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Northern Europe Norway, Denmark, Iceland

KHL teams in Denmark and Norway + United hockey league

View Poll Results: Do you think this idea is good?
Yes it sounds good! 4 30.77%
It's an okay idea/needs changes. 5 38.46%
No I don't like this at all! 3 23.08%
No opinion. 1 7.69%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-02-2014, 09:09 PM
  #1
robwangjing
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KHL teams in Denmark and Norway + United hockey league

So I was thinking, since there is a chance we will see a Norwegian team join the KHL, why not even a Danish? Because reading my other thread Scandinavian hockey league, realistic?, it seems like it will most likely never happen. And I have the idea that the Swedes and Finns are just not interested in merging their leagues with Denmark and Norway.

If I had some bigger hands in European hockey I would push for a KHL team in both Copenhagen and Oslo. Also I would have merged the Norwegian and Danish leagues with perhaps the best 5-7 teams from each league into one.

So this is how I would like to see it.

1x Copenhagen KHL team.
1x Oslo KHL team.

United (Danish-Norwegian) Hockey League.
5-7 top teams from Denmark.
5-7 top teams from Norway.

With a total of a 10-14 team league, similar to other European leagues.

As much of the talent in the current Norwegian and Danish leagues would remain, the lower number of teams from each league would make this a much stronger league in itself.

It could even take away the need for Danish and Norwegian players having to leave their own leagues to develop in Sweden, Finland or Germany. They can stay in their own league and develop.

The both KHL-teams in Denmark and Norway could work as a "big brother" for their respective parts of the league.

And if we look at a 12-14 team league, this would also increase the number of games per season, which will allow(force) players to train harder and get better.

The UHL could work with two conferences, one Norwegian with let's say 6-7 teams and one Danish with 6-7 teams. The Danish team to win the Danish conference could win the Danish gold, and the Norwegian wins the Norwegian gold. Both to keep the regular season more interesting but also to keep the old trophies and its histories. And then there is a play-off between the top teams from each conference and the winner wins the UHL trophy.

Other leagues with 12 teams:
SHL: 55 games/season
EBEL: 54 games/season
NLA: 50 games/season

Other leagues with 14 teams:
FHL: 60 games/season
ELH: 52 games/season
DEL: 52 games/season

So with 12-14 teams in the UHL there could be made up similar systems as above, with either 50 to 60 games per season.

Today I believe it's 40 or 45 games in the Danish and Norwegian leagues, so it's a big and a good step in my opinion.

Also I believe that this would increase the grass-root hockey in Norway as the second divisions in Denmark and Norway, Division 1 would also get better.

And both countries would get a lot of more media attention of hockey thanks for the KHL.

So, do you think this idea is good or not?

Ps. United Hockey League is just a random name I made up, nothing too serious.


Last edited by robwangjing: 02-02-2014 at 09:18 PM.
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Old
02-02-2014, 10:19 PM
  #2
Bank
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Okay I'm gonna be Debbie Downer. I was hard pressed due to the options. I voted bad idea And here why:

It's a good idea. In theory. But at the level some Danish clubs are run today there isn't much wiggle room. Clubs like SønderjyskE, Aalborg and Herning(Perhaps Frederikshavn and Odense to) might be able to gear up and face the increased expenses in such a league. But I'm not sure facing Stavanger instead of facing Esbjerg will drawn that much more in attendance or interest. No interest = no media attention(I know media attention can create interest but my argument is that the difference for media between drawing interest to a Norwegian-Danish instead of a Danish-Danish match would be marginal). No increase in attention = no increase in sponsors = no increase in money etc. etc. I have more faith in reviving the old rivalries internally in Danish hockey.

And this could only be done by an increase in money flowing in the league because the Danish League today consist mostly of guys having to get up to work the next day, and a game in Lillehammer is not only an team expense. It would be extremely hard to fit into a full time job at home for a lot of players. That would mean both more money compensations to the players the go along with it and a step down for some good players.

So is it a crime to let the going get tough and the tough get going? No. But it would leave the remaining Danish hockey clubs - Rungsted, Rødovre and Rungsted. The Copenhagen clubs - in ruin. That second tier would be better player-by-player than the current second tier, but it would be almost as drained for money, interest and quality training for the players. So it would be the end of elite hockey in these clubs. That will IMO hurt the amount of players wanting to start in these clubs. So you going from 8-9 clubs recruiting with help from the attention of the elite team to 5-7. That's not a step forward for developing Danish hockey IMO.

Of course my concern might be bigger because I see my favorite club put in danger - so I might be missing some big picture thing. But I think it's a bad idea because for it to happen you break the current hockey Denmark in two and be left with a smaller elite environment when in fact elite hockey should be spreading in Denmark. There is no depth in the amount of clubs with serious elite teams so talking about two competitive tiers doesn't make any sense to me. You'd be sacrificing Herlev, Rungsted, most likely Rødovre and perhaps some of Odense, Esbjerg and Frederikshavn in the name of a Norwegian/Danish League.

And if the KHL-team is to be big brother team I don't think the UHL could compete with the talent level in Sweden(Nor do I see as a problem that our best players go to Sweden). Perhaps Allsvenskan but that's seven guys.

It's a thing I'd like to see happen but with the realistic(Perhaps pessimistic?) glasses on the consequences would be to big. So for those reason I voted bad idea

Good idea though - you obviously put some thought into it And I'm very conservative on this so this doesn't represent a common opinion among Danish fans

The Copenhagen KHL-team has been brought up before. I don't think it could happen. Perhaps in Herning or Aalborg. I'm not fan - though I find it more realistic

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02-03-2014, 08:20 AM
  #3
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Haha thanks! And I can understand your concern because hockey is yet so small in Denmark, and to take away the semi-professional play for many guys to only give the best players a more professional league might hurt Danish hockey, this is absolutely true.

But since the level is so big between the bottom and the top teams in both Denmark and Norway I think this might be a good idea. Especially because the level of play in the Danish-Norwegian league will be a lot better. Could perhaps even be called a pro-league.

And I know that many Danish and Norwegians think it's good that their best players leave to develop themselves in Sweden, Finland or Germany. But if they stayed at home it would please the fans, wouldn't it? Also they would be a good resource for the league and bring the level up even more.

I think that with a KHL team also in place, the overall media coverage of hockey in both countries would increase, the media simply could not look past it, and they would have to report about the KHL. And if they write more about hockey more people will get interested. More people will also go watch hockey in the Danish-Norwegian league. Perhaps not over a night, but gradually.

And yes economics is the biggest problem, if there are no people with power and money that stands behind this then it won't happen. It's as simple as that.

But I don't think that it would cost so much more to play against Norwegian teams also. Most teams in other leagues already travel more than that. And if you take away the lower teams with no budget and only have a league with clubs that attracts better sponsors and that have a chance to increase their budgets this is no problem I think.

About attendance between Danish and Norwegian teams I have nothing to comment. I don't know how the difference would be and I simply can't comment it. Hopefully the level of play would still attract fans. I, myself, would rather watch a top Danish team play a top Norwegian team in a more equal game than to watch Danish top vs. Danish bottom team where the top team always win big.

If I look at my own situation, would I rather go to Vladivostok to watch KHL hockey or go to Shanghai to watch Asian league? The distance for me is equal, and I see no point in watching Asian league when I can watch the much better product of KHL.

So Odense is a team with financial trouble that wouldn't make it to a league like that? Yes I can understand that you are not positive with your team dropping down a level, a team that you support. And here is a big problem also, many fans would be very angry with their team being left out. It's very natural and I would too.

And thanks for your answer. I only want the best for Denmark and Norway.

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02-03-2014, 01:30 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
I think that with a KHL team also in place, the overall media coverage of hockey in both countries would increase, the media simply could not look past it, and they would have to report about the KHL.
Why? It doesn't matter if they put the best hockey team in the world in any random city, if the people don't care enough, the media won't care. The way you reason you seem to think media are some kind of charity towards hockey. With interest, comes media.

If a KHL team would make the danes care more about hockey, media will follow. Not the other way around.

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02-03-2014, 02:15 PM
  #5
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As said. A good idea in theory.

Two problems about this.

1. Several players in both countries does not have a full time job. Ergo, they would basically almost have to get that done.

2. Travel. Currently, most teams travel by bus except for a few games. And another thing that is a continuing problem from the first point, Money. Teams need to find a way to earn a lot more, to be able to handle the expenses of a lot more of the longer road trips. Then the National Federations need to make deals with hotels in each countries to keep expenses down. Seems difficult to do this, without a lot of "sugar daddys" at this point.

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02-04-2014, 12:08 AM
  #6
robwangjing
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As said. A good idea in theory.

Two problems about this.

1. Several players in both countries does not have a full time job. Ergo, they would basically almost have to get that done.

2. Travel. Currently, most teams travel by bus except for a few games. And another thing that is a continuing problem from the first point, Money. Teams need to find a way to earn a lot more, to be able to handle the expenses of a lot more of the longer road trips. Then the National Federations need to make deals with hotels in each countries to keep expenses down. Seems difficult to do this, without a lot of "sugar daddys" at this point.
1. But does this really apply for the top teams too? I thought that the top teams in Denmark and Norway were professional already. Like Stavanger and Valerenga, do their players work besides hockey? If so I am surprised.

2. Perhaps it is so, but when I look at the map the distance doesn't look that much longer. For most teams it would be longer this is true, but if they plan trips good it won't affect too much. For example to play multiple teams in the other country at the same time.

I'm glad you like it in theory. In reality is not as easy, haha.

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Old
02-04-2014, 09:05 AM
  #7
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Don't think you can find 10 Danish players in Denmark on full time contracts. I know there has been some full time contracts handed out(Believe Jannik Karvinen was on one once. Kim Lykkeskov to) but then came the financial crisis and over night the economical climate changed

But as said I like the idea. And I thought about the football version of Nordic League that existed once. The 3 or 4 best team from Denmark, Sweden and Norway meet with some robin round groups and then proceeded with semifinals and finals as a cup tournament during the winter I believe.

If some thing could be worked into the schedule of the two leagues I think the clubs could be on board with cancelling the Danish cup(Nobody cares about this) and replacing it with some version of a cup tournament for the 4 best teams from each country.

Then one group set place in Denmark with the #1 and #3 from Denmark and #2 and #4 from Norway and vice versa in Norway for a prolonged weekend(3 games). That might be a doable way to explore some of the uncertainty concerning interest, expenses etc. because this is without a doubt untraveled territory.

Than after a few years you can evaluate A) Is this just a lot of trouble for no good cause B) Is this the perfect fit C) Is there ground for extending the format.

I'm not sure if I'd prefer it but it's the best option for a Norwegian/Danish-connection I can think of. And we do love loosing to Norway so please...

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02-04-2014, 04:53 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
1. But does this really apply for the top teams too? I thought that the top teams in Denmark and Norway were professional already. Like Stavanger and Valerenga, do their players work besides hockey? If so I am surprised.

2. Perhaps it is so, but when I look at the map the distance doesn't look that much longer. For most teams it would be longer this is true, but if they plan trips good it won't affect too much. For example to play multiple teams in the other country at the same time.

I'm glad you like it in theory. In reality is not as easy, haha.
1. I'm not sure how many teams that are close to or fully professional. Stavanger would be an estimated good guess as the only team who are pro to the bone. Don't think any of the other teams are. Most of the top teams have half a squad or more who are pro's. And a decent administration and staff.

2. With the current situation, there are two teams were flights are needed. To Rosenborg and Stavanger. All other teams take buses to each other. Therefore, there would be a much bigger increase of budget when it comes to overseas-flights. Maybe "Road Trips" can resolve some of the issue, but most teams struggle to go around now. Therefore, a bigger cost will make it even harder.

This is the problem with clubs in small nations, not enough income to cover expenses like in bigger nations.

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02-05-2014, 01:36 AM
  #9
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Bank: Your idea about a Danish-Norwegian cup sounds interesting I think, at least it's a small step on the road. And as you said it might even stop there. So it could be a good way to "try the market".

SirKillalot: I'm surprised to hear that, because I thought that even Valerenga and those two other teams(Storhamar and Lorenskog?) also were so to say professional, and the rest semi- to non-professional.

If this is the case, that perhaps only 1-2 teams in each country could be called professional, then my idea kind of dies right away. Clearly needs more money.

One way to quick-fix this is to make the games in the other country as minimal as possible. Perhaps only play 2 games, 1 game home and 1 game away aginst all the teams in the other country/conference. Could be made in two trips or so. Of course it's still a lot of more money, but much less than playing a full season against them. Also it would be more boring to watch the same 5-7 teams play each other in each conference.

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04-05-2014, 10:30 AM
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I dont want to create new thread. Can anybody translate this?

http://www.bt.dk/ishockey/ishockey-m...-hockey-league

Does Denmark want to have 44 clubs in CHL instead of 40? Wild card to Slovakia, Norway?

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04-05-2014, 12:26 PM
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I dont want to create new thread. Can anybody translate this?

http://www.bt.dk/ishockey/ishockey-m...-hockey-league

Does Denmark want to have 44 clubs in CHL instead of 40? Wild card to Slovakia, Norway?
Denmark is lobbying for increasing the amount of CHL teams to 44 instead of 40, together with France. 38 places in the tournament are reserved for the 6 founding countries, with a wildcard having been given to Slovakia and Norway. Denmarks and Frances participation is determined by whether or not they can convince the founding countries to increase the amount of participating teams.

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04-06-2014, 10:24 AM
  #12
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Off topic: Why is our Cup trophy called Prins Henrik Cup?

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04-07-2014, 10:30 AM
  #13
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Off topic: Why is our Cup trophy called Prins Henrik Cup?
Maybe Prins Henrik gave the trophy as a gift?
and/or he actually likes hockey?!

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04-07-2014, 02:15 PM
  #14
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Maybe Prins Henrik gave the trophy as a gift?
and/or he actually likes hockey?!
I was gonna go with the chairmen of DBU, DIU, DHF and perhaps a few others getting called into the minister of cultures office. "The royal family has told us they wan't to be more sporty. Now: Rock, scissor, paper who get's to call their Cup tournament after Prins Henrik" - Said the laughing minister


Last edited by Bank: 04-07-2014 at 02:25 PM.
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04-08-2014, 12:19 PM
  #15
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I was gonna go with the chairmen of DBU, DIU, DHF and perhaps a few others getting called into the minister of cultures office. "The royal family has told us they wan't to be more sporty. Now: Rock, scissor, paper who get's to call their Cup tournament after Prins Henrik" - Said the laughing minister
I don't think DBU just randomly have royalty attached to a sport without some kind of approval first so they must have asked if he was OK with having his name attached to hockey.

I think having royalty attached to "mixed martial arts" or other sports regarded as "fringe" in the public might end up in the papers. "Royalty supports violence and brain injury" would be a likely headline. Have boxing ever been sponsored in name??
In former times hockey was regarded as a "goon sport" in Denmark by many, so it means it has become acceptable for having a royal name attached to it.

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04-08-2014, 02:02 PM
  #16
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I don't think DBU just randomly have royalty attached to a sport without some kind of approval first so they must have asked if he was OK with having his name attached to hockey.

I think having royalty attached to "mixed martial arts" or other sports regarded as "fringe" in the public might end up in the papers. "Royalty supports violence and brain injury" would be a likely headline. Have boxing ever been sponsored in name??
In former times hockey was regarded as a "goon sport" in Denmark by many, so it means it has become acceptable for having a royal name attached to it.
No, they only sponsor horseback riding because that isn't dangerous or anything........;-)

"Royal Supplier of Knockouts"

I still think the whole "missing tons of teeth" thing is what gives it that reputation...maybe a little warranted to be learn.

There are people in hockey who are stupid enough to think that playing without a mouth guard is an awesome tough guy thing to do.

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04-10-2014, 08:40 AM
  #17
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Maybe Prins Henrik gave the trophy as a gift?
and/or he actually likes hockey?!
I think Henrik likes to sip wine all day and dream about becoming king. Nothing else....

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04-11-2014, 01:12 AM
  #18
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I think Henrik likes to sip wine all day and dream about becoming king. Nothing else....
in his defence, That is traditionally what princes do

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04-11-2014, 06:20 AM
  #19
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[EXITS LURKING MODE]

Alright, time to post once more! For reasons stated above (economy and public interest) Denmark isn't really geared for KHL, even less a unified NOR/DEN league.

How this turned into the bashing of a member of the royal family I don't know? But as a royalist I have to speak out! (Type out?) The man is almost 80 years old, has been criticized for more or less all his time in the country by those ***** at EB and BT, but still does his work. Which isn't sipping wine and going hunting. Would like to see some of the danes that feels entitled to recieve all kind of things by the state, traveling and taking part in as much as our Prince Consort - and being so open (and funny) as he seems when talking to the people he meet! [END OF RANT]

Would guess that Henrik had something to do with DIU in the early 90's perhaps? When getting a player in the NHL wasn't even a pipe-dream!

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04-11-2014, 07:20 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by DK Rookie View Post
[EXITS LURKING MODE]

Alright, time to post once more! For reasons stated above (economy and public interest) Denmark isn't really geared for KHL, even less a unified NOR/DEN league.

How this turned into the bashing of a member of the royal family I don't know? But as a royalist I have to speak out! (Type out?) The man is almost 80 years old, has been criticized for more or less all his time in the country by those ***** at EB and BT, but still does his work. Which isn't sipping wine and going hunting. Would like to see some of the danes that feels entitled to recieve all kind of things by the state, traveling and taking part in as much as our Prince Consort - and being so open (and funny) as he seems when talking to the people he meet! [END OF RANT]

Would guess that Henrik had something to do with DIU in the early 90's perhaps? When getting a player in the NHL wasn't even a pipe-dream!
It's always the weirdest things that smoke you out of the lurking-mode Prince Henrik is now on that list. Welcome on board

And for the Prince name... There seems to no record of when or why it was adopted. One of the mysteries of life I guess.

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04-11-2014, 09:14 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by DK Rookie View Post
[EXITS LURKING MODE]

Alright, time to post once more! For reasons stated above (economy and public interest) Denmark isn't really geared for KHL, even less a unified NOR/DEN league.

How this turned into the bashing of a member of the royal family I don't know? But as a royalist I have to speak out! (Type out?) The man is almost 80 years old, has been criticized for more or less all his time in the country by those ***** at EB and BT, but still does his work. Which isn't sipping wine and going hunting. Would like to see some of the danes that feels entitled to recieve all kind of things by the state, traveling and taking part in as much as our Prince Consort - and being so open (and funny) as he seems when talking to the people he meet! [END OF RANT]

Would guess that Henrik had something to do with DIU in the early 90's perhaps? When getting a player in the NHL wasn't even a pipe-dream!
As a republican (in the word's true meaning and not what the GOP thinks it is) I couldn't care less what he is actual doing. I am sure he is a fine gentleman, but I would rather spend the gazillions of dollars the monarchy receives every year on things that are actually important for the Danish society and not some middle-age family that by birth is destined to rule over us.

Bashing the royal family is in my understanding fully allowed when we all contribute by heavy taxing, so they can live in multiple castles and a chateau in France.

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04-11-2014, 10:05 AM
  #22
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As a republican (in the word's true meaning and not what the GOP thinks it is) I couldn't care less what he is actual doing. I am sure he is a fine gentleman, but I would rather spend the gazillions of dollars the monarchy receives every year on things that are actually important for the Danish society and not some middle-age family that by birth is destined to rule over us.

Bashing the royal family is in my understanding fully allowed when we all contribute by heavy taxing, so they can live in multiple castles and a chateau in France.
Then you'd support a European Federation too? If the history doesn't matter, a European republic would make sense. Now I'm not going to change your opinion, and it isn't real the forum - but:

The royal family gets kr. 100 mil in the latest budget, plus some of the military's and police's budget indirectly (wouldn't change if they where securing a president instead). The royal family is a unifying element for (most) danes, and they help opening doors for the industry (the industry claims, I'll believe that) and they likely mean something for turism too. Let say it costs kr. 500 mil (they just tossed 1 billion after trains last week, after spending 5 billion on trains that doesn't work - just to put it in perspective!) - that's not too many trade deals and/or tourist needed to break even! Say a job in the industy gives you 250.000 a year: you pay 8% to Lykketoft (change that, please!) or 30.000, then maybe 39-40% of the remainder or 92.000 - that's 4.100 jobs to cover that expense (not counted the 25% tax for all there spending or the taxes put on most everything else. Just heard that they expect 25.000 jobs in the wind-mill industi, the royal family have played a role on the state visits to places like Japan and Korea where they look at renewable energy. 100.000 tourists spending kr. 5.000 in the country would do it too.

Now, another big part of Denmark and being danish is *****ing and moaning about everything - I do so more then the average Joe (or Jens?) - so I'm with you there! (I just did above!)

[END OF DISCUSSION! This is going way OT]

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04-11-2014, 10:19 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by DK Rookie View Post
Then you'd support a European Federation too? If the history doesn't matter, a European republic would make sense. Now I'm not going to change your opinion, and it isn't real the forum - but:

The royal family gets kr. 100 mil in the latest budget, plus some of the military's and police's budget indirectly (wouldn't change if they where securing a president instead). The royal family is a unifying element for (most) danes, and they help opening doors for the industry (the industry claims, I'll believe that) and they likely mean something for turism too. Let say it costs kr. 500 mil (they just tossed 1 billion after trains last week, after spending 5 billion on trains that doesn't work - just to put it in perspective!) - that's not too many trade deals and/or tourist needed to break even! Say a job in the industy gives you 250.000 a year: you pay 8% to Lykketoft (change that, please!) or 30.000, then maybe 39-40% of the remainder or 92.000 - that's 4.100 jobs to cover that expense (not counted the 25% tax for all there spending or the taxes put on most everything else. Just heard that they expect 25.000 jobs in the wind-mill industi, the royal family have played a role on the state visits to places like Japan and Korea where they look at renewable energy. 100.000 tourists spending kr. 5.000 in the country would do it too.

Now, another big part of Denmark and being danish is *****ing and moaning about everything - I do so more then the average Joe (or Jens?) - so I'm with you there! (I just did above!)

[END OF DISCUSSION! This is going way OT]
Just keep the OT-train rolling... How so?

To the money-savers with good ideas: http://www.hvadbrugespengenetil.dk/ Enjoy!

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04-11-2014, 10:40 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Bank View Post
Just keep the OT-train rolling... How so?

To the money-savers with good ideas: http://www.hvadbrugespengenetil.dk/ Enjoy!
No, the train has reached it's destination! But I'll give you that one on the platform before finding something to eat: Was actually Ole Stavad I meant! (Sorry if mr. Lykketoft is reading this, but I'm sure I could find reasons to dislike him too ) He was the tax-minister in 1993, and the minister always gets the blame! (another Danish trait you could say, particularly when it comes to taxes) Arbejdsmarkedsbidrag
*EDIT: Then again, Lykketoft was financeminister so maybe I can pin it on him?

Wasn't they supposed to remove that one when the economy was looking up again? Surely since 1994 we had periods of growth?

I've ranted too much for one day already - I'll step back and focus on hockey for the remained of my weekend!


Last edited by DK Rookie: 04-11-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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04-11-2014, 10:45 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by DK Rookie View Post
No, the train has reached it's destination! But I'll give you that one on the platform before finding something to eat: Was actually Ole Stavad I meant! (Sorry if mr. Lykketoft is reading this, but I'm sure I could find reasons to dislike him too ) He was the tax-minister in 1993, and the minister always gets the blame! (another Danish trait you could say, particularly when it comes to taxes) Arbejdsmarkedsbidrag

Wasn't they supposed to remove that one when the economy was looking up again? Surely since 1994 we had periods of growth?

I've ranted too much for one day already - I'll step back and focus on hockey for the remained of my weekend!
Arh that's the reference I was missing. Perhaps name the pre-season after him?

Let's see how do we close this post on topic.... hmmm... "Well at least we discussed something more relevant to the real world than the ideas of a Nordic League"

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