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Is EDM a better team than us, now that they have Pronger and Peca?

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Old
08-05-2005, 08:21 PM
  #101
dawgbone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
You're talking about a Flames bottom-6 that went through a special edition of Extreme Makeover, since the beginning of the last season.

Something like this might be on the 3rd and 4th lines, on some nights:

Yelle and Donovan were the only members of this group, who started the '03-'04 season. Simon and Nilson were March trade deadline acquisitions, Wiemer was signed last summer and McCarty was just signed. This will be a radically different bunch of checkers/energy guys. Although it must be said, my approach would be to put Simon on the 2nd line to make opponents think twice about taking liberties with Lombardi's head, and to maintain the chemistry Donovan and Nilson established in the playoffs.
Granted... but that's still 4 out of the 6 guys you had at the end of last year (your results didn't change much at the end of the season on your bottom lines). You also have McCarty and Weimer.

McCarty was part of the often talked about, but rarely doing much, Draper-Maltby-McCarty line in Detroit. Their "shutdown" line did very little shutting down againt worth-while competition. This was the one year Draper actually didn't deserve the Conn-Smythe, because he wasn't the guy getting the marquee matchups. Weimer certainly wasn't getting the tough matchups in Minnesota (or the Island) either.

What you got weren't guys who outscore. They are guys who wear down. Put them with Iginla and they will collect +/-'s off him. Alone, they aren't going to contribute to your team's outscoring (especially if they get caught out there against a good line).

What they will do though, is wear down other teams, which is invaluable for the playoffs. Split the first couple of games (get Iggy and Kipper to win them for you), and by games 5-7, you've worn the other team down. It worked on the 3 Western conference teams, but Tampa just had too many game breakers for it to work on them.



Quote:
Now you can compare apples to apples. Let's assume this, for argument's sake:



vs.:



Not so sure that your boys are clearly better, other than the fact that you like your team more, which is all fine and dandy. You just need to convince the jury.
There's no convincing people who don't want to be convinced. The Oilers were a significantly better 5 on 5 team than Calgary, Minnesota and Detroit. Where Calgary beat them was on special teams, where it's mainly guys like Iginla on the PP, and Kipper in net. The bottom 6'ers had very little impact on that (When Kipper was out, your pk was about 81%, which would have been near the bottom of the league).

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Old
08-05-2005, 09:52 PM
  #102
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How about this...

Take away 2 guys from each team (Iginla and Kipper, Pronger and Smyth?). Who's got the better team now (a way to look at depth and balance).

Or, last season, at the start of the year, who had the better team on paper (pre-Kipper, 7 year playoff absence and counting for the Flames, Salo and Isbister hadn't funked out yet for the Oil). Did anyone here, save for the homers, actually think Calgary was 5 points better than the Oil?

I think the Oilers are much improved, but the league wont take them very seriously. I think the Flames are a bit improved, but other teams will be gunning for them this season. Result, they will be tied with 96 points, and will have to play a 1 game pre-playoff game to determine playoff seeding.

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08-05-2005, 10:00 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
The Oilers were a significantly better 5 on 5 team than Calgary, Minnesota and Detroit.
I worked it out a few months ago and posted it (maybe a year ago or something) and the oilers were one of the better teams in the league 5on5. Just shows how bad their special teams were.

So the depth is there, the scoring is there, the PP qb wasnt there and the defence/goaltending wasnt there. This year, they seem to all be there, so theres reason to be optimistic.

Anyone who thinks one of these teams is significantly better than the other is wearing their homer badge loud and proud on their arm.

Of course, the last time the Flames signed a goalie long term, what happened?

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Old
08-06-2005, 08:50 AM
  #104
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Maybe it's just me, but on the whole, getting within one goal of the Holy Grail is more impressive than finishing 6 points (does it really matter if it was 6, 16 or 26?) out of the hunt. The Flames were projected by many "experts" to be at, or near, the bottom of the conference. Simply qualifying for the playoffs was a major accomplishment. Having slapped down 100-point teams on pure determination and hard work, with less talent, was absolutely incredible. Yet, there are still bitter and jealous Oilers fans, who feel they can make themselves feel better about themselves by trying to rationalize that the Oilers are always superior in some way. This was no different from each round last year. Canucks, Red Wings and Sharks fans would infiltrate this board to tell us all how much the Flames sucked. Naturally, they all disappeared later.

Some roster tinkering is still going to take place for both squads. The debate is deteriorating into "well last year..." or arguing about what things look like on paper.

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08-06-2005, 09:36 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
Maybe it's just me, but on the whole, getting within one goal of the Holy Grail is more impressive than finishing 6 points (does it really matter if it was 6, 16 or 26?) out of the hunt.
At the end of the day, the only goal is winning the cup. I'd rather be the worst team (Penguins) right now - I think that they are alot closer than either the Flames or the Oilers.

Grant you, not alot of low payroll teams ride a great goaltender and scorer into a game seven Stanley cup final - so yeah, I'll give you that it's impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
The Flames were projected by many "experts" to be at, or near, the bottom of the conference. Simply qualifying for the playoffs was a major accomplishment. Having slapped down 100-point teams on pure determination and hard work, with less talent, was absolutely incredible. Yet, there are still bitter and jealous Oilers fans, who feel they can make themselves feel better about themselves by trying to rationalize that the Oilers are always superior in some way. This was no different from each round last year. Canucks, Red Wings and Sharks fans would infiltrate this board to tell us all how much the Flames sucked. Naturally, they all disappeared later.
Your generalized opinion about Oiler (and Nuck, and Wing, and...) fans is well known.

I didn't believe that the Flames suck. Still don't - I would take the current Flames team over the current Oilers team today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
Some roster tinkering is still going to take place for both squads. The debate is deteriorating into "well last year..." or arguing about what things look like on paper.
The biggest advantage that Calgary has is Sutter - last season, he circled the BOA games on the calendar for the players, and informed them that if they won those games, they would make the playoffs. They did.

This year, the role of underdog is reversed. Should make for interesting games.

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08-06-2005, 10:22 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
For sure... and Lydman will continue to be considered a disappointment because his offense isn't there, despite the fact that if Sutter considered moving him, he'd have offers from 30 different teams.
On that topic DB, do you have these stats for Calgary's defensemen, but with a home/away split?

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08-06-2005, 11:06 AM
  #107
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As requested, here is a liberated post from another board that takes this debate head on in an analtic nature.

There has been a lot of talk as to how good the Oilers are and how good the Flames are, and now who is better. So I think a comparison is needed to finally put the issue to bed. And not just a head to head player comparison, but a SWOT and a needs analysis from before and after the UFA signings.

After the 2003-04 season the SWOT analysis would look something like this IMO.

Strengths:

Calgary… great defense, tough team, great goaltending

Edmonton… great skating team, depth in the organization

Weaknesses:

Calgary… no serious second line scoring threat, organizational depth

Edmonton… weak down the middle, small at key positions, need upgrades on the blueline in the top four, goaltending

Opportunities:

Calgary… Dion Phaneuf.

Edmonton… Jeff Woywitka, Doug Lynch, the retirement of Tommy Salo

Threats:

Calgary… the clock striking twelve on Cinderella, economics, Jarome Iginla not resigning

Edmonton… Tommy Salo retirement, economics, a talent gap in the organization

After the 2003-04 season both teams had some deficiencies to attend to, some more pressing than the others. Here’s where I saw those deficiencies.

Calgary:

1) A puck moving defenseman with the ability to be the main guy on the power play. Doesn’t need to eat up the minutes during a game, but does need to provide some offense on the power play. This is not a critical need, but more of a desire.
2) A top six forward to provide scoring on the second line. This was clouded a bit with the injury to Lombardi, as the need for a second line center may have developed as well. This is a critical need if the team hopes to take the next step.
3) Depth on the farm. This is an on going need for every team but exposed greatly for the Flames by the launch of the Omaha Knights.

Edmonton

1) A top pair defenseman. Brewer was all by himself as a true top pair defenseman and it really showed.
2) Help at center. The Oilers are extremely weak at center and need a couple of guys to provide some stability at the position. Two centers with some size would fill a huge hole in the system.
3) Goaltending, goaltending and more goaltending. They need a number one goaltender to carry the mail.

Both teams have changed since hockey was last played. Edmonton lost Petr Nedved, Mike York, Eric Brewer, Brad Isbister, Adam Oates, Scott Ferguson, and Jason Chimera. They added Chris Pronger, Mike Peca and Todd Harvey. Calgary lost Craig Conroy, Dean McAmmond, Oleg Saprykin, Denis Gauthier, Kryztof Oliwa and Dave Lowry. They added Daymond Langkow, Tony Amonte, Darren McCarty, Jason Weimer and Byron Ritchie. A lot of change. But what about the needs, how do they look?

Calgary:

A puck moving defenseman with the ability to be the main guy on the power play. Doesn’t need to eat up the minutes during a game, but does need to provide some offense on the power play. This is not a critical need, but more of a desire.

Still hanging out there. IMO this is an area where the Flames need a player, and now. A player like Jason Wooley would be a fine signing in this regard. He doesn’t need to put in a ton of minutes, but must perform on the PP. This one could come to fruition as the Flames fill out the roster. At present it is still hanging out there, but not critical.

A top six forward to provide scoring on the second line. This was clouded a bit with the injury to Lombardi, as the need for a second line center may have developed as well. This is a critical need if the team hopes to take the next step.

Mission accomplished. Tony Amonte is a bonified second line scoring threat. To properly utilize him though I believe that they need to find another center and not count on Matthew Lombardi to be that guy. I think that the Flames would be best served finding a center for Iginla and allow Langkow to play with Amonte. That would best serve the team and make them even stronger IMO. But as the need goes, it has been filled.

Depth on the farm. This is an on going need for every team but exposed greatly for the Flames by the launch of the Omaha Knights.

As I mentioned, this is an ongoing challenge for all NHL teams, and the Flames are no different. Sadly it will really show as the Flames have little on the farm to call up. The organizational depth is limited to four or five players. This could be an issue during the season, but likely not a pressing one.

Edmonton

A top pair defenseman. Brewer was all by himself as a true top pair defenseman and it really showed.

Edmonton fans will argue that this goes away with the addition of Chris Pronger, but in reality it does not. Chris Pronger is an upgrade over Brewer, but he is just taking Eric Brewer’s position. If the Oilers had just acquired Pronger they would have filled the hole in spades, but they gave up their number one defenseman to get another. The need still remains. The Oilers still need another top pair defenseman to force the talent down the roster where it should be. To make the situation worse, two of the players the Oilers were counting on to develop into top four defensemen to solve this problem internally were traded away with Brewer to get Pronger. The problem is now worse than it ever was as internal help in this regard is still three years away at best. The opportunity they did have has gone by the way side.

Help at center. The Oilers are extremely weak at center and need a couple of guys to provide some stability at the position. Two centers with some size would fill a huge hole in the system.

The Oilers acquired Mike Peca, but in doing so cost them another center in Mike York. Like the defense situation they did the exact same thing here. They gave up their best centerman to get another one. Now Peca plays bigger than York, but he doesn’t score as often. As well, Peca is even more injury prone than Mike York, so this is a risky gamble on multiple fronts. The problem is still there. The Oilers are still weak at center and need at least one guy with size to fill the hole, even if that one guy is an injury prone Eric Lindros.

Goaltending, goaltending and more goaltending. They need a number one goaltender to carry the mail.

The Oilers have done nothing at this position. The issue is still there, and with the growing expectations on the team that need will be even more evident.


Overall Snapshot

Calgary is in an interesting position. They have some holes, but they are small and considered areas of improvement. They have players internally that could fill the rolls in question, but a proven commodity is always a better way to go until the internal players prove their ability. The players that need to be added are available and should come cheaply. Overall the Flames can enter the season with one major need (a PP specialist on the blueline).

Edmonton is in the same position they were in. The same question marks are hanging out there. They upgraded their number one defender and brought in a heart and soul guy but gave away offense to do so, but the fact remains that players at these same positions were given up to acquire the two new players. From a bottom line numbers perspective, there is little change. The same holes exist and are still at key positions.

Which team is better off? Frankly I would rather be in the Flames position.

Back to your regularly scheduled battle of mental midgets.


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Old
08-06-2005, 11:52 AM
  #108
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This board is clear evidence how the new CBA will fix the NHL.

Look at us two cities going at it! Can't wait for the games to start. Feels like of old again.

Anyways, i first want to thank those oiler fans who understand reality. For the rest of you, perhaps you should take off your pronger/peca goggles and look at your team again.

Yes, I stress the team part because maybe the oilers look a tad better in some areas on a piece of a paper but it all comes down to playing the game on ice.

Edmonton still lacks the size and grit that Calgary has upfront. And normally, Edmonton's fast forwards could be able to take advantage of this except our forwards are quite quick as well. Despite adding Peca to the Oilers, there is still some missing work ethic that Calgary possesses far over the Oilers.

On defence, edmonton made a huge upgrade with pronger that will bolster both the offensive and defensive production from their backend. However, the depth is weak in the Oilers D and thats where Calgary reigns supreme.

On overall team play, Calgary enforces a tough gritty forcheck like the Oilers but Calgary has the additional fortitude to backcheck aggressively and help out the D. That is why Calgary's overall defense was vastly improved last year.

I cant say much about special teams yet cuz this is more a coaching thing than just having skills (which both teams are about equal - Peca sorely helps out the Oilers PK).

So overall.. its about the team. Calgary has kept its team from the Stanley Cup run and made some additions. We've upgraded our offence and our younger players are about to step up and take a serious lead on the team. This should only mean a better record this year. Losing Gelinas will hurt in the playoffs but for the regular season when Calgary plays Edmonton, Calgary has the advantage as a better team.

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Old
08-06-2005, 12:27 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor
Grant you, not alot of low payroll teams ride a great goaltender and scorer into a game seven Stanley cup final - so yeah, I'll give you that it's impressive.
It did have a precedence. The '99 Sabres had even better goaltending, but the sniper didn't bring quite as much to the table.

Hasek > Kiprusoff
Satan < Iginla

Take away Hasek, Satan, Peca and maybe Zhitnik, and they were a glorified Rochester Amerks. Incidentally, Martin Rucinsky said that they were an average team with a great goalie. He took plenty of flack for it, from the Buffalo media, but he was essentially correct. (Having won a gold medal with Hasek, the previous winter, made Rucinsky very familiar with that level of goaltending.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by victor
Your generalized opinion about Oiler (and Nuck, and Wing, and...) fans is well known.
It's not to generalize on all fans (there are obviously plenty of intelligent and reasonable members of those fans bases) of the aforementioned teams, it was based on comments posted here and on the main boards. Dozens of these types of posts appeared.

"Iginla's a one-year wonder."
"Donovan's a 4th liner."
"Kiprusoff's a 3rd stringer."
"Kiprusoff's a one-year wonder."
"They're this year's Carolina and Anaheim."

Anytime these types of comments received a rebuttal, the poster would either remain silent or get defensive and more billigerent, never really elaborating. For whatever reason, the Flames inspired a lot of hostility. The irony is that, even for those who didn't follow them, it was a fun team to watch. (Oh yes, there were bandwagon jumpers.)

To be fair, a few Oilers fans stopped by to wish the team well, and said that they would like to see the team win it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victor
I didn't believe that the Flames suck. Still don't - I would take the current Flames team over the current Oilers team today.
We also got frequently reminded of the string of finishing out of the playoffs. Still, that one run was worth watching Jeff Shantz on the top line scoring line, Chris Clark as 2nd line RW, many fans pretending that Freddie Brathwaite was anything more than a backup, the drafting of Tkaczuk and Fata, the list goes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victor
The biggest advantage that Calgary has is Sutter - last season, he circled the BOA games on the calendar for the players, and informed them that if they won those games, they would make the playoffs. They did.

This year, the role of underdog is reversed. Should make for interesting games.
Definitely, and it was excellent vindication for Sutter, after the way he got unceremoniously dumped in San Jose. Some of the factors that caused their (temporary) downfall, were foutside his control, such as injuries to key players, protracted contract holdouts, etc. The Sharks had been a trendy pre-season pick to go all the way that season. His upward trend of improving every season was amazing, but that one season was an anomoly. Unfortunately, it was likely a question of "what have you done for me lately?" by Sharks management. The timing couldn't have been better, as he was the perfect choice for the Flames job. Not only that, he was the only successful dual coach/GM last season.

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08-06-2005, 01:21 PM
  #110
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Well, there have been many comparisons, and I think the most important one, is that we are comparing an in-tact and improved, Cup finalist team against a team that finished out of the playoffs.

Some questions I would like to ask -

Pronger came from a St. Louis club that was deeper on defence IMO than the Oilers. That St. Louis club was not a better group on defence than Calgary's. Why, all of a sudden, does the addition of Pronger make your defence in the top two or three in the league, when he didn't have that effect where he previously played?

Some Oiler fans are suggesting that the Oil is deeper offensively, because they have more 20 goal scorers. A few things have skewed the number of 20 goal scorers on the Flames however. First, Reinprecht was injured for most of the year. He has consistently scored close to 20, and the way he was performing, suggested he was well on his way to scoring 20 prior to his injury. The Flames added three players later in the year, who were on pace for at least 20, and sometimes more goals, in Nilson, Simon and Nieminen. When you compare the number of potential 20 goals scorers (and we do after all, have to compare potential here since the season hasn't started and injuries can happen to the Oilers as well as the Flames) the Flames can match Edmonton with ease. What's more, the Oilers lost one of their top offensive players when Nedved went to the Dawgs.

As far as the addition of an Amonte to the Flames, I believe his presence is seriously underrated. He could well provide the Flames with the depth they have needed to establish a second scoring line. This cannot be stressed enough. This is the point when teams turn the corner in respect to offensive output. Add to this, that the best years Amonte ever had, he was playing for Sutter. (I wonder if that is also one of the reasons why he chose the Flames). Two line teams flourish offensively. The Flames have added that potential - have the Oilers?

And finally, someone mentioned that the Oilers may be adding one more key piece, and that would definately put them over the top. Hold it a minute, where is it written that the Flames are done making changes? Do only the Oilers have the ability to make changes?

Overall, I would have to say the Oilers have improved considerably on defence with the addition of Pronger - enough to make them a top defensive unit - I doubt, but an improvement just the same.

Offensively, I would have to say the loss of Nedveds numbers hurt the Oilers and Peca may be able to pick up the slack, but it has yet to be seen. I have to think they are slightly weaker offensively, except some of their youngsters are more experienced.

For Calgary, I see a pretty damned good defence adding one hell of a prospect in Phaneuf, and giving up Gauthier and a few peripheral players.

Offensively, the Flames may have added a player who will spark a second scoring line. Huge benefits here - both in output and taking some heat off of Iggy. It makes the oppositions defensive specialists stretched that much thinner.

And in goal, do we really need to go there?


Last edited by abracanada: 08-06-2005 at 01:33 PM.
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08-06-2005, 03:06 PM
  #111
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Oilers fans are always talking about how they outscored us. Well its true you outscored us by 21 goals but we let in 32 less goals than you guys did.

So while the oilers as a hole were outscoring us we were doing a better job of scoring enough and not letting our offense hurt our defensive. So we scored 24 more gaosl than we let in a you guys scored 13 more goals than you let in. Looks like that extra offense that you sell sold you guys out. A major reason why we made the playoffs and the Oilers losing out despite a major upgrade in personel at the deadline.

I dont know why you guys are trying to overrate offense so much. You have to be able to create offense withouth giving up offense in order to be a successfull NHL team. Or at least thats what most would think.

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08-06-2005, 03:29 PM
  #112
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For all the emphasis on the Amonte signing, to help provide secondary scoring, there are others, who will contribute. Chuck Kobasew benefited tremendously from his year in the AHL on a line with top flight talent in Eric Staal. He should be able to replicate some of the success in Calgary. Matt Lombardi has had ample time to allow his nasty concussion to heal. Prior to the hit from Hatcher, his development has been way ahead of schedule, having replaced the injured Steve Reinprecht. He did nothing to cause a demotion back to the AHL. Both Lombardi and Kobasew should be improved.

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08-06-2005, 06:29 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Pronger came from a St. Louis club that was deeper on defence IMO than the Oilers. That St. Louis club was not a better group on defence than Calgary's. Why, all of a sudden, does the addition of Pronger make your defence in the top two or three in the league, when he didn't have that effect where he previously played?
Uhh..

Weinreich, Baron.. Backman?

How exactly do you figure that's better than Smith, Staios and Semenov?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Some Oiler fans are suggesting that the Oil is deeper offensively, because they have more 20 goal scorers. A few things have skewed the number of 20 goal scorers on the Flames however. First, Reinprecht was injured for most of the year. He has consistently scored close to 20, and the way he was performing, suggested he was well on his way to scoring 20 prior to his injury. The Flames added three players later in the year, who were on pace for at least 20, and sometimes more goals, in Nilson, Simon and Nieminen. When you compare the number of potential 20 goals scorers (and we do after all, have to compare potential here since the season hasn't started and injuries can happen to the Oilers as well as the Flames) the Flames can match Edmonton with ease. What's more, the Oilers lost one of their top offensive players when Nedved went to the Dawgs.
With ease? Plan on backing that up, or just saying it and hoping no one says anything?

Edmonton - Smyth, Peca, Torres, Hemsky, Horcoff, Dvorak, Progner, Moreau all have potential for 20 goals. That's 8.

Calgary - Iginila, Amonte, Simon, Donovan, Lombardi, Langkow, Nilson, Reichnprecht. That's 8.

Looks like 8 on each team to me, and I included the "border-line" guys on either team, regardless of my bias that I highly doubt Simon, Donovan or Nilson hit the mark. (Admittingly, I have doubts Moreau will either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
As far as the addition of an Amonte to the Flames, I believe his presence is seriously underrated. He could well provide the Flames with the depth they have needed to establish a second scoring line. This cannot be stressed enough. This is the point when teams turn the corner in respect to offensive output. Add to this, that the best years Amonte ever had, he was playing for Sutter. (I wonder if that is also one of the reasons why he chose the Flames). Two line teams flourish offensively. The Flames have added that potential - have the Oilers?
The Oilers already had that potential, there's no reason to add it. Every single player on our top two lines has the ability to score 20 goals. Smyth, Peca, Hemsky, Torres, Horcoff, Dvorak. 4 of them have done it, and the two that haven't are still very young players.

And Amonte?

He scored 20 the past 2 seasons (just barely) and he's only gotten older since then. He's going to be 36 this year! Anything more than 20 goals from him after a year of doing nothing would be absolutely shocking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
And finally, someone mentioned that the Oilers may be adding one more key piece, and that would definately put them over the top. Hold it a minute, where is it written that the Flames are done making changes? Do only the Oilers have the ability to make changes?
Look at your where your salary is, after you resign your RFA's, where's the wiggle room to add another player? And further more, what player would that be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Offensively, I would have to say the loss of Nedveds numbers hurt the Oilers and Peca may be able to pick up the slack, but it has yet to be seen. I have to think they are slightly weaker offensively, except some of their youngsters are more experienced.
Horcoff and Hemsky are far more experienced, and are both coming off of massive years oversea's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
For Calgary, I see a pretty damned good defence adding one hell of a prospect in Phaneuf, and giving up Gauthier and a few peripheral players.
It's a good defense.. but it's just that. It's not some godly defense, but it'll get the job done. Sutter's crafty, and I definetly find it funny how much credit Regehr gets for doing; well; nothing. Guys like Lydman are vastly under-rated however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Offensively, the Flames may have added a player who will spark a second scoring line. Huge benefits here - both in output and taking some heat off of Iggy. It makes the oppositions defensive specialists stretched that much thinner.
Amonte = Gelinas. How exactly did you improve again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
And in goal, do we really need to go there?
Kipper's had one season. Let's see what the two in Edmonton are capable of before we say this is a blowout, shall we?

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08-06-2005, 09:12 PM
  #114
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Amonte > Gelinas by about 15 points.

And Kipper has had one more year than Conklin has.

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08-06-2005, 09:19 PM
  #115
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Amonte is definitely an upgrade over Gelinas. Amonte will easily be a 50-60 point man.

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08-06-2005, 09:21 PM
  #116
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Calgary>>>>>>Edmonton

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08-06-2005, 09:32 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Edmonton

A top pair defenseman. Brewer was all by himself as a true top pair defenseman and it really showed.

Edmonton fans will argue that this goes away with the addition of Chris Pronger, but in reality it does not. Chris Pronger is an upgrade over Brewer, but he is just taking Eric Brewer’s position. If the Oilers had just acquired Pronger they would have filled the hole in spades, but they gave up their number one defenseman to get another. The need still remains. The Oilers still need another top pair defenseman to force the talent down the roster where it should be. To make the situation worse, two of the players the Oilers were counting on to develop into top four defensemen to solve this problem internally were traded away with Brewer to get Pronger. The problem is now worse than it ever was as internal help in this regard is still three years away at best. The opportunity they did have has gone by the way side.

Help at center. The Oilers are extremely weak at center and need a couple of guys to provide some stability at the position. Two centers with some size would fill a huge hole in the system.

The Oilers acquired Mike Peca, but in doing so cost them another center in Mike York. Like the defense situation they did the exact same thing here. They gave up their best centerman to get another one. Now Peca plays bigger than York, but he doesn’t score as often. As well, Peca is even more injury prone than Mike York, so this is a risky gamble on multiple fronts. The problem is still there. The Oilers are still weak at center and need at least one guy with size to fill the hole, even if that one guy is an injury prone Eric Lindros.

Goaltending, goaltending and more goaltending. They need a number one goaltender to carry the mail.

The Oilers have done nothing at this position. The issue is still there, and with the growing expectations on the team that need will be even more evident.
There are a lot of misconceptions here.

York was not a center by nature and he did not have the size to withstand a full season playing in a center position. He played LW a lot, and that is a position which the Oilers are fairly deep at. By trading away some of that depth in York for a true gritty center in Peca with what amounts to the same offensive production, we've already upgraded the center position. Oates did a whole lot of nothing -- aside from some very valuable face-off lecturing -- during his time here and Peca is an upgrade easily over him. Nedved was only really with us during the last part of the season and our hot streak to end the season actually started quite a bit before he arrived.

The Salo trade to Colorado is probably the best thing that happened. It gave Conklin a chance to run with the ball and he did it fairly well statistically. The acquisition of Markkanen in the Nedved trade solidified this position, and Markkanen had a stellar season in Europe during the lockout. Look for him to surprise and take the #1 job. The Flames, however, undoubtedly have the advantage here with Kipper, who is an all-star, all-world goaltender.

Woywitka and Lynch both regressed significantly this past season in the AHL. Woywitka in particular showed a hesitancy to make the first step and that is often a huge obstacle for young developing defensemen. He was by no means a lock to replace anyone on the Oilers anytime soon, and I would argue his upside was re-evaluated to being a 5-6 guy rather than a Top 4 guy. Lynch was the better prospect and I would have liked to have kept him, but he too had a subpar AHL season and wasn't a lock either to replace anyone. Pronger is such an upgrade over Brewer that it isn't even funny. He can more minutes, tougher minutes, and can actually run a PP properly. This is one of those rare cases where trading away the team's previous #1 guy (Brewer) for an all-star, all-world #1 guy (Pronger) improves the team by quite a bit, IMO. Smith is a legitimate shut-down #2. Staios is underrated and a very capable member of a 2nd pairing. Ulanov and Cross provide the veteran 3rd pairing bodies. Both were solid -- even providing surprising offensive output-- with the Oilers last season. The question marks are the young guys. Can Semenov step up? Will Greene be signed and make the team? Can Bergeron repeat his offensive production from last season while maintaining a decent defensive performance? If the answers to two of those questions are yes, this team is in good shape defensively. Otherwise, yes, there may be some problems.

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08-06-2005, 10:00 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Pronger came from a St. Louis club that was deeper on defence IMO than the Oilers. That St. Louis club was not a better group on defence than Calgary's. Why, all of a sudden, does the addition of Pronger make your defence in the top two or three in the league, when he didn't have that effect where he previously played?
Did you actually check out the dog's breakfast of crap that the Blues surrounded Pronger with on the blueline in the 03-04 season?

Quote:
PLAYER GP G A PTS +/- PIM ATOI
Chris Pronger, D 80 14 40 54 -1 88 27:27
Al MacInnis, D 3 0 2 2 -1 6 24:59
Eric Weinrich, D 26 2 8 10 1 14 23:05
Christian Backman, D 66 5 13 18 3 16 19:20
Alexander Khavanov, D 48 3 7 10 2 18 19:19
Murray Baron, D 80 1 5 6 -6 61 19:13
Barret Jackman, D 15 1 2 3 -1 41 18:15
Bryce Salvador, D 69 3 5 8 -4 47 17:28
Jeff Finley, D 53 0 1 1 -9 34 17:05
Jame Pollock, D 9 0 0 0 -1 6 15:24
Christian Laflamme, D 16 0 1 1 -3 20 12:59
Aris Brimanis, D 13 0 0 0 E 4 12:01
Matt Walker, D 14 0 1 1 E 25 11:22
Mike Stuart, D 2 0 0 0 E 0 9:30
3 games of Al MacInnis... 26 games from Eric Weinrich... 15 games from Barrett Jackman... and a whole bunch of games from deadbeats, chumps, and a promising rookie-- Backman.

You don't *seriously* feel that Pronger's supporting cast was better in St Louis than it will be in Edmonton, do you?

Murray Baron?! ARIS FRICKING BRISMANIS?! After last season, playing in Edmonton is going to make Pronger feel like he's back on the Olympic team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Some Oiler fans are suggesting that the Oil is deeper offensively, because they have more 20 goal scorers.
I think some Oiler fans are suggesting that the Oil is deeper offensively because we scored more goals despite not having a single true offensive star. Ninth in scoring-- 221 goals-- and no player with more than 23. I'm guessing that's probably the most distributed scoring in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
And in goal, do we really need to go there?
Well, why not?

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Conklin and especially Markkanen are hugely underrated right now. Compare Markkanen's career stats to Kiprusoff's career stats and tell me how much difference there really is. Markkanen is coming off a season where he outplayed Khabibulin and Nabokov in Russia.

Here's a look at Markkanen's time in the NHL:
Quote:
Rangers Goalies 03-04
PLAYER GP W L T GAA TOI SV SV% SHO TGA TSA PIM ENG
Mike Dunham 57 16 30 6 3.03 3148 1363 .896 2 159 1522 0 1
Jussi Markkanen 26 8 12 1 2.56 1244 558 .913 2 53 611 0 2
...a half goal per game and almost .017 higher S% than Mike Dunham.

Quote:
Edmonton Goalies 03-04
PLAYER GP W L T GAA TOI SV SV% SHO TGA TSA PIM ENG
Tommy Salo 44 17 18 6 2.58 2486 917 .896 3 107 1024 2 1
Ty Conklin 39 17 14 4 2.42 2085 875 .912 1 84 959 17 2
Jussi Markkanen 7 2 2 2 1.83 393 170 .934 0 12 182 2 0
... and 3/4 of a goal per game and .040 S% better than Tommy Salo.
Quote:
Oilers Goalies 01-02
PLAYER GP W L T GAA TOI SV SV% SHO TGA TSA PIM ENG
Tommy Salo 69 30 28 10 2.22 4034 1564 .913 6 149 1713 2 5
Jussi Markkanen 14 6 4 2 1.84 784 312 .929 2 24 336 0 0

Oilers Goalies 02-03
PLAYER GP W L T GAA TOI SV SV% SHO TGA TSA PIM ENG
Tommy Salo 65 29 27 8 2.71 3814 1536 .899 4 172 1708 4 4
Jussi Markkanen 22 7 8 3 2.59 1180 482 .904 3 51 533 2 3
...and he was better than Tommy Salo even before Tommy Salo started imploding.

He's been the best goalie in the Finnish Elite League and the Russian Elite League, and he's been the best goalie on every NHL team he's played on. Markkanen's produced excellent numbers in every season at every level he's played at, and he's played almost as many NHL games as Kiprusoff. I think he's already shown he can play at the NHL level, and I think he's going to have another solid season.

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08-06-2005, 10:34 PM
  #119
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IMO the Oilers are a sniper away from being the better team. Both have improved this off-season, and both should be strong teams. IMO at this point it's a wash. Last year the Flames were a better team, yeah the Oilers had injuries, and yeah the probably should've made the play-offs, but IMO they wouldn't have gotten as far as Calgary anyhow. The Flames played with the heart and tenacity of the '97 Oilers and they kept it rolling even farther. I wonder if Calgary can take the next step into a better regular season and into another strong run in the play-offs. If they do, they could be easily considered one of the best teams in the league. That said, the last 2 memorable Cup teams that came out of no-where came back down to earth the next year. IMO the Flames management have done a very good job of trying to avoid that. It should be interesting, but IMO anyone saying that the other team is so much more superior than the other is quite pre-mature. It could flat out come down to the 'tenders can Kipper keep up his amazing play, and can Conklin or Markannen play good play-off hockey??? Luckilly for both Oiler and Flames fans, we will Finaly find out!!!

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08-06-2005, 10:54 PM
  #120
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Ok, 1 thing at a time.

The defence Pronger played with prior to 03/04, did include MacInnis and Jackman for the full season, and they were not the power house you all seem to feel the oilers will be.

All these scoring Oilers - Pronger? He never even scored 20 in Junior hockey. It was 2001/02 since Peca scored over 20. Hemsky has scored 12, and Horcoff 15. In your 8 20 goal scorers you have three who have never scored 20, and Pronger is one of them.

Flames don't have enough cap left to add anyone? According to TSN they have committed 23 mill to 15 players (Including Iggy and Langkow) and they have about 16 mill left for an additional 8 players. Yes, they will run out of cap room if they agree to pay everyone left 2 Million each. In addition, trades create more opportunities.

Writing off Amonte, is also ridiculous. Check out the Flyers board and what they say about him before you bury him.

As for calling the Flames defence good, but that is it - a lot of the defences you might call great, only wish they could have the Flames GAA the final year. The second best in the league. Kipper, a guy who has posted the lowest gaa ever in the nhl for a goaler who has played over 30 games, is called a potential has been, and is compared with two never have beens. Hmm, I think I will take Kipper.

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08-06-2005, 11:03 PM
  #121
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Calgary>>>>>>Edmonton

EDMONTON>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calgary

good luck signing your almighty KIPPER he will be overpaid to a long time contact that will hurt your cap space for years much like Giguere and Anahiems current situation!!!!!!!

60 days left till the season starts and a thread like this on each teams site......this is going to be a fun vear for the BOA


Last edited by Rafters: 08-06-2005 at 11:09 PM.
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08-06-2005, 11:12 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3991731
Calgary>>>>>>Edmonton

EDMONTON>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calgary

good luck signing your almighty KIPPER he will be overpaid to a long time contact that will hurt your cap space for years much like Giguere and Anahiems current situation!!!!!!!

60 days left till the season starts and a thread like this on each teams site......this is going to be a fun vear for the BOA
If I committed 6 million for five years to Pronger, I think I would be a little concerned about caps myself.

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08-06-2005, 11:13 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Ok, 1 thing at a time.

The defence Pronger played with prior to 03/04, did include MacInnis and Jackman for the full season, and they were not the power house you all seem to feel the oilers will be.
Uh, MacInnis, Pronger, and Jackman never played a full season together. 02-03 was Jackman's first season, and Pronger played only 5 games due to having his wrist shattered by a slap-shot.

Last time Pronger and MacInnis both played much of a season together was 01-02, when they were 4th in the division and had 98 points. (rounding out that group of defensemen: Salvador, Khavanov, Jeff Finley, and rookie Mike Van Ryn. Goal: Brent Johnson and Fred Braithwaite. Fearsome, huh?)

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08-06-2005, 11:28 PM
  #124
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Simons' scored over 20 once (several years ago too.. 2000), and asides from that his best years have been 16, 14, 14.

Pronger's scored 14, 14, 12 and will be the trigger man (as of now) on the Edmonton PP.

Including one is just as fair as including the other.

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08-07-2005, 12:01 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDO
Simons' scored over 20 once (several years ago too.. 2000), and asides from that his best years have been 16, 14, 14.

Pronger's scored 14, 14, 12 and will be the trigger man (as of now) on the Edmonton PP.

Including one is just as fair as including the other.
Simon scored 17 goals in 78 games between the Flames and New York, then, in the playoffs, (the hardest time to score), he scored 5 goals in 16 games. That would work out to 25 goals in an 80+ game schedule.

I repeat, Pronger NEVER scored 20 goals in his career, even in
Juniors. How is it possible to call a guy who has never scored 20 in a very long career, a 20 goal scorer?


Last edited by abracanada: 08-07-2005 at 12:16 AM.
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