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Old
01-31-2014, 05:44 PM
  #51
PocketNines
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What some Ranger fans don't seem to grasp is that Stewart has to be part of the deal if it's Callahan. For one to make room, and for another because if we're renting a player we aren't renting a winger. We could upgrade a winger, not just rent one for futures.

Callahan ranks extremely meh-ically on my rental list. (which is a shame because I'm too dumb to see renting Callahan gives us the Cup)

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01-31-2014, 06:06 PM
  #52
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I think what is getting lost in this rumor, it's Army vs. Sather.....I don't know about you guys, but I think Army would take Sather to the wood shed and make him add in the rangers 1st or top prospect then sign Stewart to a max contract after a hot streak

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01-31-2014, 06:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Depending on who's picks and what draft they are in they could be used for a future deadline deal or a deal for a player that's not a UFA. I wouldn't mind adding Cally, I am not adverse to swapping him for Cally even. but trading a current player like Stewart for futures goes further than just what we could draft with the picks.
Lol obviously depending on who the picks were, that's just too obvious to mention. It it wasn't clear, I understand the argument for trading him for futures and that the pick(s) can be used in a different trade, my point was that the few games we get from Callahan as a rental can be more valuable to us than what we could get out of the trade. Here is a link http://proicehockey.about.com/od/pro...ft_success.htm to an article about how many draft picks make it to the NHL. That data is pulled from 90-99, so it is a little out dated. I was actually trying to find information that related number of games played on average to draft selection, but it is what it is.

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01-31-2014, 06:13 PM
  #54
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Let's see if I'm thinking about this the right way:

- Blues are potentially interested in an upgrade in goal in the form of Ryan Miller. Miller is unarguably better than Halak, however, it is questionable whether or not the difference between Miller and Halak is enough to hold the Blues in the games against the California teams where they get run through for a good 20 minutes before they .start playing.

- One of the Blues' major problems is their slow starts. This could be remedied by a goaltending change, but that seems like more of a band-aid. Hitch has not-so-subtly questioned the teams' drive/motivation/character/whatever as a reason for their slow starts.

- As the Blues' are kicking the tires on Miller, or in recognition of the fact that he's just a band-aid, they look elsewhere.

- The Rangers express some form of interest in Stewart and Callahan is likely to be a player coming back in that exchange.

- Callahan is having an off year, but there's no questions about his drive/motivation/character/leadership/whatever.

- Maybe the Blues' view the possibility of Callahan as the remedy for the attitudinal issues with the Blues' current roster. Someone who will lead by example and will jerk players out of their ruts. A nice and necessary complement to existing leadership.

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01-31-2014, 06:18 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corn Baller View Post
Let's see if I'm thinking about this the right way:

- Blues are potentially interested in an upgrade in goal in the form of Ryan Miller. Miller is unarguably better than Halak, however, it is questionable whether or not the difference between Miller and Halak is enough to hold the Blues in the games against the California teams where they get run through for a good 20 minutes before they .start playing.

- One of the Blues' major problems is their slow starts. This could be remedied by a goaltending change, but that seems like more of a band-aid. Hitch has not-so-subtly questioned the teams' drive/motivation/character/whatever as a reason for their slow starts.

- As the Blues' are kicking the tires on Miller, or in recognition of the fact that he's just a band-aid, they look elsewhere.

- The Rangers express some form of interest in Stewart and Callahan is likely to be a player coming back in that exchange.

- Callahan is having an off year, but there's no questions about his drive/motivation/character/leadership/whatever.

- Maybe the Blues' view the possibility of Callahan as the remedy for the attitudinal issues with the Blues' current roster. Someone who will lead by example and will jerk players out of their ruts. A nice and necessary complement to existing leadership.
This is probably the biggest idea of Army if he goes through and gets Cally. To show the Blues you gotta work to be the best.

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01-31-2014, 06:21 PM
  #56
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Dreger reporting the Rangers have granted one team permission to talk to Callahan's agent.

Imagine we could give them Stewart and our second and sign him to a deal identical to Steen's.

Would ya?

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01-31-2014, 06:34 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jeffro View Post
Dreger reporting the Rangers have granted one team permission to talk to Callahan's agent.

Imagine we could give them Stewart and our second and sign him to a deal identical to Steen's.

Would ya?
Not me. The term would be fine with me. I'd say that I would be comfortable and expecting a deal with Callahan to be for no more than 5.5 on avg, but I would really hope Army could get less, like 4.5-5. At 4.5 and relative to our team (like Oshie), he would be slightly overpaid IMO, but there are different circumstances economically and with the cap that are going to drive his price up to an uncomfortable number.

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01-31-2014, 06:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jeffro View Post
Dreger reporting the Rangers have granted one team permission to talk to Callahan's agent.

Imagine we could give them Stewart and our second and sign him to a deal identical to Steen's.

Would ya?
Steen is a first line forward. Callahan is a middle-six player with intangibles but also has serious injury concerns. I would not want to pay Callahan what they're playing Steen. I also don't see Callahan settling for less than Steen ($$ or term).

Two years ago Callahan was so good he was untouchable. But his play has demonstrably fallen off and he has a downward trend.

I truly think another team will pay more (both in extending Callahan and in assets to acquire him) and probably is more justified in taking that risk.

Guys, we are LOADED at wing now and in the future.

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01-31-2014, 06:39 PM
  #59
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Lol obviously depending on who the picks were, that's just too obvious to mention. It it wasn't clear, I understand the argument for trading him for futures and that the pick(s) can be used in a different trade, my point was that the few games we get from Callahan as a rental can be more valuable to us than what we could get out of the trade. Here is a link http://proicehockey.about.com/od/pro...ft_success.htm to an article about how many draft picks make it to the NHL. That data is pulled from 90-99, so it is a little out dated. I was actually trying to find information that related number of games played on average to draft selection, but it is what it is.
Yeah I understand the rates on which drafted players make the NHL. I just think there is validity in the futures route as well as the hockey trade or for UFA route to go with cashing in on Stewart's value.

I wouldn't mind adding Callahan and do think he would be a much more stable addition than Stewart down the stretch but if Armstrong knows that he can get more bang for the buck going the futures route in the offseason I have no problem waiting it out. Callahan is a better overall player and should be a better fit but it's not like we're talking about going from Stewart to Hossa in this deal. I am leaning more towards the Stewart for Legwand route(doubt that happens though).

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01-31-2014, 07:34 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Steen is a first line forward. Callahan is a middle-six player with intangibles but also has serious injury concerns. I would not want to pay Callahan what they're playing Steen. I also don't see Callahan settling for less than Steen ($$ or term).

Two years ago Callahan was so good he was untouchable. But his play has demonstrably fallen off and he has a downward trend.

I truly think another team will pay more (both in extending Callahan and in assets to acquire him) and probably is more justified in taking that risk.

Guys, we are LOADED at wing now and in the future.
Personally I would not add to Stewart at all due to contracts. I think Stewart should actually hold more trade value due to contracts. Callahan is an UFA with injury concerns that is having a bad season. I know you don't value Stewart much but I personally think the Rangers should add to Callahan if we were making a trade neither player is having a good season right now.

I'd just rather wait until the offseason and deal Stewart in a deal similar to the Perron deal.

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01-31-2014, 07:55 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Steen is a first line forward. Callahan is a middle-six player with intangibles but also has serious injury concerns. I would not want to pay Callahan what they're playing Steen. I also don't see Callahan settling for less than Steen ($$ or term).

Two years ago Callahan was so good he was untouchable. But his play has demonstrably fallen off and he has a downward trend.

I truly think another team will pay more (both in extending Callahan and in assets to acquire him) and probably is more justified in taking that risk.

Guys, we are LOADED at wing now and in the future.
Agreed, I'd take the swap for this year, but have to think Armstrong is smart enough to stay out of the bidding if contract talks are taking place. Great player, but not the type of 29 year old player to lock up long-term, with questionably high dollars (for this franchise). His rugged style is already taking a toll.

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01-31-2014, 08:13 PM
  #62
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Yeah I understand the rates on which drafted players make the NHL. I just think there is validity in the futures route as well as the hockey trade or for UFA route to go with cashing in on Stewart's value.

I wouldn't mind adding Callahan and do think he would be a much more stable addition than Stewart down the stretch but if Armstrong knows that he can get more bang for the buck going the futures route in the offseason I have no problem waiting it out. Callahan is a better overall player and should be a better fit but it's not like we're talking about going from Stewart to Hossa in this deal. I am leaning more towards the Stewart for Legwand route(doubt that happens though).
Agreed. I like a trade for Legwand as well.

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01-31-2014, 08:45 PM
  #63
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Agreed, I'd take the swap for this year, but have to think Armstrong is smart enough to stay out of the bidding if contract talks are taking place. Great player, but not the type of 29 year old player to lock up long-term, with questionably high dollars (for this franchise). His rugged style is already taking a toll.
Yeah I peed myself a bit when I heard his side was asking for 6 mil/7 years. I know them asking for that is just posturing, but anything close to that will end up as a Clarkson-level disaster.

IMO, the difference between Miller and Halak will do much more to help this team than Stewart/Callahan. Do we really want Callahan taking ice time away from Oshie and Tarasenko?

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02-01-2014, 09:18 AM
  #64
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hah, I love Callahan but 7y, 6mil is a joke.

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02-01-2014, 11:33 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Steen is a first line forward. Callahan is a middle-six player with intangibles but also has serious injury concerns. I would not want to pay Callahan what they're playing Steen. I also don't see Callahan settling for less than Steen ($$ or term).

Two years ago Callahan was so good he was untouchable. But his play has demonstrably fallen off and he has a downward trend.

I truly think another team will pay more (both in extending Callahan and in assets to acquire him) and probably is more justified in taking that risk.

Guys, we are LOADED at wing now and in the future.
I agree with this. It's much more important to get back a centre for Stewart than an overpaid mid-level winger. If he would sign for $4.5 million (sign-and-trade) for 3 years and the trade were a straight-up trade, I'd do it, leaving enough cap room to add the needed centre (presumably Stastny in the offseason).

His Backes/Oshie attitude might help The Blues motivationally, and his 2-way play in replacing Stewart would be a big plus. But The blues can't afford to overpay him in salary or in the player assets given up to acquire him.

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02-01-2014, 01:56 PM
  #66
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Think about it. The New York Rangers, probably the #1 NHL franchise in throwing out huge stupid contracts, don't want to give a 7x6 to their beloved captain. If Callahan would come down off that demand, especially term, the Rangers would keep him no brainer. They're not keeping him, which means his demand isn't coming down. Which completely rules out the Blues for being anything other than a rental. But maybe a team like Florida or Edmonton would offer him that kind of contract, maybe Buffalo, who knows.

Thus to us, we'd be paying a rental price to acquire him for one run. For another team who could offer that contract, the Rangers could probably get more in trade.

However, even smarter, they're letting Callahan's agent figure out who could actually work out that kind of contract. If it turns out it's nobody, then maybe the Rangers wind up keeping him. If it's somebody, then that team obviously values the player more than we would. I just don't see the Callahan thing happening unless he tells the Rangers he's definitely not re-signing and it turns out that they happen to like Stewart more than any of the other offers.

Hey, I hope that happens, as a Stewart for Callahan swap would be an excellent playoff boost. We'd probably add our 3d round pick and make it higher if Callahan re-signs, which he won't so it's moot. But I certainly don't think we're going to be that lucky.

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02-01-2014, 02:49 PM
  #67
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Rangers fans were throwing Jaskin's name around so I machine gunned the hell out of that idea before it built momentum.
This is just what I envisioned:


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02-02-2014, 03:14 AM
  #68
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By the way, Ranger fans I expect will throw a fit over this but Ryan Callahan is TJ Oshie. Both RW, both Olympic-quality US all-rounders, very similar production, Oshie is younger, Callahan is somehow more injury-prone, is downward trending compared to upward trending Oshie. Oshie makes 4.175M and Callahan is asking for 7x6, which is just stupid.

Look at their production. Watch them play and their intangibles. They're identical salary value.

We are not paying Callahan even remotely what he is asking. He'd be a rental, then he'd go play for the dreck with his cash, and most fans would forget about him because he wouldn't see the playoffs again on any team that will pay him his insane demands.

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02-02-2014, 04:39 AM
  #69
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Posted in one of the trade board Callahan threads that'll get swallowed up by time, but worth reminding everyone here:

...

Player A 2005 draft, RW, USA Olympian, incredible intangibles, every-situation catalyst

Year 1: 57GP 14-25-39-.684ppg
Year 2: 76GP 18-30-48-.632ppg
Year 3: 49GP 12-22-34-.694ppg
Year 4: 80GP 19-35-54-.675ppg
Year 5: 30GP 7-13-20-.667ppg (lockout year)
Year 6: 54GP 12-31-43-.796ppg (current)
Total: 346GP 82-156-238-.688ppg

Player B 2004 draft, RW, USA Olympian, incredible intangibles, every-situation catalyst

Year 1: 52GP 5-8-13-.250ppg
Year 2: 81GP 22-18-40-.494ppg
Year 3: 77GP 19-18-37-.481ppg
Year 4: 60GP 23-25-48-.800ppg
Year 5: 76GP 29-25-54-.711ppg
Year 6: 45GP 16-15-31-.689ppg (lockout year)
Year 7: 39GP 9-12-21-.538ppg (current)
Total: 430GP 126-118-244-.567ppg

One of these players is Ryan Callahan, and the other makes 4.175M AAV on a five year deal. Can you guess which one is the 4.175M USA Olympic RW outproducing him with equal intangibles, and which one is Callahan?

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02-02-2014, 09:34 AM
  #70
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I am guessing A is Oshie and B is Callahan. But they really aren't the same player, Callahan is much more of defensive specialist, a better hitter, better in the dirty areas. Oshie has some grit but he is primarily an offensive player who uses skating/stickhandling to do most of his damage(IMO).

Which actually supports your point, and I wholeheartedly agree, that Callahan asking for 6mil is ridiculous. I think 4y, 4.5mil is an absolute max for him. At that price you flip him for Stewart in a heartbeat. Longer term, more money, you pass.

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02-02-2014, 11:59 AM
  #71
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Callahan is a better hitter
O rly?

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02-02-2014, 12:17 PM
  #72
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O rly?
Kind of a quality vs. quantity debate. Callahan hits far more often, but Oshie's hits are usually explosive. "Better" hitter is rather subjective. Depends on what you're looking for in a hit. As a top 9 player, I'd rather see Oshie's style of choosing his spots to throw a huge hit. 4th liners need Callahan's philosophy of hit everything that moves.

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02-02-2014, 12:50 PM
  #73
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This seems like it would be a rental and I just don't think this is the year to make this kinda move. This would be a great move and worth the price for a run at The Cup if The Blues had the extra center in the top six. Doing something like this seems like a waste of assets, unless they're able to add the center, either this year or during the summer, then this seems like a great move if he was signed for four or five years. The one setback is he plays bigger than he is and injuries could become an issue.

Might gut is to stick with what they have on the right-side after moving Stewart and just acquire the center.

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02-02-2014, 01:14 PM
  #74
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(putting aside the fact that if his price came down enough for us to want him, the Rangers would just re-sign him)

the appeal of Callahan for me is that the Blues have been lacking a certain kind of player IMO for the last couple years and Cally is that sort of player. A guy who can score the greasy goals around the net for lack of a better term. Morrow is supposed to be helping out with that but doesn't quite have enough left to do it regularly.

As far as the hitting goes, I'll use an NBA analogy. I'd rather have the guy that plays great man defense all the time over the guy who makes some flashy shot blocks. Highlight reel hits don't win hockey games, and they can put players out of position and lead to the opposite.

They are both great players, though, no real need to put them up against one another.

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02-02-2014, 02:56 PM
  #75
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For what it's worth, there is nothing to indicate that the Blues would be interested in Callahan. The original rumor was that NYR were interested in Stewart, and that Dreger thought Callahan for Stewart would be a good deal for the Blues.

I don't think Callahan would make a big enough difference, coming from another team and trying to fit the system before his contract runs out.

Re-signing him seems out of the question, considering his pay-raise would take vital cap space away from Schwartz & Tarasenko's future deals and would present serious redundancy with Oshie. It would also jeopardize any Miller & Stastny opportunities.

I don't think Stewart is anywhere bad enough to knee-jerk replace him for a question mark, at least in the moment. Ride him as tertiary scoring and if he doesn't pan out bench him and replace him with Jaskin over the off-season.

Besides that, if he makes it to UFA the Blues can still trade Stewart to the NYR but for more assets that do not include Callahan.

Quote:
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Kind of a quality vs. quantity debate. Callahan hits far more often, but Oshie's hits are usually explosive. "Better" hitter is rather subjective. Depends on what you're looking for in a hit. As a top 9 player, I'd rather see Oshie's style of choosing his spots to throw a huge hit. 4th liners need Callahan's philosophy of hit everything that moves.
I wonder if NYR still inflate their hit stats.

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