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Who is the worst to win the Hart Trophy?

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Old
01-24-2014, 02:29 PM
  #126
Sentinel
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I actually understood the OP as "of all Hart winners, which player was the worst at the time of the award." Career value has nothing whatsoever to do with a single season MVP victory (as Theodore conclusively proves).

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01-24-2014, 03:32 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Tom Anderson got a single 61th place vote in the dmen project and I don't expect Buddy O'Connor to get much more in the center project.
Nobody had Buddy O'Connor on their submitted top 80 list.

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01-24-2014, 03:39 PM
  #128
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Nobody had Buddy O'Connor on their submitted top 80 list.
That's what I thought, but with so many voters there are some outsider players getting one or two votes. Thanks for the confirmation.

Of course center has likely the hardest competition for the 80 spots.

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01-24-2014, 03:41 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
That's what I thought, but with so many voters there are some outsider players getting one or two votes. Thanks for the confirmation.
There are players clearly inferior to O'Connor (IMO) who got thrown a vote or two, so you can never be sure.

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01-24-2014, 04:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
He fell out with the management who then had him blocked from playing in the NHL.
Uh huh.

What I said was "he was one of the goaltenders in a six-team league", which shows that I was clearly talking about the time he was in the league, not the time where he was not in the league.

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01-24-2014, 06:54 PM
  #131
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Buddy O'Connor

On the way to training camp after his Hart Trophy season, Buddy O'Connor and three Ranger teammates were involved in a near fatal car/truck collision.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=sSli...cident&f=false

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01-24-2014, 08:36 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
On the way to training camp after his Hart Trophy season, Buddy O'Connor...
Any idea why Montreal sold Buddy O'Connor (along with Eddolls, Laycoe, Bell & Robertson) to the Rangers?

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01-24-2014, 08:49 PM
  #133
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Trade

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Any idea why Montreal sold Buddy O'Connor (along with Eddolls, Laycoe, Bell & Robertson) to the Rangers?
Canadiens traded O'Connor and Eddolls to the Rangers for Laycoem Bell and Robertson. Robertson was one of the leading juniors in Canada.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oconnbu01.html

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01-24-2014, 08:56 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Canadiens traded O'Connor and Eddolls to the Rangers for Laycoe, Bell and Robertson. Robertson was one of the leading juniors in Canada.
Ya, I thought there was some cash involved. O'Connor & Eddolls for 3 players, Rangers also parting with some $$$ no?... and how did Robertson fair?

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01-24-2014, 09:11 PM
  #135
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George Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, I thought there was some cash involved. O'Connor & Eddolls for 3 players, Rangers also parting with some $$$ no?... and how did Robertson fair?
Played in the NHL with the Canadiens, equivalent of 1/2 season while still a junior, then faded very quickly.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...roberge01.html

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01-25-2014, 05:55 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Uh huh.

What I said was "he was one of the goaltenders in a six-team league", which shows that I was clearly talking about the time he was in the league, not the time where he was not in the league.
Oh, that makes everything more clear. He was a very good NHL goalie too.

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01-25-2014, 06:21 AM
  #137
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While he probably did deserve it, Theodore's Hart doesn't impress a lot in retrospect. It was a really weak season [or era] for forwards. Markus Näslund finished second in points and Mats Sundin 4th with 80 points in 82 games. If the Flames made the playoffs that year Iginla would have walked off with the Hart, no questions asked, and he got the Pearson. And while that Montreal team was really average offensively it was pretty solid defensively in an era of defense with Brisebois–Rivet–Markov–Quintal–Dykhuis–Robidas and probably played to its strengths, a bit trap & a bit clutch and grab. And when the playoffs came around didn't Koivu steal the show from Theodore? It was a really good season by Theodore, but it also feels a bit like a glorified Jim Carey & Brian Elliott type of season.

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01-25-2014, 10:37 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Oh, that makes everything more clear. He was a very good NHL goalie too.
Other than the very Hart trophy that we're debating, where's the evidence of that?

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01-25-2014, 12:42 PM
  #139
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Could the answer to this question be Al Rollins in 1954? Definitely didn't have a HHOF career and even in 1954 didn't do anything to lift the Hawks out of one of the worst records of all-time. He won 12 games all year. The problem I have with this is that could a goalie possibly make the team worse? I will say Rollins may have been the bright spot on that team, but so is Ryan Miller on Buffalo this year, and he isn't winning the Hart Trophy. It was a strange award win. Very strange. Even looking back on history and taking everything into context I never really look at it as something justified. They should have given it to Red Kelly.

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01-25-2014, 02:45 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Other than the very Hart trophy that we're debating, where's the evidence of that?
How about managing winning 27 games and taking a pretty poor team to the playoffs in '53 or his plat for the leafs prior to that?

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01-25-2014, 04:01 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
While he probably did deserve it, Theodore's Hart doesn't impress a lot in retrospect. It was a really weak season [or era] for forwards. Markus Näslund finished second in points and Mats Sundin 4th with 80 points in 82 games. If the Flames made the playoffs that year Iginla would have walked off with the Hart, no questions asked, and he got the Pearson. And while that Montreal team was really average offensively it was pretty solid defensively in an era of defense with Brisebois–Rivet–Markov–Quintal–Dykhuis–Robidas and probably played to its strengths, a bit trap & a bit clutch and grab. And when the playoffs came around didn't Koivu steal the show from Theodore? It was a really good season by Theodore, but it also feels a bit like a glorified Jim Carey & Brian Elliott type of season.
Montreal were terrible defensively, allowing the 4th most shots in the league at a time with 4 recent expansion teams. I also wouldn't say they were solid offensively, they were 19th, 2 goals ahead of Edmonton and New Jersey. It was a pretty awful group of skaters.

In the playoffs, Koivu was tied with Audette and Gilmour for points, and I don't remember him being considered the standout performer or anything. Before he got injured it was Zednik who was getting all the attention for scoring 8 points in 4 games. Theodore had a lot of dominating games (plus a few stinkers) and was credited for completely outplaying Dafoe in the Boston series.

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01-25-2014, 04:03 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
While he probably did deserve it, Theodore's Hart doesn't impress a lot in retrospect. It was a really weak season [or era] for forwards. Markus Näslund finished second in points and Mats Sundin 4th with 80 points in 82 games. If the Flames made the playoffs that year Iginla would have walked off with the Hart, no questions asked, and he got the Pearson. And while that Montreal team was really average offensively it was pretty solid defensively in an era of defense with Brisebois–Rivet–Markov–Quintal–Dykhuis–Robidas and probably played to its strengths, a bit trap & a bit clutch and grab. And when the playoffs came around didn't Koivu steal the show from Theodore? It was a really good season by Theodore, but it also feels a bit like a glorified Jim Carey & Brian Elliott type of season.
....
Wait.

A ROOKIE Markov who clearly didn't have the anticipation or the defensive skill he'd had later on.
Brisebois (At best a 3rd D-Men on any decent team)
Rivet (overrated everywhere, glorified no.4-5)
Robidas (very young, playing on wrong side, not Top-6 material)
Quintal (good bottom pairing guy)
Dykuis (not a legit Top-6 D-Men)

And Montreal wasn't average offensively. It was simply putrid.

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01-25-2014, 04:55 PM
  #143
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I remember the 2002 playoffs.

Nobody expected Montreal to beat the Bruins and they were indeed outplayed every game, but it didn't matter -- Theodore stopped every puck coming his way. His play was comparable to Giguere a year later.

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01-25-2014, 05:24 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
While he probably did deserve it, Theodore's Hart doesn't impress a lot in retrospect. It was a really weak season [or era] for forwards. Markus Näslund finished second in points and Mats Sundin 4th with 80 points in 82 games. If the Flames made the playoffs that year Iginla would have walked off with the Hart, no questions asked, and he got the Pearson. And while that Montreal team was really average offensively it was pretty solid defensively in an era of defense with Brisebois–Rivet–Markov–Quintal–Dykhuis–Robidas and probably played to its strengths, a bit trap & a bit clutch and grab. And when the playoffs came around didn't Koivu steal the show from Theodore? It was a really good season by Theodore, but it also feels a bit like a glorified Jim Carey & Brian Elliott type of season.
Montreal was terrible in 2001-02 in every way but goaltending.

But I agree that Iginla deserved the Hart over Theodore.

The west was much better than the east that year. Had Montreal and Calgary switched conferences and schedules, Calgary would have made the playoffs, whereas Montreal would not have.

There's also a lot more luck in save percentage as compared to, say, goal or point totals.

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01-25-2014, 05:55 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I remember the 2002 playoffs.

Nobody expected Montreal to beat the Bruins and they were indeed outplayed every game, but it didn't matter -- Theodore stopped every puck coming his way. His play was comparable to Giguere a year later.
Bit of an overstatement. He played wonderful in Games 5 and 6 (1st Star both games), but looked fairly mortal in the middle of the series. Same thing against Carolina, only with a hot beginning followed by hitting a wall. Hard. Nothing Giguere-esque about it. I was much more impressed by his 2004 first-round upset of Boston and his 2008 first-round against Minnesota.

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01-25-2014, 06:01 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
And Montreal wasn't average offensively. It was simply putrid.
Vancouver: 254
...
Phoenix: 228
...
League Average: 215
...
Colorado: 212
Montreal: 207
...
Calgary: 201
...
28th: 178
29th: 175
30th: 164


They were neither "average" nor "putrid."

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01-25-2014, 06:07 PM
  #147
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there's no argument who the worst pearson/lindsay winner of all time is though, right? i'm thinking the guy who was the worst in the year he won it is the same guy who has the worst overall career of all guys who won it.

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01-25-2014, 06:23 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post
Montreal was terrible in 2001-02 in every way but goaltending.

But I agree that Iginla deserved the Hart over Theodore.

The west was much better than the east that year. Had Montreal and Calgary switched conferences and schedules, Calgary would have made the playoffs, whereas Montreal would not have.

There's also a lot more luck in save percentage as compared to, say, goal or point totals.
No, I don't think so. Look, Montreal at that time was really bad. They also lost Koivu for an entire season and hadn't made the postseason since 1998. No one thought they were making the playoffs in 2002, especially after Koivu went down. But Theodore carried that team on his back, game after game. Iginla had a wonderful year, but he started hot and then cooled down. He had such a big lead though that he still won the scoring title. But he did nothing to lead Calgary anywhere. They were nowhere near the postseason. Montreal on the other hand got in for one simple reason - Theodore. I don't think people remember just how revered he was during this season. He was supposed to be the next great French Canadian goalie. We know now how things worked out, but at the time we didn't.

No doubt about it, I'd have voted for Theodore that year, hands down. It helps that 2002 wasn't the strongest year of sorts for MVP candidates, but he still had a fantastic season and epitomized the term MVP. You really need to make the playoffs to win the MVP. Mario is the last winner in 1988 who didn't. Then again he had 168 points and the Pens were one point shy of getting in.

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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
there's no argument who the worst pearson/lindsay winner of all time is though, right? i'm thinking the guy who was the worst in the year he won it is the same guy who has the worst overall career of all guys who won it.
I am trying to think about this. Because there are hardly anything but great players that have won the Lindsay award. There are a couple that won't make the HHOF, or haven't. But that's it. Not sure there is a clear cut guy who is the worst or had the worst season but I'll give it a shot.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to Liut, Naslund and Daniel Sedin. No one else had a season that I would think was the "worst" by any means or had a career that is the worst. These three have had the worst careers so far from Lindsay winners. I guess a longshot is Lindros in 1995, but he had a hell of a year then.

So who is it?

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01-25-2014, 06:49 PM
  #149
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Hart Winners NOT Selected to 1st All-Star Team

1934
1st: Busher Jackson (17-13)
2nd: Aurele Joliat (15-15; Hart)

1948
1st: Elmer Lach, 23 (4-1-0)
2nd: Buddy O'Connor, 10 (1-1-2; Hart)

1950
1st. Bill Durnan, 21 (3-2-0)
2nd. Chuck Rayner, 17 (2-2-1; Hart)

1954
1st. Harry Lumley, 127 (57-70)
2nd. Terry Sawchuk, 95 (35-60)
3rd. Al Rollins, inc. (54-?; Hart)

1955
1st. Jean Beliveau, 151 (?)
2nd. Ken Mosdell, ? (?)
3rd. Ted Kennedy, ? (?; Hart)

1964
1. Stan Mikita, 145 (60-85)
2. Jean Beliveau, 117 (82-35; Hart)

1973
1. Phil Esposito, 226 (?)
2. Bobby Clarke, 133 (?; Hart)

1980
1. Marcel Dionne, 250 (?)
2. Wayne Gretzky, 238 (?; Hart)

1989
1. Mario Lemieux, 277 (48-11-4)
2. Wayne Gretzky, 201 (10-49-4; Hart)

2002
1. Patrick Roy, 226 (30-24-4)
2. Jose Theodore, 210 (26-25-5; Hart)


If you look at the results of Tavares in 2013 (38/179 1st place Hart votes; 13/179 1st Team All-Star votes), at least 14% of the voters today still aren't shy about electing a Hart winner who is not the best at their position. I don't know how I feel about that one. It's rough that neither the Hart nor the Lindsay can give a straight answer about the best player in a given year.

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01-26-2014, 11:53 AM
  #150
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

I am trying to think about this. Because there are hardly anything but great players that have won the Lindsay award. There are a couple that won't make the HHOF, or haven't. But that's it. Not sure there is a clear cut guy who is the worst or had the worst season but I'll give it a shot.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to Liut, Naslund and Daniel Sedin. No one else had a season that I would think was the "worst" by any means or had a career that is the worst. These three have had the worst careers so far from Lindsay winners. I guess a longshot is Lindros in 1995, but he had a hell of a year then.

So who is it?
naslund. yeah, those are the three worst guys, with a lot of distance between the third worst guy and the fourth (probably one of lindros, ratelle, MSL, or iginla).

but liut is still a top 50 goalie of all time (and he just squeaked into the HOH top 40). and i count daniel's lindsay as really an award for both sedins, and as a tandem, those two were really special for a few years, with team and playoff success to back it up-- even though i, like many other canucks fans, believe that it's always been henrik carrying the mail, even in 2011.

but to me naslund winning the pearson is like a bizarro world where pierre turgeon has his 58 goal/132 point career year in a weak season and ends up winning the award. an accident of history more than anything else.

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