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Bergevin discussion thread III: The Impatient-Hater vs the Patient-Lover Edition

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01-14-2014, 04:35 PM
  #1
Andy
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Bergevin discussion thread III: The Impatient-Hater vs the Patient-Lover Edition

Hate and Love away. There is no grey, only black and white!

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01-14-2014, 04:36 PM
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I like it.

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01-14-2014, 04:37 PM
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Nicely done, Andy.

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Bergevin discussion threat III: The Impatient Hater vs the Patient Lover edition
The best part ... it's not a "thread" but a "threat".

Love the thread title.

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01-14-2014, 04:40 PM
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Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Nicely done, Andy.

Only that "addition" should have been "edition". But the best part ... it's not a "thread" but a "threat".

Still, love the thread title.
Yeah, I fixed the "edition", but I'm partial to keeping the threat alive...

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01-14-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Hate and Love away. There is no grey, only black and white!
You missed an opportunity to make it rhyme... "Hate and love away. Only black and white, there is no grey."

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01-14-2014, 04:41 PM
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It is a generational thing. Old haters are skeptical because they have seen and heard it all before, young and naive lovers believe anything MB says because he wears nice suits.

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01-14-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Yeah, I fixed the "edition", but I'm partial to keeping the threat alive...
Based on the previous thread, participants are already reloading. Their stinger missiles at the ready, it's going to be threateningly entertaining.

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01-14-2014, 04:47 PM
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Smokey Thompson
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Lol great thread title Andy

Looking forward to another 40 page thread of good discussion.

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01-14-2014, 04:50 PM
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MathMan
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So, on the subject of Bergevin's plan. What is it exactly? Has he told anyone?

"Build through the draft" is far too general a statement to be a plan; there ought to be a rough timeline, at least.

It appears that Bergevin intends to be conservative in the short term; is that also going to be the case in the long term, or does he see an horizon where he'll need to make some moves, and if so, when?

People, especially in the media, keep praising Bergevin's willingness and dedication to stick to his plan, but there's precious little information that I've seen on what that plan actually is.

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01-14-2014, 04:51 PM
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What if I'm indifferent?

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01-14-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
Lol great thread title Andy

Looking forward to another 40 page thread of good discussion.
As you typed this, Kriss E has already prepared 20 paragraphs of argumentation, to be cut and pasted shortly.

Just takes one contrarian to get the ball rolling.

Something like, "I don't know why you guys are such haters. Bergevin is doing a great job. I'd give him an A grade."

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01-14-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ThaDevilGirl View Post
What if I'm indifferent?
You GTFO!!

JK. You're in the minority, have fun finding a place to voice your opinion

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01-14-2014, 04:53 PM
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impatient hater vs patient fanboy should be the title. Patient-lover just sounds...like me

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01-14-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
impatient hater vs patient fanboy should be the title. Patient-lover just sounds...like me
I feel like fanboy has worse connotations than hater and that the fanboys would get mad

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01-14-2014, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
So, on the subject of Bergevin's plan. What is it exactly? Has he told anyone?

"Build through the draft" is far too general a statement to be a plan; there ought to be a rough timeline, at least.

It appears that Bergevin intends to be conservative in the short term; is that also going to be the case in the long term, or does he see an horizon where he'll need to make some moves, and if so, when?

People, especially in the media, keep praising Bergevin's willingness and dedication to stick to his plan, but there's precious little information that I've seen on what that plan actually is.
I think it just comes down to too many teams in contention which does two things. First, teams aren't going to be giving up valuable assets when they're trying to make the playoffs. Second, because of the prior point, the price for players is driven way up becasue of competition for assets.

Whether we want Bergevin to do something or not, he just hasn't been willing to part with the assets or wasn't quick enough on the draw for any player that has been moved (Vanek comes to mind). Not necessarily a bad thing, especially when the team is somewhat successful with the roster they have.

Also, the off-season wasn't all that great for free agents and I for one am glad he didn't overpay for Clarkson or Clowe. Whlie I would have preferred Jagr over Briere, he didn't want him and he's ultimately in charge. Doesn't mean we can't criticize him for what we deem failures in managing but there are just so many variables that it truly hard for us as fans to judge the moves made without a view of the entire context.

Just me $0.02

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01-14-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
So, on the subject of Bergevin's plan. What is it exactly? Has he told anyone?

"Build through the draft" is far too general a statement to be a plan; there ought to be a rough timeline, at least.

It appears that Bergevin intends to be conservative in the short term; is that also going to be the case in the long term, or does he see an horizon where he'll need to make some moves, and if so, when?

People, especially in the media, keep praising Bergevin's willingness and dedication to stick to his plan, but there's precious little information that I've seen on what that plan actually is.
To me, if a GM has a specific "timeline", then he's a fool. Something like "A 5-year Plan" would just be an admission of ignorance about how the business works.

In words, his philosophy sounds good. Be conservative with his acquisition strategy, keep a sound drafting and development system as the backbone, try to improve the team without hurting the future, however you want to phrase all that, it's my general impression of his philosophy, anyway.

But if a GM gets into specifics like "we'll win 2 playoff rounds by Year 2" or be "full-time Cup contenders and major trade deadline buyers by Year 5" or whatever, then I just think that would be ignoring reality. Stuff happens. You simply can't predict the pace of advancement, or what bumps there will be in the road. All you can do is try to keep improving the team at every turn, and hope that the end result is a measure of success that ultimately allows you to keep your job, whatever that measure of success (a championship may not even be required).

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01-14-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
You GTFO!!

JK. You're in the minority, have fun finding a place to voice your opinion
MB's looks are overrated. There, I said it.

I'm out now. Enjoy the endless debates!

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01-14-2014, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
So, on the subject of Bergevin's plan. What is it exactly? Has he told anyone?

"Build through the draft" is far too general a statement to be a plan; there ought to be a rough timeline, at least.

It appears that Bergevin intends to be conservative in the short term; is that also going to be the case in the long term, or does he see an horizon where he'll need to make some moves, and if so, when?

People, especially in the media, keep praising Bergevin's willingness and dedication to stick to his plan, but there's precious little information that I've seen on what that plan actually is.
I posted this in the last thread. In my view, Bergevin's goal is to let our young core continue to develop while getting playoff experience. The center piece of his master plan is the first player he acquired as GM, Alex Galchenyuk. When Alex becomes the franchise center we've been waiting ages for, Bergevin's team will be ready to contend. A logical assumption would suggest that he will become that player by 2015-2016.

As for his "build through the draft" mantra, it has to do more with building a franchise that has a steady stream of young guys developing in the system and joining the Big Club when they are ready. Similar to what the Hawks have done. I'm not talking about Toews and Kane, I'm talking about guys like Pirri, Shaw, Leddy, Saad, Kruger. Or like Detroit has done with guys like Nyqvist, Tatar, Helm, Andersson, Smith, Marchenko.

He wants young players to grow and flourish in the organization, something that the previous regime failed miserably at. And let us not forget that he inherited a nearly empty cup board. Yes there were guys like Gally, Bourni, Tinner, and Beaulieu. But that's about it, and 3 of those guys were from 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
As you typed this, Kriss E has already prepared 20 paragraphs of argumentation, to be cut and pasted shortly.

Just takes one contrarian to get the ball rolling.

Something like, "I don't know why you guys are such haters. Bergevin is doing a great job. I'd give him an A grade."
That sounds more like Habsterix. Forget putting together a sound argument, let me just label you a hater .

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01-14-2014, 05:06 PM
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3. About people having freedom of expression, well if you believe in that, stop acting like an arrogant know it all jerk when you speak to other posters and then maybe people will stop accusing of being unable to accept that people have differing opinions. In other words, start conducting yourself like an adult instead of petty shots and a condescending attitude (cue the "calling a spade a space" comment from you plus the addition emoticon to avoid what people are actually telling you).
I can see how getting called out on an open forum for absurdity can be perceived as that. It's not my intention. But I will continue to call out the negative-nancies of this world.

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01-14-2014, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
So, on the subject of Bergevin's plan. What is it exactly? Has he told anyone?

"Build through the draft" is far too general a statement to be a plan; there ought to be a rough timeline, at least.

It appears that Bergevin intends to be conservative in the short term; is that also going to be the case in the long term, or does he see an horizon where he'll need to make some moves, and if so, when?

People, especially in the media, keep praising Bergevin's willingness and dedication to stick to his plan, but there's precious little information that I've seen on what that plan actually is.
Take a few steps back from the tree. There's a forest out there and the plan can be seen by those who listen to what he's saying.

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01-14-2014, 05:07 PM
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01-14-2014, 05:12 PM
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MathMan
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
I think it just comes down to too many teams in contention which does two things. First, teams aren't going to be giving up valuable assets when they're trying to make the playoffs. Second, because of the prior point, the price for players is driven way up becasue of competition for assets.
Well, that's not a plan. That's a circumstance.

His plan should have some idea of what he's going to do, and just as importantly, when.

"Building through the draft", which he insists on, is a bit too general, but it may give us a timeframe if that's all he intends to do, as draft picks typically only have an impact 4-5 years down the line, and presumably that "build" should take at least a few drafts. So, the one strategy he's offered is a very long-term approach. What's the plan in the interim?

Also: is the team really where Bergevin envisioned it would be when he took office? Was "building through the draft" based on the notion that the Habs would be in the lottery a few times, and if so, has that thinking changed now that it's obvious the roster is significantly better than that?

Lots of questions, not much in the way of answers.

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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Also, the off-season wasn't all that great for free agents and I for one am glad he didn't overpay for Clarkson or Clowe.
I am too, but the signings he did make were all mistakes, and ones that point to structural issues with how the org makes decisions.

Two of the worst players in the entire NHL joined the Habs last offseason. That's not good regardless of what the plan is, assuming you're not aiming for last place (which doesn't seem to be the case).

Yes, they were marginal, one-year moves. They were also both unabashedly negative with zero positives. That's a problem no matter what the plan is.

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01-14-2014, 05:14 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
To me, if a GM has a specific "timeline", then he's a fool. Something like "A 5-year Plan" would just be an admission of ignorance about how the business works.
It doesn't need to be specific, but he surely must have a rough idea of how long this is going to take. Otherwise he could just "build through the draft" indefinitely.

You can't make precise predictions, but you'd be nuts not to make educated predictions, with a margin of error, and base your plan on that.

He says he wants to build a "consistent contender"; what kind of timeframe will that take? 2-3 years? 4-5? 7-8?

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01-14-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Take a few steps back from the tree. There's a forest out there and the plan can be seen by those who listen to what he's saying.
Enlighten me, then, since I clearly must be blind.

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01-14-2014, 05:24 PM
  #25
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It doesn't need to be specific, but he surely must have a rough idea of how long this is going to take. Otherwise he could just "build through the draft" indefinitely.

You can't make precise predictions, but you'd be nuts not to make educated predictions, with a margin of error, and base your plan on that.

He says he wants to build a "consistent contender"; what kind of timeframe will that take? 2-3 years? 4-5? 7-8?
no one should be waiting for MB to awnser these Q, it didnt take him much time to switch never say anything of significance to the medias. we're building trough the draft is all we'l hear from him.

expecting anything but vague awnsers from him is like expecting a smile from Gainey

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