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Old
02-25-2014, 12:56 AM
  #401
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If Frank Tripuka, Charlie Turner and Craig Morton are already in the ROF, I don't see much more that Manning has to do.

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02-25-2014, 01:30 PM
  #402
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It's the Ring of Fame, it's not even retiring a number. Who cares?

The Broncos have only retired three numbers (7, 18, 42). Obviously 18 was "un-retired" with Frank Tripucka's blessing. Obviously football teams need to be a little more judicious about retiring numbers given the much larger roster sizes, but some here seem to be equating Ring of Fame with a retired number, and that's just not the case.

Peyton's going in, no doubt about it. And that's fine with me.

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02-26-2014, 08:01 AM
  #403
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My question about Peyton is more about what he will be doing at the end of his career.

TV? Working with Elway? Coaching somewhere? Replacing Fox?

I think JDR sticks around for as long as Fox coaches, but I don't think it's etched in stone that he is Fox's replacement either.

Part of me thinks Peyton is a slam dunk fit for a coach, but the other part of me sees him as a politically correct upstanding business man that could make an enormous amount of dough as an executive. QBs rarely become head coaches - they all seem to go into the biz side.

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02-26-2014, 08:12 AM
  #404
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I'm not even a huge fan of Tulo, but this whole article......NY, Tulo, the Rockies suck, this is total speculation, this is ESPN trying to get a story....just....



http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10...rek-jeter-talk

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02-26-2014, 08:44 AM
  #405
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I like Tulowitzki, especially his trademark late season heroics but he so damn fragile.

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02-26-2014, 08:58 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
I like Tulowitzki, especially his trademark late season heroics but he so damn fragile.
Agreed if you could wrap him in bubble wrap he'd be the best player in the league, but he can only be counted on to play maybe 2/3rds of the games.

I'm also on the if they ever trade Tulo or Cargo I'm finding a new team to cheer for. We finally have two star caliber players, they aren't the problem. The problem is the pitching staff and management not willing to spend money to bring in players. We have to compete with teams that are willing to spend over twice as much as us, its tough to do. This is why baseball sucks, because there is no salary cap and these small market teams struggle to keep up with the NYs the Bostons the LAs of the world.

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Old
02-26-2014, 09:03 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
My question about Peyton is more about what he will be doing at the end of his career.

TV? Working with Elway? Coaching somewhere? Replacing Fox?

I think JDR sticks around for as long as Fox coaches, but I don't think it's etched in stone that he is Fox's replacement either.

Part of me thinks Peyton is a slam dunk fit for a coach, but the other part of me sees him as a politically correct upstanding business man that could make an enormous amount of dough as an executive. QBs rarely become head coaches - they all seem to go into the biz side.
Honestly I think he'll be sliding into our front office with Elway. I think that may have even been part of the deal that brought him here in the first place.

He'll never coach, well not on the NFL level, thats a hard gig to crack into, a team isn't going to hire an untested coach. I could see maybe offensive coordinator way down the line but not head coach.

I think JDR is the next coach of the Broncos and I'd love it. The 3 best all around games(outside the Patriots playoff game) we played this entire year was when he was the coach. I hope Fox retires soon and we can move on from Fox ball, its like Dan Reeves version 2.0

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02-26-2014, 10:48 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I'm also on the if they ever trade Tulo or Cargo I'm finding a new team to cheer for. We finally have two star caliber players, they aren't the problem.
I felt the same way when they dealt Holliday. Holliday was a little different because of the contract situation, but man did they luck out on getting Cargo out of that thing. If they trade Cargo, I doubt they can roll the dice twice and end up with the same caliber of return. Not to mention this situation would be different because Cargo is under a reasonable lower-than-market long term deal.

I might be up for trading Tulo though........Depending on the return because I feel the same way everybody does about his injuries. Every single time he goes on the IR we have to completely redesign the whole damn infield to accommodate. At the very least they need a dependable Neifi Perez type backup for him so the pitchers don't suffer when he's out. Even then - you don't pay a guy over $100M that requires an additional roster spot as well (solid backup) because he gets hurt so much. Whats the point...

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Old
02-26-2014, 11:05 AM
  #409
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Peyton is not staying in Denver. He's going back to Tennessee when he retires. He's said he doesn't want to coach. I'm sure he'll work in football in some capacity but I could also just see him live a quiet life in retirement.

Tulo's injury issues are overblown. Actually CarGo has missed more games due to injury in the last few years. They would never get proper return for Tulo. I'm VERY against it. There has been talk of the Yankees poaching him for years. They treat 25 other teams as their farm clubs so why not? Our best shot at having decent pitching is Butler and Gray working out, not selling our franchise player to the devil.

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02-26-2014, 11:10 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
Peyton is not staying in Denver. He's going back to Tennessee when he retires. He's said he doesn't want to coach. I'm sure he'll work in football in some capacity but I could also just see him live a quiet life in retirement.

Tulo's injury issues are overblown. Actually CarGo has missed more games due to injury in the last few years. They would never get proper return for Tulo. I'm VERY against it. There has been talk of the Yankees poaching him for years. They treat 25 other teams as their farm clubs so why not? Our best shot at having decent pitching is Butler and Gray working out, not selling our franchise player to the devil.
Why would he go back to Tennessee?

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02-26-2014, 11:10 AM
  #411
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His wife is from there. If its not Tennessee its certainly not Denver, he's not going to stay here.

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02-26-2014, 11:17 AM
  #412
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I wouldn't put money on either of Butler or Gray becoming more than a number three starter in the majors.

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02-26-2014, 11:46 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Helton4Hall View Post
I wouldn't put money on either of Butler or Gray becoming more than a number three starter in the majors.
I'd be shocked if one of them doesn't turn into a top of the rotation starter. At their talent level, the only real risk to a long, productive career is injuries.

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Old
02-26-2014, 11:56 AM
  #414
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I don't believe the hype on any of these Rockies pitchers until someone blows away the competition at Colorado Springs with a sub 4.00 ERA. A and AA is a whole different ballgame. And altitude.......

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02-26-2014, 12:00 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
I don't believe the hype on any of these Rockies pitchers until someone blows away the competition at Colorado Springs with a sub 4.00 ERA. A and AA is a whole different ballgame. And altitude.......
AA is as competitive as AAA these days. The only real difference is Tulsa is a neutral park, while Colorado Springs in an extreme hitters park. So, I have no problem believing the hype of what Butler did last year.

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02-26-2014, 12:33 PM
  #416
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Seems like for the last decade we've had a steady stream of "surefire" starting pitching prospects come through the system as either draft picks or trade pieces: Chin-Hui Tsao, Ubaldo Jimenez, Juan Morillo, Franky Morales, Casey Weathers, Greg Reynolds (woof), Christian Friedrich, Jhoulys Chacin, Tyler Matzek, Drew Pomeranz, Alex White, and now Gray and Butler. Some of these guys fell by the wayside because of injury, others transitioned into relief roles (and similarly failed), but only two of those players have amounted to much of anything for the Rockies: Ubaldo and Chacin.

I'm not going to even pretend to hold my breath with Grey and Butler. I know better, and as a Rockies fan, you should to. I like both of their skillsets and think they project well as pro pitchers, but look at the historical data for pitching prospects in this system. I hope their career trajectories shape up a little differently, but I certainly wouldn't count on it.

Back to the bigger picture, the Monforts have yet to display any of the mettle required to turn this team into a legitimate winner. They've let O'Dowd and Geivett happily build a wholesome, predominantly white, quasi-Christian clubhouse. In turn, people still go to the games because on any given summer night, Coors Field is still the best place to drink in the city. So, hey, cheers to the new party deck!

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02-26-2014, 12:37 PM
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madman View Post
They've let O'Dowd and Geivett happily build a wholesome, predominantly white, quasi-Christian clubhouse. In turn, people still go to the games because on any given summer night, Coors Field is still the best place to drink in the city. So, hey, cheers to the new party deck!


That's the spirit Rockies fans!

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02-26-2014, 12:53 PM
  #418
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I only brought up Butler and Gray because they are our best shot at star pitching. Not because they will become star pitchers but because it is our best shot at getting one. We'll NEVER trade for or sign one.

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02-26-2014, 04:31 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
I don't believe the hype on any of these Rockies pitchers until someone blows away the competition at Colorado Springs with a sub 4.00 ERA. A and AA is a whole different ballgame. And altitude.......
You will never see a star caliber pitching prospect go to Colorado Springs. That place is a hell hole for pitchers, think Coors Field pre-humidor on steroids. The Rockies know this and won't subject them to that to ruin any confidence they may have. I will be shocked to see either Butler or Gray go to Colorado Springs before joining the Rockies. They might go there after they've been in the bigs for mechanical work or conditioning but not before they get to the bigs.

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02-26-2014, 05:58 PM
  #420
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You will never see a star caliber pitching prospect go to Colorado Springs. That place is a hell hole for pitchers, think Coors Field pre-humidor on steroids. The Rockies know this and won't subject them to that to ruin any confidence they may have. I will be shocked to see either Butler or Gray go to Colorado Springs before joining the Rockies. They might go there after they've been in the bigs for mechanical work or conditioning but not before they get to the bigs.
They have to draft the star caliber pitching prospect first.

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02-26-2014, 08:17 PM
  #421
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You can't punish Karl for not having enough talent and then give Shaw a free pass because of it. If it's all about talent, your problem is with Kroenke, not Karl.

Karl never had two superstars playing at the same time, which is minimum what you need to get to the Finals. And as good of a scorer as Carmelo is, he's such a cancer to teamplay that I don't even know if he counts as one of those pieces.
At no point in this thread have I given Shaw a free pass on anything. Again, hiring Shaw has nothing to do with whether Karl should have been fired. I am not defending Shaw, I am saying that regardless of coaching situation this team was going to take a huge step backwards from last year. The roster changes and injuries alone preclude this team from winning anywhere close to 57 games. I don't care if you bring in Phil Jackson; this team isn't as good as last year's.

All of Karl's defenders neglected my point about his contract demands. The Nuggets actually wanted him to come back for the final season of his prior contract, but Karl wanted a long term extension. The Nuggets were not willing to grant that long term extension, especially with the change in GM looming. It would have been a poor decision to pay Karl top dollar for five seasons. Period. It was either fire him or extend him, and you don't saddle a brand new incoming GM with an old coach on a high dollar, long term deal.

If Shaw doesn't work out (and so far it's not), fire him. But Karl's time here was done. They did him a lot better than they did Doug Moe, who actually won playoff series here. They made Doug fire himself.

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02-26-2014, 08:19 PM
  #422
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It's the Ring of Fame, it's not even retiring a number. Who cares?

The Broncos have only retired three numbers (7, 18, 42). Obviously 18 was "un-retired" with Frank Tripucka's blessing. Obviously football teams need to be a little more judicious about retiring numbers given the much larger roster sizes, but some here seem to be equating Ring of Fame with a retired number, and that's just not the case.

Peyton's going in, no doubt about it. And that's fine with me.
That'd be 44, actually. Floyd Little.

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02-26-2014, 08:24 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by madman View Post
Seems like for the last decade we've had a steady stream of "surefire" starting pitching prospects come through the system as either draft picks or trade pieces: Chin-Hui Tsao, Ubaldo Jimenez, Juan Morillo, Franky Morales, Casey Weathers, Greg Reynolds (woof), Christian Friedrich, Jhoulys Chacin, Tyler Matzek, Drew Pomeranz, Alex White, and now Gray and Butler. Some of these guys fell by the wayside because of injury, others transitioned into relief roles (and similarly failed), but only two of those players have amounted to much of anything for the Rockies: Ubaldo and Chacin.

I'm not going to even pretend to hold my breath with Grey and Butler. I know better, and as a Rockies fan, you should to. I like both of their skillsets and think they project well as pro pitchers, but look at the historical data for pitching prospects in this system. I hope their career trajectories shape up a little differently, but I certainly wouldn't count on it.

Back to the bigger picture, the Monforts have yet to display any of the mettle required to turn this team into a legitimate winner. They've let O'Dowd and Geivett happily build a wholesome, predominantly white, quasi-Christian clubhouse. In turn, people still go to the games because on any given summer night, Coors Field is still the best place to drink in the city. So, hey, cheers to the new party deck!
If it was any other organization I would state that it's safe to bet one of Gray or Butler would become a top two pitcher. But the Rockies ability to ruin pitchers is downright absurd, and I will continue to believe they will do this until they consistently prove otherwise.

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Old
02-27-2014, 12:07 PM
  #424
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That'd be 44, actually. Floyd Little.
Whoops. You're right.

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02-27-2014, 02:33 PM
  #425
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If Shaw doesn't work out (and so far it's not), fire him. But Karl's time here was done. They did him a lot better than they did Doug Moe, who actually won playoff series here. They made Doug fire himself.
Agree to disagree on Karl, but the comparison to Moe is curious - Moe went to the semis 2 more times than Karl. Both went to a Finals and lost. Karl actually took the Nuggets to one more season of playoffs (10) than Moe (9). They're very strikingly similar, and I definitely remember Moe being pressed out of the head coaching job for his numerous one and done series, like Karl.

It wasn't until 4 years later after the Doug Moe resignation that the Nuggets made another playoff appearance, as a #8 seed defeating the Karl-led Seattle Sonics under coach Dan Issel. It was the only time Issel got out of the first round in his coaching career. There's some irony for you.

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