?
Of course not. I think I was pretty clear in saying he is actually like one of those red-robed Emperor guards that even Darth Vader didn't rate. Kind of mysterious and they didn't say a lot, but obviously must have had a bunch of secret gov ninja moves in their skillset or wouldn't have been rostered where they were. More about them may have been explained later, but I stopped paying attention when I found out that Imperial Stormtrooper helmets and armor made from some sort of high tech super-plastic aren't impervious to rocks slung by stone age shih tzus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Your calculus teacher calls you northstar?
Well, okay, way back then he didn't call me my current HFboards name. It was a simpler time, before when most of you were born, when a Calc teacher could say "Hey dummy" or call a back-bencher "Einstein" with a roll of his eyes and no harm was meant nor offense taken by it.

I won't even begin to tell you what my Statistics prof at Uni called me. It would get censored anyway.

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01-22-2014, 10:54 AM
  #111
Stephen Goalbert
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Originally Posted by NorthStar4Canes View Post
Well, okay, way back then he didn't call me my current HFboards name. It was a simpler time, before when most of you were born, when a Calc teacher could say "Hey dummy" or call a back-bencher "Einstein" with a roll of his eyes and no harm was meant nor offense taken by it.

I won't even begin to tell you what my Statistics prof at Uni called me. It would get censored anyway.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

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01-22-2014, 11:48 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
You say that like it's a bad thing.
I did? I surely didn't mean to because at the time having the nice cool buzzes going in class that led to some of the confusion was surely worth it, and just made things funnier.

All these misunderstandings, I don't think I'm communicating very well lately. You know what, I'm just gonna ban myself for a couple days. See y'all Friday maybe.

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01-22-2014, 12:02 PM
  #113
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I was trying to put my finger on who you reminded me of. Then I remembered:

http://themetapicture.com/dear-neighbor/

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01-23-2014, 08:15 PM
  #114
Zombie Mike Murphy
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So, Semin has 6 goals in the last 4 games. Message received? 18 months of well below career average shooting % finally averaging out?

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01-23-2014, 08:46 PM
  #115
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I never saw this interaction above and I want to say that people lighting up NorthStar for the comparison drawn need to both lighten up and realize the nature of the criticism he was expressing. Sheesh. Don't run the poor guy off he can barely do math.

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01-23-2014, 09:00 PM
  #116
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It's good to see that Sasha got the last laugh...

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01-23-2014, 09:03 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Onetimersniper28 View Post
It's good to see that Sasha got the last laugh...
Only if you believe this wasn't JR's plan all along. This was JR sending a message. Semin responds with "Message Received".

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01-23-2014, 09:15 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Only if you believe this wasn't JR's plan all along. This was JR sending a message. Semin responds with "Message Received".
I'm not talking about JR, I'm talking about the Olympic snub, and how he turned the tables to earn himself a spot.

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01-24-2014, 10:31 AM
  #119
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Since I didn't see this posted and it seems relevant:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/...e-message.html

Quote:
It has been some week for Semin. Canes general manager Jim Rutherford, in a televised interview late last week with ABC 11-WTVD, made some pointed remarks about Semin and his lack of productivity. Semin, who makes $7 million a year, then scored two goals Saturday against Florida, scored Sunday against Tampa Bay and again Wednesday in the Canes' 3-2 win at Philadelphia -- four goals in three games, giving the Russian winger 10 for the season.

But Rutherford said the message delivered to Semin came earlier than his televised comments.

"Over the course of the season I've talked to Alex and his agent," Rutherford said. "Because of the language problems, while I have talked with Alex a few times, I communicate with him through his agent so there is a total understanding of what's being said.

"Those comments (to WTVD) didn't just come out of the blue. They had already been communicated. Alex understood we have a big investment in him, that certain players have certain roles and his role for us is to score goals and be productive."

Another player to draw criticism from Rutherford in the interview was forward Tuomo Ruutu, who has four goals and eight assists and is minus-16 in 44 games. Ruutu was moved to the fourth line for the Flyers game and immediately responded with his best shift of the season and then a strong game, getting in seven hits.

Again, Rutherford said Ruutu also knew of his concerns in advance of his televised remarks.

"I met with him about 10 days ago and we walked through where he is at, and I expressed what we needed him to do," Rutherford said. "He's certainly feeling the pressure. He knows he's not on top of his game right now. But he's a good player and a good person and I feel he will get it going."

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01-24-2014, 10:47 AM
  #120
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Kind of does away with the "suddenly, motivation" a little. Hopefully.

Also, I really, really hate plus/minus. If Semin dominates in the offensive zone, but Ben Bishop stands on his head, and then the Lightning take the puck the other way and Justin Peters allows a soft goal/Sekera breaks his stick, etc, he gets a minus.

But he had almost nothing to do with the play. In fact, he just came off a dominating shift in the offensive zone and the team put up, let's say 10 shot attempts. But he's tagged with a minus because your defenseman/goaltender messed up.

Corsi is basically a better plus/minus. On that series of events, Semin had 10 attempts to score, but the one attempt they had went in through no fault of your own. So though he's a "minus player" in that archaic stat, he's a +9 corsi. It's kind of like tarheelhockey's subjective plus/minus thread, but counts everything. Goals are a very infrequent event in hockey, and can be caused by a bunch of different things. It's not fair to penalize someone so harshly (by comparison to corsi).

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01-24-2014, 10:56 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
Kind of does away with the "suddenly, motivation" a little. Hopefully.

Also, I really, really hate plus/minus. If Semin dominates in the offensive zone, but Ben Bishop stands on his head, and then the Lightning take the puck the other way and Justin Peters allows a soft goal/Sekera breaks his stick, etc, he gets a minus.

But he had almost nothing to do with the play. In fact, he just came off a dominating shift in the offensive zone and the team put up, let's say 10 shot attempts. But he's tagged with a minus because your defenseman/goaltender messed up.

Corsi is basically a better plus/minus. On that series of events, Semin had 10 attempts to score, but the one attempt they had went in through no fault of your own. So though he's a "minus player" in that archaic stat, he's a +9 corsi. It's kind of like tarheelhockey's subjective plus/minus thread, but counts everything. Goals are a very infrequent event in hockey, and can be caused by a bunch of different things. It's not fair to penalize someone so harshly (by comparison to corsi).
+/- is a terrible statistical measure. You get a +/- in an empty net situation. It's dumb.

Corsi isn't exactly perfect either obviously. You can take an ill advised shot into a guys shin pads that turns into an odd man rush that gets broken up by your D before a shot can be attempted and your Corsi is impacted positively. Unless ofcourse I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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01-24-2014, 11:03 AM
  #122
What the Faulk
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Sure, but there's so many more corsi events (goal, SOG, block, miss) than goals that it filters out the noise. A typical game might have 3-7 goals, but 70-140 corsi events are not uncommon. Corsi is a good predictor of success, but does not guarantee it. But if you're spending a large portion of your time in the offensive zone (ie, you take 55% of shot attempts in a game), chances are you'll get bounces too, just like that block that leads to a transition chance.

Corsi is only one part of the game, but it's far more relevant than plus/minus. Semin is a plus 135 on the year, the best differential on the team. When he's on the ice, the Hurricanes take 55.8% of overall shots. It really was only a matter of a time that he started scoring.

Take a look at the list of the best corsi teams. They're some of the best in the league. The Devils are up there, and they're right around the Hurricanes in the standings, but that has to do with subpar goaltending that stands to rebound. It might not, or it might only partially, but if the Devils suddenly go on a surge, it shouldn't be that surprising.

EDIT: I know I keep pushing "advanced" stats in many different threads, but there's a reason they're becoming very prevalent, and that teams are starting to hire "directors of analytics". You don't have to consider them as a be all end all (they're not), but they shouldn't be outright dismissed either.


Last edited by What the Faulk: 01-24-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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01-24-2014, 11:09 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
Sure, but there's so many more corsi events (goal, SOG, block, miss) than goals that it filters out the noise. A typical game might have 3-7 goals, but 70-140 corsi events are not uncommon. Corsi is a good predictor of success, but does not guarantee it. But if you're spending a large portion of your time in the offensive zone (ie, you take 55% of shot attempts in a game), chances are you'll get bounces too, just like that block that leads to a transition chance.

Corsi is only one part of the game, but it's far more relevant than plus/minus. Semin is a plus 135 on the year, the best differential on the team. When he's on the ice, the Hurricanes take 55.8% of overall shots. It really was only a matter of a time that he started scoring.
Isn't that assisted by having more offensive zone starts and playing with the best player (arguably) on the team almost exclusively? I mean every single time Eric wins an offensive zone face off Semin gets a shot attempt.

I do very much get that Corsi is a better indicator than +/- though.

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01-24-2014, 11:10 AM
  #124
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Pfft, he had two shot attempts against Toronto and the team won 6-1. Clearly, he's not crucial to their ability to score goals.

And just to be sure:


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01-24-2014, 11:13 AM
  #125
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it's quite amazing that Jim Rutherford, using the media for ten minutes, was able to manipulate the minds and opinions of the fan base to this extent. mission accomplished indeed JR.

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