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Trade Rumors Thread XV: Rangers allowing a team to talk to Callahan

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Old
02-01-2014, 10:21 AM
  #926
SnowblindNYR
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
You are not the only one. I've been beating that drum for a while.

I'd be willing to trade Girardi for the same reason - but he is more durable, plays a more important position and seems to be willing to come back on a favorable deal, so it may make sense to keep him.
Losing a good 1st pairing defenseman on the weaker side who is playing well will hurt A LOT more than losing a great 3rd line winger who is playing average. I think Girardi would bring back more, but IMO his value compared to Callahan's to other teams is a way smaller ratio than their values to this team.

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02-01-2014, 10:22 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Vidic15 View Post
I've got news for you. It will just be a dream. Callahan is a pathetic captain. He isn't worthy of washing Messier's jock. Anybody see Shane Doan's interview after their loss the night before last? A true captain who takes ownership for his team's poor play. He spoke honestly without any of the cliches we constantly hear from Callahan. Captain Quaalude


I do somewhat agree with you. There are times where cliches are tired. This is Drury's doing though. And some people like it, other people don't like it. I think there is a time and place for a player to speak in cliches, and for a player to tell it how it is. Callahan won't do the latter, because that's not the style of captain he is.

I specifically remember after a Rangers/Islanders game a few seasons back where Avery went off post-game. Saying it was an embarrassing way for the Rangers to play in a rivalry game, and that they embarrassed the organization and the jersey. It was a great sound byte, but there's no reason to go off like that every loss.

Sometimes the cliched way is the way to go.

I'm sure that these trade rumors won't ruin Callahan's holidays

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02-01-2014, 10:22 AM
  #928
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
You could see how Cammalleri warranted that pay, kind of. He did hit 50 pts. more than once (Has an 80 pt. season under his belt, almost a 40 goal season, too.). Jordan definitely got overpaid as he hit 50 pts. only once and that was from playing with a team consisting of Crosby, Malkin, Kunits, Neal.
The problem is Callahan has a history of injuries compared to the other two. I'd probably change my tune if it was just one fault rather than two: Cally only getting 50 pts. once but rarely got hurt, Cally getting hurt often but was a consistent 50+ pts. getter.
That's fair. And it is worth mentioning that injuries can be taken into account when talking price. Gaborik's a good example of a player who was probably worth more based on his previous production, but got a medium term contract for somewhat less money because of his injury history.

That being said... let's take the Callahan/Staal/Cammalleri comparison one step further. At $6m today, Callahan's contract is worth relatively less than Cammalleri's was and Staal's was when they signed their deals. 8.43% is the number for Callahan, if the cap is truly $71.1m. 9.33% for Staal. 10.43% for Cammalleri.

So I agree that Callahan is worth somewhat less than those guys, but he's also being paid less too. Saying a "player is not worth $6m because look at the comparables" is a meaningless statement under an inflationary cap.

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02-01-2014, 10:23 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Greedy? No.

First of all, maybe he wants out of NYR, maybe he has a plan and maybe Sather knows of that plan. I'm not saying Callahan doesn't like being a Ranger, but maybe he'd rather finish his career elsewhere, somewhere with his family, somewhere that will pay him more or as much as the Rangers will in the form of a retirement contract. If Callahan and Sather spoke at the beginning of the year and Cally told him he didn't want to re-sign here, then it becomes a game of chess in getting a maximum return for him. You don't just come out and say "Callahan is not signing with the Rangers next year." That would do nothing for his value. So perhaps this has been the plan all along and Callahan and his agent are asking the world because he knows they aren't coming back to NYR. This happens all the time with players who want to move on. Look at Kovalchuk in Atlanta. They were willing to pay him well what he was worth, but he and his agent asked for even more because it was their way of saying, "Sorry we're not interested."

I'm not saying this scenario is what is happening right now, but it is one theory I have why Callahan is asking for a ridiculous 7/42 contract from Sather.

The other theory is he just wants to get paid and actually believes he is worth that contract. That still doesn't make him greedy, he's got to look out for his family and financial future post hockey. I gave Drury a lot of **** for handcuffing the Rangers and not just retiring from his contract when he basically could not play any more. Looking back I was wrong, and he did what was best for himself and his family. It's a business and if there is one thing I learned working for a big company with a union it's that the company will try and screw the union any chance they get. So I don't blame Drury or Callahan for getting what they earned from the Rangers or the NHL.
You are going in a bad direction with this. I can argue the exact opposite regarding the toxicity of unions all day. There is a enormous difference between being unionized making 70k a year and 7 million.

Regarding the top part though I do think you are right. If Slats has known though I wonder why he waits until now when the team is playing well?

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Old
02-01-2014, 10:26 AM
  #930
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I ought to know better than to use Hank as an example with you,

But still, you don't expect someone's play to just take off magically as soon as it's signed. It could take some time. Let me ask, if Hank were still unsigned, do you think he'd still be playing at the level he is now?
Yes, he's a professional and a competitor. He had an excellent stretch after the terrible start he had before signing and had a terrible stretch after signing. The Thursday before last I had the worst day at work I had in a while and was an inch away from quitting. I was sure that the following week I wouldn't be able to work on a project, because it was a pain in the ass and I got into an argument with my boss over it and I was pissed, I had one of the more productive weeks last week, despite hating my job.

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02-01-2014, 10:26 AM
  #931
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That's why I understand the rumors. And that's why I thinbk this is nothing more than a well orchestrated strategy by Sather to get his man at his price.

Not such a dumbass after all.
The numbers Callahan and his agent gave Sather have been there since the summer according to Brooks.

What makes you think a bunch of rumors and trade hype are going to magically make them come down on that price? I understand the theory someone posted regarding Jeter and letting a player find out the hard way they are not worth what they are asking, but that requires two thing to be true, first, Callahan actually believes he is worth 7/$42 and Sather should pay him that, and second, there isn't another GM in this league who won't offer him that with a rising cap coming every year for the forseeable future.

The one thing I have agreed with Ola on regarding this debate is that a 7 year contract will benefit the team who gives it to him. He will make the most money now under a cap that will look significantly smaller than the cap that he will be making the least amount of money at the end of his contract. In that regard even if he is playing like crap by the end of the contract, his actual money will be relatively small and will probably not even matter to said team.

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02-01-2014, 10:26 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Losing a good 1st pairing defenseman on the weaker side who is playing well will hurt A LOT more than losing a great 3rd line winger who is playing average. I think Girardi would bring back more, but IMO his value compared to Callahan's to other teams is a way smaller ratio than their values to this team.
I think we're basically agreeing.

It all depends on the return you can get for Girardi and what contract he is willing to sign. What if the reports are wrong and he wants a $45MM over 7? What if Montreal has given up on signing Subban and is willing to trade him for Girardi?

I don't think either of those scenarios are in fact the case, so it probably does make sense to bring him back - especially if you do then get the assets you need out of a Callahan deal.

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Old
02-01-2014, 10:28 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
You are going in a bad direction with this. I can argue the exact opposite regarding the toxicity of unions all day. There is a enormous difference between being unionized making 70k a year and 7 million.

Regarding the top part though I do think you are right. If Slats has known though I wonder why he waits until now when the team is playing well?
I agree, both the company and the union have their devils, but as far as honoring contracts and asking for what you are worth goes, I have no problem with what either of them were/are doing.

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02-01-2014, 10:30 AM
  #934
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They need assets. Young assets, primarily centers.
I want a C prospect or a first coming back in any trade they make with one of their valued players.

They need to start trying to hit the home run regarding a true #1 center.

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02-01-2014, 10:35 AM
  #935
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
I agree, both the company and the union have their devils, but as far as honoring contracts and asking for what you are worth goes, I have no problem with what either of them were/are doing.
I agree. I don't think either side is doing anything wrong. We all give Glen a lot of crap but I think he is absolutely right on this one if he was in fact trying to get Callahan to sign. I still disagree with giving him 6per year but at 5 years I could stomach it much more than 7 years. I can also understand Callahan wanting 7 years. It also makes sense if this is just a ploy. I just want to find out sooner rather than later

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02-01-2014, 10:36 AM
  #936
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On an un-Cally related note, if Subban gets dealt and it seems NYR could have upped the offer without killing the team, I'll be really peeved.

Guy is, and will be one of the top 2 offensive d-men of the 2010's.

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02-01-2014, 10:40 AM
  #937
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On an un-Cally related note, if Subban gets dealt and it seems NYR could have upped the offer without killing the team, I'll be really peeved.

Guy is, and will be one of the top 2 offensive d-men of the 2010's.
It's another Seguin situation.

Do the Rangers have an Eriksson, Riely Smith, Morrow, and Fraser?

Without gutting this team? I don't think they can do it to be honest.

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02-01-2014, 10:42 AM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
It's another Seguin situation.

Do the Rangers have an Eriksson, Riely Smith, Morrow, and Fraser?

Without gutting this team? I don't think they can do it to be honest.
On the one hand, Montreal fans would say they want McDonagh, Stepan, and a first.
NYR fans would offer Staal, Brassard, and a 2nd.

I am sure there is some middle ground.

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02-01-2014, 10:47 AM
  #939
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Originally Posted by Vidic15 View Post
I've got news for you. It will just be a dream. Callahan is a pathetic captain. He isn't worthy of washing Messier's jock. Anybody see Shane Doan's interview after their loss the night before last? A true captain who takes ownership for his team's poor play. He spoke honestly without any of the cliches we constantly hear from Callahan. Captain Quaalude
Totally right. Wasn't a finalist for the Messier Leadership award in his first year as a captain. Doesn't have the expressed, vocal support of every coach he's played for and player he's played with. Hasn't earned the C by working harder than anyone on the ice time and time again.

Nope. Clearly, a Captain is defined by what he says to the media after the game.

Wow,

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02-01-2014, 10:50 AM
  #940
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On the one hand, Montreal fans would say they want McDonagh, Stepan, and a first.
NYR fans would offer Staal, Brassard, and a 2nd.

I am sure there is some middle ground.
Possibly, but the depth Dallas has at the wings is/was/still is insane.

McD is obviously a no go. Let alone adding Stepan, and I would trade Stepan for him in a heartbeat, the problem with that is the Rangers center depth is so abysmal it's hardly a realistic option.

I'd certainly do Stepan, McI, Kristo, 1st. Assuming they had a plan for their center depth.

I think Montreal would want something closer to Kreider, McI/Staal/Girardi, Fast/Kristo/Duclair, 1st.

I'm not 100% keen on their immediate team needs however.

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02-01-2014, 10:51 AM
  #941
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These arguments regarding money are starting to become extremely comical.

Ive seen this great e-card. You know the ones where there is this vintage black and white image and then a catchy phrase to the left of it. And I believe I'm paraphrasing, Im not sure if this was the exact way it went but it said this.

We call people who collect and collect things and let them pile up and we call them horders.
We call people who end up accumulating a lot of cats, looney.
We call people who feverishly milk systems and people of money, to the extent that the earth is crippled, animal species are extinct, and billions of people can't feed, shelter or cloth themselves: capitalists.

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02-01-2014, 10:52 AM
  #942
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Has any notable player ever been traded the season before reaching free agency only to turn around and re-sign with the team that traded him?

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02-01-2014, 10:53 AM
  #943
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Originally Posted by JPP4121 View Post
Ive seen this great e-card. You know the ones where there is this vintage black and white image and then a catchy phrase to the left of it. And I believe I'm paraphrasing, Im not sure if this was the exact way it went but it said this.

We call people who collect and collect things and let them pile up and we call them horders.
We call people who end up accumulating a lot of cats, looney.
We call people who feverishly milk systems and people of money, to the extent that the earth is crippled, animal species are extinct, and billions of people can't feed, shelter or cloth themselves: capitalists.
Yeah the world sucks, people are greedy, money is everything, okay. We know.

However this isn't a good argument as to why Callahan shouldn't get paid if he can do so.

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02-01-2014, 10:56 AM
  #944
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
The numbers Callahan and his agent gave Sather have been there since the summer according to Brooks.

What makes you think a bunch of rumors and trade hype are going to magically make them come down on that price? I understand the theory someone posted regarding Jeter and letting a player find out the hard way they are not worth what they are asking, but that requires two thing to be true, first, Callahan actually believes he is worth 7/$42 and Sather should pay him that, and second, there isn't another GM in this league who won't offer him that with a rising cap coming every year for the forseeable future.

The one thing I have agreed with Ola on regarding this debate is that a 7 year contract will benefit the team who gives it to him. He will make the most money now under a cap that will look significantly smaller than the cap that he will be making the least amount of money at the end of his contract. In that regard even if he is playing like crap by the end of the contract, his actual money will be relatively small and will probably not even matter to said team.
bc this is not trade rumors and hype. This is the situation playing itself out, and luckily it's playing itself out now, instead of 3 days before the trade deadline or July 1st.

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02-01-2014, 10:57 AM
  #945
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Has any notable player ever been traded the season before reaching free agency only to turn around and re-sign with the team that traded him?
Doug Weight and Keith Tkachuk both did.

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02-01-2014, 10:58 AM
  #946
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That's fair. And it is worth mentioning that injuries can be taken into account when talking price. Gaborik's a good example of a player who was probably worth more based on his previous production, but got a medium term contract for somewhat less money because of his injury history.

That being said... let's take the Callahan/Staal/Cammalleri comparison one step further. At $6m today, Callahan's contract is worth relatively less than Cammalleri's was and Staal's was when they signed their deals. 8.43% is the number for Callahan, if the cap is truly $71.1m. 9.33% for Staal. 10.43% for Cammalleri.

So I agree that Callahan is worth somewhat less than those guys, but he's also being paid less too. Saying a "player is not worth $6m because look at the comparables" is a meaningless statement under an inflationary cap.
I agree about the money. As Ranger fans, we should be the first ones to know that the UFA has always been a bit wild. Guys who have carved out a niche in this league for several years and make it to unrestricted free agency are going to get paid.

The better question, and the crux of the argument is if Callahan (or any FA, really) is worth that much, for that long, to the NY Rangers.

When I keep thinking of a team that could really benefit in the short-term with him, a team that can make a good argument that its a worthwhile contract if his play falls off a cliff in 3-4 years, that type of team ain't the Rangers.

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02-01-2014, 10:59 AM
  #947
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Yeah the world sucks, people are greedy, money is everything, okay. We know.

However this isn't a good argument as to why Callahan shouldn't get paid if he can do so.
hahaha i didn't say that either bud. I think the world is magical man. Im having a blast. Ive posted a lot of the callahan situation. But yeah don't look straight into the sun man.

Seriously man, try reading my posts. In fact just read my first post.

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02-01-2014, 11:00 AM
  #948
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Originally Posted by JPP4121 View Post
bc this is not trade rumors and hype. This is the situation playing itself out, and luckily it's playing itself out now, instead of 3 days before the trade deadline or July 1st.
That was my point. I don't see this being a negotiation ploy for a better contract.

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02-01-2014, 11:00 AM
  #949
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Originally Posted by Vidic15 View Post
I've got news for you. It will just be a dream. Callahan is a pathetic captain. He isn't worthy of washing Messier's jock. Anybody see Shane Doan's interview after their loss the night before last? A true captain who takes ownership for his team's poor play. He spoke honestly without any of the cliches we constantly hear from Callahan. Captain Quaalude
Why would it matter what a captain says to the freaking media? Oh my god, do you think his leadership qualities are in anyway judged by his peers by how much frustration he shows outside the locker room? Some people wear it on their sleeve all the time. In the military, and the board room that's a MAJOR negative. I've personally had a team captain that threw poorly performing players under the bus at campus parties in front of people not associated with the team. It made him a d**k, not a great captain. We all knew the issues in our own locker room, as did the staff, and the players themselves.

The media and fans get cliches, because on what planet can the media or fans change a single thing about the team's success? They can't, at all. So if it can't help the situation one tiny bit, how in the world is it a good idea? The only thing that can come from it is a tear in the social fabric of the team. Doan couldn't handle the stress of having to answer for his teammates stoically any more. Cally can.

Stop being silly and self entitled. No one in that locker room cares one damn if you as a fan knows the level of frustration some players are working through. Trust me, they appreciate his stoicism, that they can work through their issues as a team, with Captsin Cally not breathing a single word of it to anyone else. After our ******bag captain our coaches made sure the follow-up crew understood that they're the security blanket for the team. Keep locker room stuff close to the vest, and allow players to work on their issues without bringing undue attention.

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02-01-2014, 11:02 AM
  #950
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The better question, and the crux of the argument is if Callahan (or any FA, really) is worth that much, for that long, to the NY Rangers..
To which I will say this:

The conversation here comes down to one choice.

Ryan Callahan for 7 years @ $6m?

or

Mats Zuccarello for 4-5 years @ $3.5-4m?

To which I will answer that I'm completely torn.

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