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ECHL Bulls may fold -- UPD: ceasing operations 1/27

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01-21-2014, 05:26 AM
  #26
HabsByTheBay
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I went a few weeks ago when I was in town with a friend and his family and I had a blast, but the Cow Palace seems to think it's a major league arena rather than a dump in the ghetto in terms of rent and concessions. $10 Molsons was outrageous, and the food was expensive too.

Also, if you're going to hand out 2-for-1 vouchers to everybody walking in, why not just cut ticket prices in half? It's almost $20 for the cheapest seat according to the Bulls website, I can imagine that turning people off right there. If it was $10 like it actually is when you get those 2-for-1 vouchers, then you might be able to get some more people through the door.

The product isn't actually bad if you know what to expect: goals, fights, lots of serious hockey fans (I saw people in Spiders jerseys, and I had guys come and give me a Go Habs Go! when I came in my Habs sweater), and the videoboard is actually really good. I'm still totally convinced that there's enough people in SF to make a minor league team work, especially if you could get housing costs under control. They just need a better barn than the Cow Palace.

Edit: Oh, forgot that $10-$20 Cow Palace parking too. That's a real buzzkill. I had fun because I was on vacay (and back home - I grew up just a few miles from the place in the Excelsior), but it's the kind of thing that would keep me from going more than a few times a year if I still lived in the area. My friend's a big Sharks fan but as he said, for just a bit more he can go watch the Sharks.

Honestly, if the Civic Auditorium had an ice plant I'd rather put people there. At least you can get there by public transit, and homeless people are less threatening than the Sunnydale projects. Might be cheaper to rent too.


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01-21-2014, 09:22 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Sounds like it's just a matter of a few signatures and the ground will be broken.
Serious or sarcasm? I thought they were having issues buying the gun range next door.

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What would this be used for?
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I assume it would be come the Sharks practice ice.. and they want one because some tournaments have a capacity requirement for championship games.
From what I understand, which is not a lot, the tournaments is the main thing. Sharks Ice wants to bring major youth hockey and figure skating tournaments to San Jose.

A 5,000 seat stadium would be perfect.

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01-21-2014, 09:25 AM
  #28
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Serious or sarcasm? I thought they were having issues buying the gun range next door.
Serious. It's up to the city to find the land.

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01-21-2014, 10:15 AM
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http://www.mercurynews.com/sharks/ci...joe?source=rss

Sharks taking "wait and see" stance with Bulls. (IOW, they'll react to what happens, when it happens, after Wednesday's meeting.)

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01-21-2014, 10:28 AM
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http://www.mercurynews.com/sharks/ci...joe?source=rss

Sharks taking "wait and see" stance with Bulls. (IOW, they'll react to what happens, when it happens, after Wednesday's meeting.)
I'd actually go to Bulls games in Oakland. It's a ***** to get to the Cow Palace from the North Bay.

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01-21-2014, 10:43 AM
  #31
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The impact of the Bulls folding would be negligible on the Sharks. It will be easy to reassign the players they (and Worcester) have in SF to other ECHL teams.

I believe both Las Vegas and Colorado are independent so they would be an option (especially Colorado, who is the playoff hunt). Stockton is affiliated with the NY Islanders and their AHL affiliate (Bridgeport) isn't in Worcester's division, so that's a good choice too. SJ could go the other route and send them all east, with Reading (Washington/Hershey) being a possibility.

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01-21-2014, 11:36 AM
  #32
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Thunder have new arena (not one more than 50 years old). They have had a good team since day one (in part because they were a relocated team, not one starting from scratch).

Also in a rejuvenated part of downtown (not an area that you would avoid walking through).
Isn't that all of Stockton? And I was raised and grew up in Stockton.

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01-21-2014, 12:10 PM
  #33
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The impact of the Bulls folding would be negligible on the Sharks. It will be easy to reassign the players they (and Worcester) have in SF to other ECHL teams.

I believe both Las Vegas and Colorado are independent so they would be an option (especially Colorado, who is the playoff hunt). Stockton is affiliated with the NY Islanders and their AHL affiliate (Bridgeport) isn't in Worcester's division, so that's a good choice too. SJ could go the other route and send them all east, with Reading (Washington/Hershey) being a possibility.
Could they send them to CHL (not sure of viable options)

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01-21-2014, 12:16 PM
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As far as I know, it isn't. My hope has been/is when the Kings left or a new arena was built, that a minor league team would find home at Arco.
The railyards arena plan was designed with hockey in mind, but I haven't heard the same thing about the new downtown arena. I'd love for a team to be based out of Sacramento, especially one affiliated with the Sharks.

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01-21-2014, 12:54 PM
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Could they send them to CHL (not sure of viable options)
Good question...and I'm not sure. The NHL CBA doesn't recognize any league lower than the AHL except the ECHL, but there are NHL clubs with affiliations in the CHL (Central Hockey League, for those not knowing) so how that works I have no idea. If the NHLPA considers the ECHL and CHL to be equal than perhaps the rules are the same for both leagues. I do know the level of play in the CHL is about a quarter step lower than the ECHL, but NHL CBA-wise I don't know how the CHL is looked upon.

EDIT: looking at the locations of the CHL teams I doubt San Jose would look in that direction...the closest to San Jose is the Arizona Sundogs, and they're affiliated with Phoenix (in SJ's division) and Portland (in Worcester's). So they seem out. The closest to Worcester is the Brampton Beast, and I can't see the Sharks affiliating with a Canadian team.

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01-21-2014, 01:11 PM
  #36
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Just looking at where ECHL teams succeed, it is easy to see that the costs in major metro areas are prohibitive. Sports franchises, especially minor league entities, generally work on a thin line for profits and tipping the costs, whether it is housing or transport or rent, is probably the difference between success and failure. Bakersfield, Las Vegas and Stockton work. San Diego folded. SF may fold. Even Fresno got burnt. Is Sacto more like Stockton or more like SF?

The arena prices, whether it is gate, concessions or parking, are indicative of the costs associated with running the team.

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01-21-2014, 01:37 PM
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Just looking at where ECHL teams succeed, it is easy to see that the costs in major metro areas are prohibitive. Sports franchises, especially minor league entities, generally work on a thin line for profits and tipping the costs, whether it is housing or transport or rent, is probably the difference between success and failure. Bakersfield, Las Vegas and Stockton work. San Diego folded. SF may fold. Even Fresno got burnt. Is Sacto more like Stockton or more like SF?

The arena prices, whether it is gate, concessions or parking, are indicative of the costs associated with running the team.
In the 2004-2005 ECHL season there were 28 teams...any guesses on how many finished the season in the black?

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01-21-2014, 01:40 PM
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In the 2004-2005 ECHL season there were 28 teams...any guesses on how many finished the season in the black?
Alex, What is Zero?

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01-21-2014, 01:41 PM
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Alex, What is Zero?
Correct, which is why the Sharks don't own an ECHL team.

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01-21-2014, 02:54 PM
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In the 2004-2005 ECHL season there were 28 teams...any guesses on how many finished the season in the black?
Not necessarily being in the black but how far in the red. There is a huge difference in housing costs between SF and Stockton, likely better than double. I am not sure on arena rent between the Cow Palace and the Stockton arena either. The places with more seating tend to get more in rent. That's likely two cost centers working against SF.

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01-21-2014, 03:04 PM
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Just looking at where ECHL teams succeed, it is easy to see that the costs in major metro areas are prohibitive. Sports franchises, especially minor league entities, generally work on a thin line for profits and tipping the costs, whether it is housing or transport or rent, is probably the difference between success and failure. Bakersfield, Las Vegas and Stockton work. San Diego folded. SF may fold. Even Fresno got burnt. Is Sacto more like Stockton or more like SF?

The arena prices, whether it is gate, concessions or parking, are indicative of the costs associated with running the team.
I'm not an expert in this area, but I believe funding sports arenas was a big contributing factor as to why Stockton went bankrupt.

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01-21-2014, 03:16 PM
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Not necessarily being in the black but how far in the red. There is a huge difference in housing costs between SF and Stockton, likely better than double. I am not sure on arena rent between the Cow Palace and the Stockton arena either. The places with more seating tend to get more in rent. That's likely two cost centers working against SF.
Surprisingly, this is untrue. Most rents are determined by how badly the facility needs the guaranteed dates a minor league hockey team brings in.

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01-21-2014, 03:17 PM
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You mean Fresno right?

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01-21-2014, 03:27 PM
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Surprisingly, this is untrue. Most rents are determined by how badly the facility needs the guaranteed dates a minor league hockey team brings in.
That's why I said tend. There is a balance. There is a point at which the reduced rent due to lack of demand is so low as to not make it worth it to open the doors. The larger venues need more money to open the doors. I suspect the Bulls got started when the rates for the Cow Palace came down. But, how far down?

There is also the thing where the arena rent at a single venue varies with the type of performance. An MLL team playing at SAP is not going to pay the same as the Sharks or even a top line singing act.

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01-22-2014, 01:02 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/SanFrancisc...21693807898191

Bulls FB update - no cancelled games. Hope to know more after Wednesday's meetings.

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01-23-2014, 10:49 AM
  #46
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Press release (via email):
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January 23, 2014

Statement from SF Bulls CEO Angela Batinovich

Thank you for your support during this time, we appreciate all of the encouragement from our fans.

During the ECHL Mid-Season Meeting, the Commissioner and Board of Governors granted our request for additional time to complete negotiations that would allow for the transfer of the San Francisco Bulls to a new ownership group.

We are hopeful that these negotiations will be completed within the allotted time, and we currently have no intention to cancel any games.

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01-25-2014, 12:40 AM
  #47
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http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/01/23/...-to-bring.html

Thursday article on Fresno city council considering lease for Bulls to use Selland.

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01-25-2014, 01:07 AM
  #48
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http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/01/23/...-to-bring.html

Thursday article on Fresno city council considering lease for Bulls to use Selland.
I just don't understand how it is fiesable to move a team to a new city kid season. There is a game in six days... And if they do move, how am getting my money back for 18 games? This whole situation is ****ed. It's also a little fishy that this is happening right when the Bulls had a large break between games.

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01-25-2014, 02:10 AM
  #49
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Just looking at where ECHL teams succeed, it is easy to see that the costs in major metro areas are prohibitive. Sports franchises, especially minor league entities, generally work on a thin line for profits and tipping the costs, whether it is housing or transport or rent, is probably the difference between success and failure. Bakersfield, Las Vegas and Stockton work. San Diego folded. SF may fold. Even Fresno got burnt. Is Sacto more like Stockton or more like SF?

The arena prices, whether it is gate, concessions or parking, are indicative of the costs associated with running the team.
Sacramento is much more like SF than Stockton in that regard. This city would be a much better spot for the Ducks than the Bulls. Especially with the new downtown arena being close to shovel ready.




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01-27-2014, 11:49 AM
  #50
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A little more on money issues

http://www.telegram.com/article/2014.../1149/COLUMN21

"Word in the Sharks organization is that the ECHL San Francisco Bulls may not make it. One Sharks player following things closely is Chris Crane, who was with the Bulls until being called up last week.

The team was told around Christmas time that the club was running out of money, Crane said, and when he left for the AHL, players were finding eviction notices on the doors of their apartments and couldn't even get an undershirt from the equipment room."

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