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Is EDM a better team than us, now that they have Pronger and Peca?

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Old
08-05-2005, 04:38 PM
  #76
Badger Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hunter74
The Oilers definetly upgraded there team by subtracting Brewer and York for Pronger and Peca. But you can argue how much of an improvement that is. the team lost to pretty good players in exchange for one great player and one pretty good player.
Those same thoughts had occurred to me as well. Definitely, there's no lack of leadership with those two. However, Peca's entering a period in his career (his 30's) in which it'll be more difficult to recover from injuries, due to his style of play. Sure, he's a great addition but he was at his peak, while in Buffalo, where he was also counted on to be a #1 center. This is, of course, making the assumption that the same will be expected of him in Edmonton. With the career-threatening wrist injury Pronger had, one has to question the wisdom of a five-year contract. Maybe this will all work out, but whether the team is dramatically improved, remains to be seen. If the Oilers had been able to keep Brewer and York, the recent additions would appear to be more impressive. We shall see.

-----

Once more: this is an appeal to the maturity of the posters on this board, and it's going out to Flames fans and Oilers fans. Keep it civil! Some of the more abrasive Oilers fans are starting to pollute this board. The individual, who started this thread, is no less innocent. Agitating a flame war will not be tolerated.

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08-05-2005, 04:53 PM
  #77
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As an Oiler fan my opinion (sadly) is that the Flames are the better squad. I would have to say that from a talent standpoint the teams are pretty even although I would give the Flames the definite edge (specifically in goal - the most important position on the roster). However, with the teams so close in general talent I could really care less about the "this player" > "that player" argument. The important distinction is:

Sutter > (plus many more >s) McTavish

IF Sutter were coaching the Oilers I would give them the edge. Unfortunately he's behind the bench in Cowland so they will likely contend for top team in the West.

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08-05-2005, 04:54 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hunter74
You are right we only finished 5pts ahead of you guys. But that doesn't give any real insight on how closly these two clubs are matched. The Flames out performed your team despite being severly handicapped by multiple injuries to key players over teh season and the only reason teh Oilers even got close to us in the standings is b/c were given Nedved for vitually nothing by Sather(trade should of been shot down by the NHL but i wont complain to much since we got a pretty good deal on Simon aswell).
What about the Oilers losing players like York, Conklin, etc...? What about Tommy playing hurt at the beginning of the year and proceeding to play horribly during that stretch?

And as for the Oilers winning because of Nedved, the Oilers had started putting it together a couple of weeks before Nedved.

Quote:
Comparisons This upcoming season.

Forwards- Flames Win - Flames have the best forward out of the group which ultimatly gives them the edge in a rather close contest. Each teams group of forwards have different strengths with the Oilers being more offensive and the Flames being more defensive. The Oilers offense from ther forwards at first glance seems to be more spread out but the Flames have 6 players who scored 15+ goals while the Oilers have 8. Not much of a difference. Now with the subtration of York and the addition of Peca it strengthens the Oilers forward groups overall game and leadsership but does not improve on there offense or there need for a suitable #1 center who can put up points. The Flames on the other hand have improved there forward group by adding Amonte who is a slight improvement on Gelinas and McCarty who is another improvement on Clark.
I'll take Iginla over anyone on the Oilers any day of the week... but I'll also take the Oilers bottom 6 over the Flames bottom 6. The fact of the matter is, without Iginla on the ice, the Flames forwards were outscored at an absolutely dismal pace. The Oilers were a much better 5 on 5 team than the Flames were, but the Flames had much better special teams. The Oilers PK was absolutely terrble in the first 30 games of the season (under 70%) and no doubt cost them a whack of points. It was much better in the last 50 games clicking at about 86% (which over the course of a full season would have put them in the top 10. Now, you can argue which is the real deal, the team that got lit up, or the team that performed well in the 2nd half (when the goaltending was much better). But there is no doubt that Peca drastically increases their PK. As for a #1 centre that puts up points, the difference between Peca and Langkow from last season is power play time in their point totals. Langkow got it, Peca didn't. Peca will also have an easier time in Edmonton because of guys like Horcoff and Reasoner (who have been the guys who got the tough assignments in recent years). Iginla is the best player, but they are pretty darn even.

Quote:
Defense - Flames Win - Even thought the Oilers have the best defenseman out of the two teams the Oilers lack of quality depth and the Flames abundance of very good defenseman makes up for this. As a whole teh Flames boast Regehr, Leopold, Lydman, Warrener, Ference and Montador with Phaneuf looking to play in the NHL this season. While the Oilers have Pronger, Staois(how overrated can someon be?), Smith, Bergeron, Semenov, Ulanov and Cross.
Staois is over-rated? Based on what? He plays very tough minutes and gets very good results... what more exactly do you want in a defence? So does Smith. Pronger is by far the best on both teams for this as well. Cross and Pronger also didn't do a bad job last year either.

[quote]Pronger is a great defenseman but you need more than 2 above average defenseman and a youngster with potential sprinkled with some veteran journey men.[quote]

Well, it depends on what exactly you are trying to do. 5 on 5 the Oilers were a +27, the Flames a +13. It may not look pretty, but it gets the job done. The Oilers were hurt early on by some bad goaltending... but once the goaltending got in check, the team was remarkably better.

[quote]If the Oilers Bergeron and Semenov can take large steps forward this year they will be able to possible over take Calgary's defense core in overal quality. Calgary's core is just to good at what they do and there depth is right up there with the best in the league. 1 star defenseman and some 3rd pairing guys doesn't catapoult a team taht far.[quote]

1 star and some 3rd pairing defencemen? Smith is easily a #2 defenceman on many teams in the NHL, and at the very least a top 2nd pairing defenceman. Staois is also, at the very least, a very good 2nd pairing defenceman. Cross and Ulanov have done nothing but put up results in Edmonton as well.

Quote:
Pronger/Staios greater than Regehr/Leopold
Smith/Bergeron less than Warrener/Lydman
Semenov/Ulanov less than Ference/Phaneuf or even Montador
Only 2 of the Oilers defenseman would be considered to have upward potnetial while 5 of the Flames woudl still be considered to upward potential.
What exactly are we talking about? What is your criteria? It sure isn't outscoring quality opposition.

A lot of conjecture, but no actual evidence.

Quote:
Goaltending - Flames win easily - Yes Kipper needs to prove himself over a full seaosn but so does Conklin. Kippers accomplishments and performacen over hte past 2 years speaks for itself I would assume.
Little doubt there. Even if Kipper isn't as good as 03-04, he'd have to play a lot worse to get down to league average, which is where the Oilers currently sit.

Quote:
Coaching - Flames easily again - Even Oilers fans dont like MacT.
Easily? If you insist... if the Flames are apparantly so superior to the Oilers, how come the Oilers were a significantly better 5 on 5 club (where coaching has the most impact)?

Food for thought.

If I had to put it in order...

Forwards, slight edge to the Oilers
Defence, equal
goaltending, edge to the flames

We'll see how the regular season goes...

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Old
08-05-2005, 04:56 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone

Smith = Lydman... Lydman brings a touch more offense, Smith brings more physical play.
Warrener = Staois... Very comparable defencemen

Ok you read this brutal comparison over and re-ask that question again to yourself.

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08-05-2005, 05:08 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMA
Pronger > Regehr (No argument here.. Pronger might be the best in the league)

Leopold >= Smith. Smith is a better shutdown defender, but personally I think that Leopold's a better overall d-man.

Lydman >= Staios. Again Staios is a good defensive defenceman with some offensive upside (he actually outscored Lydman this year due to Lydman's injuries) but Lydman plays a better overall game.

Warraner > Ulanov. Ulanov is a guy that can play top 4 minutes if need be. Warraner is a 2nd pair d-man right now. Like you said... comparable to Staios

Ference > Semenov. Ference is a year and a half older and has a 150 more games to his credit. Semenov likely has higher upside, but "This is not potential, this is talking about this upcoming season."

Phaneuf = Bergeron. We'll keep this equal for arguments sake. Bergeron has NHL experience. Phaneuf is considered the best d-man not playing in the NHL.

So here's my point. When you compared players you had 2 Oiler players better than Calgary defender, one Calgary player better than an Edmonton defender and three comparables. I've got 3-4 Calgary players that are better (Give or take on Leopold and Smith), 1 Oiler defenceman and a tie.

And yet it's the exact six same d-men that will start on the opening day roster.... Gotta look at the players as a whole.. not individually. Edmonton has the best d-man no doubt... but Calgary looks to have more depth (for this year anyway.. I know that Edmonton has d prospects in the system)
I just went by the shift chart... in fact, I actually changed a couple of matchups to not get completely flamed here (i.e. moving regehr up).

Lydman, Warrener and Ference (in that order) played the majority of your difficult minutes 5 on 5 (Regehr got the love, those guys did the work and did a darn good job of it). Leopold was after those 5 in terms of playing tough minutes 5 on 5 during the regular season.

In the Oilers case it was Smith, Brewer, Staois, Ulanov, Cross, Semenov, Bergeron, Ferguson in that order.

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08-05-2005, 05:10 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Ok you read this brutal comparison over and re-ask that question again to yourself.
There's no question there...

And what is so brutal about it?

Are you going to actually attempt to contribute something, or is this the extent of your posting?

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08-05-2005, 05:14 PM
  #82
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^ nah, all im saying is Smith/Lydman great comparison

btw flames easily have a top 10 blueline in the league if not top 5, how are the oilers equal when they arent even top 10.

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08-05-2005, 05:15 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Ok you read this brutal comparison over and re-ask that question again to yourself.
What is so brutal about the comparison? Unlike some of the other ones being made, I think those are pretty accurate.

I have long been a fan of both Warrener and Staios, there is not one of them that I would rather have on my team over the other. They bring different things to the table, but I think they are pretty damn equal.

I see no problem with the Smith/Lydman one either.

What part is brutal?

Or are you of the opinion that:
Any Flame > Any Oiler (excluding Pronger)?

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08-05-2005, 05:17 PM
  #84
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Sutter definetaly played his defensemen differently than it appearred, he certainly played the younger guys the easiest minutes, BTW I fully expect Phaneuf to get extremely soft minutes next year and Ference will continue to be insanely underpaid.

Still the biggest problem I have with the Oilers is experience, they really need to pick up a guy or two that has won a cup and knows what it takes, Peca and Pronger and great leaders, superb, but the Oilers bottom six is quite inexperienced, even in relation to Calgary's, mostly because of Yelle and McCarty, the Oilers could use a couple cats like them IMO.

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08-05-2005, 05:18 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glimradnor

I see no problem with the Smith/Lydman one either.

What part is brutal?
they dont even play the same style game (ask any flames fan this). if anything Smith is like Warriner, and Staois to Lydman.

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08-05-2005, 05:20 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
Sutter definetaly played his defensemen differently than it appearred, he certainly played the younger guys the easiest minutes, BTW I fully expect Phaneuf to get extremely soft minutes next year and Ference will continue to be insanely underpaid.

Still the biggest problem I have with the Oilers is experience, they really need to pick up a guy or two that has won a cup and knows what it takes, Peca and Pronger and great leaders, superb, but the Oilers bottom six is quite inexperienced, even in relation to Calgary's, mostly because of Yelle and McCarty, the Oilers could use a couple cats like them IMO.
IMO Edms bottom 6 dont even compare to Cgys.

Yelle to what, stoll? lol no thanks.

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08-05-2005, 05:47 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
they dont even play the same style game (ask any flames fan this). if anything Smith is like Warriner, and Staois to Lydman.
What does it matter what style of game they play?

It's the results that count, not the style of game.

Both guys get the routinely tough minutes, and both guys do a great job at it. Lydman does it with more offense and defensive finesse, Smith does it with more physical play.

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08-05-2005, 05:51 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
IMO Edms bottom 6 dont even compare to Cgys.

Yelle to what, stoll? lol no thanks.
Moreau-Reasoner-Pisani

Harvey (or one of Rita, Winchester, whatever) - Stoll - Laraque.

Calgary's bottom 6 got out-scored at a huge rate, the Oilers bottom 6 out-scored at a huge rate.

These are just facts... I don't see what the debate is.

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08-05-2005, 05:57 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
What does it matter what style of game they play?
WHAT kind of a question is this? of course the ****ing style of play comes into it. you can't compare guys like kariya to iginla because they approach the game completely differently. are you ****ing kidding me?

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08-05-2005, 06:03 PM
  #90
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This is the way I see it (as an Oil fan):

Offense: Calgary peaks far higher than Edmonton, but Edmonton has a slight edge on the overall average.

Defense: Edmonton peaks far higher than Calgary, but Calgary has a decidely better average.

Goaltending: Have to go with Calgary until the Conkkanen hydra can show that he can do it with consistency.

Coaching: it's a wash, imo.

So, as they currently sit, I think the Flames get the prize.


BUT

Assuming that Lowe is able to acquire the impact, offensive forward he is after, and Conkkanen plays well, I think they are dead even. Strengths in different areas, but dead even, nonetheless.

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08-05-2005, 06:03 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
Sutter definetaly played his defensemen differently than it appearred, he certainly played the younger guys the easiest minutes, BTW I fully expect Phaneuf to get extremely soft minutes next year and Ference will continue to be insanely underpaid.
For sure... and Lydman will continue to be considered a disappointment because his offense isn't there, despite the fact that if Sutter considered moving him, he'd have offers from 30 different teams.

Quote:
Still the biggest problem I have with the Oilers is experience, they really need to pick up a guy or two that has won a cup and knows what it takes, Peca and Pronger and great leaders, superb, but the Oilers bottom six is quite inexperienced, even in relation to Calgary's, mostly because of Yelle and McCarty, the Oilers could use a couple cats like them IMO.
I dunno... Yelle is solid, but it's not like he contributed much to Colorado's cup wins (those were on horses like Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, etc...). Same with McCarty. He scored a couple of big goals back in 1997, but since then he wasn't really much of a factor in Detroit.

I mean, Peca was an integral part of Buffalo's cup run. Even though Buffalo lost, he was far more important to their success than Yelle was to Colorado's. These kinds of guys can get over-rated in a sense. I mean a guy like Mark Messier is out there, he's won a bunch of cups, but there's no way I want him on my team anymore. Guys who were key parts in a cup win or finalist (i.e. a Modin, Conroy) those are guys that I think make a difference in this regard. The guys that really needed to make a difference in the playoffs are the guys you really want.

What guys like Yelle and McCarty bring aren't worth much more than what many others bring. Not to say they are bad players, but results wise, I'm perfectly happey with Reasoner and Moreau.

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08-05-2005, 06:05 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanlambert
WHAT kind of a question is this? of course the ****ing style of play comes into it.
Why? The role they play is far more important than their style. The results they get are far more important than the way they get them.

All things being equal, style doesn't mean a thing.

Quote:
you can't compare guys like kariya to iginla because they approach the game completely differently. are you ****ing kidding me?
I certainly can compare them. They are both 1st line wingers. Iginla is much better and I'd rather have him on my team.

Not sure what the issue is.

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08-05-2005, 06:13 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Moreau-Reasoner-Pisani

Harvey (or one of Rita, Winchester, whatever) - Stoll - Laraque.

Calgary's bottom 6 got out-scored at a huge rate, the Oilers bottom 6 out-scored at a huge rate.

These are just facts... I don't see what the debate is.
You're talking about a Flames bottom-6 that went through a special edition of Extreme Makeover, since the beginning of the last season.

Something like this might be on the 3rd and 4th lines, on some nights:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hunter74
Simon/Yelle/Donovan
Nilson/Wiemer/McCarty
Yelle and Donovan were the only members of this group, who started the '03-'04 season. Simon and Nilson were March trade deadline acquisitions, Wiemer was signed last summer and McCarty was just signed. This will be a radically different bunch of checkers/energy guys. Although it must be said, my approach would be to put Simon on the 2nd line to make opponents think twice about taking liberties with Lombardi's head, and to maintain the chemistry Donovan and Nilson established in the playoffs.

Now you can compare apples to apples. Let's assume this, for argument's sake:

Quote:
Moreau-Reasoner-Pisani
Harvey (or one of Rita, Winchester, whatever) - Stoll - Laraque
vs.:

Quote:
Simon/Yelle/Donovan
Nilson/Wiemer/McCarty
Not so sure that your boys are clearly better, other than the fact that you like your team more, which is all fine and dandy. You just need to convince the jury.

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08-05-2005, 06:25 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
I dunno... Yelle is solid, but it's not like he contributed much to Colorado's cup wins (those were on horses like Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, etc...). Same with McCarty.
Yes, of course neither guys had any impact whatsoever on thier teams cup runs.

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08-05-2005, 07:56 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Yes, of course neither guys had any impact whatsoever on thier teams cup runs.
You haven't given any reasoable debate in this whole thread, other than throw out highly debatable sentences left and right.

Either you don't understand Dawgbone's last post, or you are just being rather ignorant.
Of course the players you talk about had an impact, but very minor, as they weren't the cog in whether their teams won or not.

Same as last year. Yelle wasn't even close to being the key player in Calgary's run.

The guys in my opinion that were. Iginla, Gelinas, and Conroy. One can argue defence and or goaltending, but IMO as a unit they played pretty much the same way they had all season.

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08-05-2005, 08:04 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
For sure... and Lydman will continue to be considered a disappointment because his offense isn't there, despite the fact that if Sutter considered moving him, he'd have offers from 30 different teams.



I dunno... Yelle is solid, but it's not like he contributed much to Colorado's cup wins (those were on horses like Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, etc...). Same with McCarty. He scored a couple of big goals back in 1997, but since then he wasn't really much of a factor in Detroit.

I mean, Peca was an integral part of Buffalo's cup run. Even though Buffalo lost, he was far more important to their success than Yelle was to Colorado's. These kinds of guys can get over-rated in a sense. I mean a guy like Mark Messier is out there, he's won a bunch of cups, but there's no way I want him on my team anymore. Guys who were key parts in a cup win or finalist (i.e. a Modin, Conroy) those are guys that I think make a difference in this regard. The guys that really needed to make a difference in the playoffs are the guys you really want.

What guys like Yelle and McCarty bring aren't worth much more than what many others bring. Not to say they are bad players, but results wise, I'm perfectly happey with Reasoner and Moreau.
Fair enough, I agree, in terms of results on the ice I wouldn't say their was much difference between a line of Wiemer/Yelle/McCarty or Moreau/Reasoner/Pisani, infact, RPM would definetaly post better offense results, but the diffference would be in the lockerroom I think, but I put a high premium on leadership and experience I guess, that may be just me.

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08-05-2005, 08:16 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltalk
The guys in my opinion that were. Iginla, Gelinas, and Conroy. One can argue defence and or goaltending, but IMO as a unit they played pretty much the same way they had all season.
The two key players were Iginla and Kiprusoff. Strong team defense and hard work were the key concepts. Conroy had an off-year (at least, by his Calgary standards) and was hampered by injury, during the playoffs. Gelinas elevated his play in the post-season, but was not a huge part of the team during the regular season.

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08-05-2005, 08:33 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
The two key players were Iginla and Kiprusoff. Strong team defense and hard work were the key concepts. Conroy had an off-year (at least, by his Calgary standards) and was hampered by injury, during the playoffs. Gelinas elevated his play in the post-season, but was not a huge part of the team during the regular season.
Is what I was referring to.

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08-05-2005, 08:33 PM
  #99
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Congratulations to Dawgbone and OMA for some civil and intelligent debate. As for the rest of this thread...

Please, if you're just going to make asinine comments, atleast have something to back them up other than "that guy looks really good because he can skate so fast and moev his hands relaly guud too!"

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08-05-2005, 09:08 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Yes, of course neither guys had any impact whatsoever on thier teams cup runs.
I'm just curious if you can manage more than a 2 line response... it would really help to move this discussion along in a manner actually worthy continuing.

Provide something, anything, that even resembles a logical argument... just for the sake of everyone here.

There's a clear level of guys who can contribute, and guys who just like to make a post count... be one of the former, not the latter.

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