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Alfredsson MUST GO !

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Old
08-06-2005, 12:56 PM
  #1
Release The Lehner
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Alfredsson MUST GO !

As much as I love his dedication to us, the sad fact is that we'll never win with Alfredsson as the heart of this team. I'm sure he's got a desire to win but as the leader of this team the other players need to see a leader who wants to win more than anything ... someone that would place winning the cup above the birth of their first child. And I'm sorry but Alfie doesn't have what it takes.

In fact the formula for finding a captain/leader like that is quite simple - find a Canadian. Since as far back as I can remember the only Stanley Cup winning team that did not have Canadians as the captains/leaders/heart of their team was Dallas in '99 with Mike Modano and Brett Hull leading the way (but really Brett Hull is Canadian even though you'd be hard pressed to tell).

2004 - TB: Lecavalier & St.Louis & Richards
2003 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
2002 - DET: Yzerman
2001 - COL: Sakic & Bourque & Roy
2000 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
1999 - DAL: Modano & Hull
1998 - DET: Yzerman
1997 - DET: Yzerman
1996 - COL: Sakic & Roy
1995 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
1994 - NYR: Messier & Graves
1993 - MTL: Roy & Damphousse
1992 - PIT: Lemieux
1991 - PIT: Lemieux
1990 - EDM: Gretzky & Messier

This year may very well be another anomaly with a swede leading their team to the promised land in either Forsberg, Alfredsson, or Naslund (I'd bet on Forsberg before Alfie) but before you put money on it remember that history has clearly shown the odds aren't in your favour. And don't think those Colorado wins were because of Forsberg. Roy's save percentage shoots up to almost .940 in the playoffs in those years and with Colorado letting Forsberg walk this past week it's clear that it's been Sakic's team all this time.


MY SOLUTION:

Trade: Alfredsson, Varada, Smolinski and a 1st rounder to Boston for Thornton.
Trade: deVries and a 2nd rounder to Carolina for Erik Cole.
Sign: Gratton $1.2M

Cole(1.5)-Thornton(6)-Hossa(4.5)
Fisher(1.1)-Spezza(2.25)-Havlat(3)
Vermette(1)-Gratton(1.2)-Eaves/Bochenski(850K)
Schaefer(1)-?-Neil(450K)

Redden(3.7)-Volchenkov(1.4)
Chara(3.7)-Phillips(2)
Meszaros(850K)-Pothier(550K)

Hasek(1.5)
Emery(850K)

Total Payroll: 37.4M
Cap Room: 1.6M (less 600K for 4th line center)

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Old
08-06-2005, 01:00 PM
  #2
The Mars Volchenkov
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I love how you conveniently left out guys like Forsberg for Colorado and Lidstrom for Detroit on who led their teams to the cup. Those guys were leaders on their teams, as well as Elias in NJ.

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Old
08-06-2005, 01:02 PM
  #3
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I thought we were through with these scenario threads..... I think we should just dedicate one thread to a tear the team apart rant.

Look into Bostons payrole a bit.

The only way the sens land Thornton is a Havlat Volchenkov for Thornton deal.

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08-06-2005, 01:06 PM
  #4
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Never!

In my opinion Alfie should retire as a senator, in fact i think we've gone over this before in a similiar thread, on why alfie should not go. Lets just say hes an amazing leader on and off ice and hes loyal to the senators. Plus this season is going to be his biggest yet with a creative center like Spezza.

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Old
08-06-2005, 01:09 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Senator
As much as I love his dedication to us, the sad fact is that we'll never win with Alfredsson as the heart of this team. I'm sure he's got a desire to win but as the leader of this team the other players need to see a leader who wants to win more than anything ... someone that would place winning the cup above the birth of their first child. And I'm sorry but Alfie doesn't have what it takes.

In fact the formula for finding a captain/leader like that is quite simple - find a Canadian. Since as far back as I can remember the only Stanley Cup winning team that did not have Canadians as the captains/leaders/heart of their team was Dallas in '99 with Mike Modano and Brett Hull leading the way (but really Brett Hull is Canadian even though you'd be hard pressed to tell).

2004 - TB: Lecavalier & St.Louis & Richards
2003 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
2002 - DET: Yzerman
2001 - COL: Sakic & Bourque & Roy
2000 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
1999 - DAL: Modano & Hull
1998 - DET: Yzerman
1997 - DET: Yzerman
1996 - COL: Sakic & Roy
1995 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
1994 - NYR: Messier & Graves
1993 - MTL: Roy & Damphousse
1992 - PIT: Lemieux
1991 - PIT: Lemieux
1990 - EDM: Gretzky & Messier

This year may very well be another anomaly with a swede leading their team to the promised land in either Forsberg, Alfredsson, or Naslund (I'd bet on Forsberg before Alfie) but before you put money on it remember that history has clearly shown the odds aren't in your favour. And don't think those Colorado wins were because of Forsberg. Roy's save percentage shoots up to almost .940 in the playoffs in those years and with Colorado letting Forsberg walk this past week it's clear that it's been Sakic's team all this time.


MY SOLUTION:

Trade: Alfredsson, Varada, Smolinski and a 1st rounder to Boston for Thornton.
Trade: deVries and a 2nd rounder to Carolina for Erik Cole.
Sign: Gratton $1.2M

Cole(1.5)-Thornton(6)-Hossa(4.5)
Fisher(1.1)-Spezza(2.25)-Havlat(3)
Vermette(1)-Gratton(1.2)-Eaves/Bochenski(850K)
Schaefer(1)-?-Neil(450K)

Redden(3.7)-Volchenkov(1.4)
Chara(3.7)-Phillips(2)
Meszaros(850K)-Pothier(550K)

Hasek(1.5)
Emery(850K)

Total Payroll: 37.4M
Cap Room: 1.6M (less 600K for 4th line center)
All personal attacks aside. You're a fool.

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Old
08-06-2005, 01:10 PM
  #6
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Sundin is to Toronto is what Alffy is to Ottawa. There is no way that Ottawa should trade their Captain.

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08-06-2005, 01:15 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Senator
1994 - NYR: Messier & Graves

1990 - EDM: Gretzky & Messier

1994 - where's the AMERICAN Brian Leetch
1990 - umm...did Gretz help telepathically?


The Edmonton dynasty had guys like Kurri and Tikannen
Colorado had Forsberg
Detroit had Lindstrom, even guys like Konstantinov (the emotion of the 2nd Cup was a dedication to him)

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Old
08-06-2005, 01:16 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGuy
I love how you conveniently left out guys like Forsberg for Colorado and Lidstrom for Detroit on who led their teams to the cup. Those guys were leaders on their teams, as well as Elias in NJ.
I'm talkin about the HEART & SOUL of a team. Just cause Forsberg and Lindstrom and Elias were there doesn't mean they lead the team.
-2001 the H&S came from Bourque wanting to win a cup and Roy retiring.
-1996 Ok, I'll give Forsberg credit on that one. He did dominate that year. But the true H&S came from guys like Roy, Sakic, and Foote.
-The Detroit wins, I'm sorry but those belong to guys like Draper, Maltby, Shanahan, and Yzerman. You can't for one second say that the H&S of those team wasn't Yzerman.

It's like Jagr and Lemieux in Pitt. Sure Jagr was a big part of those wins but as he has shown since that time he doesn't have close to what it takes to lead a team to the cup on his own. Jagr, like Elias and Lindstrom are just really good support; not true leaders in the NHL sense.

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08-06-2005, 01:19 PM
  #9
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After Yzerman in Detroit, Lidstrom is the heart and soul of that team. I don't know how you can argue against that.

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08-06-2005, 01:23 PM
  #10
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1999, Derian Hatcher was captain of the Stars, but yest there leaders we all American. The Picton, Ontario boy Brett Hull, Mike Modano and the caption Derian Hatcher.

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Old
08-06-2005, 01:24 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo2003
Sundin is to Toronto is what Alffy is to Ottawa. There is no way that Ottawa should trade their Captain.
And like Sundin hasn't done the job in Toronto ... Alfredsson can't do it in Ottawa.

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08-06-2005, 01:24 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGuy
I love how you conveniently left out guys like Forsberg for Colorado and Lidstrom for Detroit on who led their teams to the cup. Those guys were leaders on their teams, as well as Elias in NJ.
Was about to say the same thing.

Colorado without forsberg = no cup

No one can say that alfie doesn't want to win. I think that he wants to win so bad that it tears him up when they lose. And he deals with it by lashing out (ie. Domi stuff etc)

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08-06-2005, 01:26 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Senator
And like Sundin hasn't done the job in Toronto ... Alfredsson can't do it in Ottawa.
I don't think their problem is Sundin.

It's the strategy in which management has tried to patch together a cup-winning team, without having any kind of drafted core.

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08-06-2005, 01:27 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Senator
And like Sundin hasn't done the job in Toronto ... Alfredsson can't do it in Ottawa.

you've moved away from your orignal point. So Bourque didnt have heart in Boston? Gilmour and Clark didnt in Toronto? Come on, no one questions Sundin or Alfredsson's desire to win the cup. They are just as passionate as the Yzermans, Sakic's and Forsbergs, but they ahve yet to acheieve their goal because their teams did not have the players,goalies,grit,luck or whatever to win.

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08-06-2005, 01:29 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo2003
1990 - umm...did Gretz help telepathically?
They don't call him the Great One for nothing.

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08-06-2005, 01:33 PM
  #16
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Oh man. You are a fool. Yserman was always a primadona type of a player before russian pyaterka came to Detroit. He was so bad that Scotty wanted him to be gone to the worst team in the league at the time, Ottawa Senators. In 1997 the heart of that team was Konstantinov. How can you argue with that.

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08-06-2005, 01:37 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo2003
1994 - where's the AMERICAN Brian Leetch
1990 - umm...did Gretz help telepathically?


The Edmonton dynasty had guys like Kurri and Tikannen
Colorado had Forsberg
Detroit had Lindstrom, even guys like Konstantinov (the emotion of the 2nd Cup was a dedication to him)
1994: you're right ... i knew i forgot someone. I also thought Richter should have gotten a bit of recognition there too so, yeah, NYR in '94 is half Canadian half American.
1990: sorry, my bad, I forgot he was gone. Replace Gretzky with Ranford.
Edmonton Dynasty: Kurri was only Kurri because he played next to Gretzky. And it was more guys like Gretz, Mess, Coffey, Lowe, Ranford, before it was Tikannen.
Colorado: Yes Forsberg was a big part of it but it was more Sakic, Roy, Foote, Bourque etc.
Detroit: Yes Linstrom is an exceptional player ... but the leader of that team is Yzerman (he won the conn smythe for the 2nd cup)


Last edited by Release The Lehner: 08-06-2005 at 01:47 PM.
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Old
08-06-2005, 01:40 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almothegreat
1999, Derian Hatcher was captain of the Stars, but yest there leaders we all American. The Picton, Ontario boy Brett Hull, Mike Modano and the caption Derian Hatcher.
Niewendyk also won the conn smythe for that team. They had a healthy mix.

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08-06-2005, 01:40 PM
  #19
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the notion that if you arent Canadian born, you dont have a Soul, is just complete rubbish

Sundin has what it takes to win a cup just as much as Modano, and Alfy has what it takes to win just as much as Yzerman. Sure, hes not the prototypical team captain, but teams win championships, not the captain alone

ottawas biggest problem has been goaltending, not the nationality of its Captain

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08-06-2005, 02:01 PM
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The premise of the original post is flawed, but I think a fairly solid arguement can be made for moving Alfie next offseason to make room in the budget to retain Hossa, Redden, Chara, Spezza and Havlat.

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08-06-2005, 02:11 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Senator
2004 - TB: Lecavalier & St.Louis & Richards* Khabibulin
2003 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer* Brodeur
2002 - DET: Yzerman*Hasek
2001 - COL: Sakic & Bourque & Roy
2000 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
1999 - DAL: Modano & Hull Belfour
1998 - DET: Yzerman Osgoode
1997 - DET: Yzerman vernon
1996 - COL: Sakic & Roy
1995 - NJ: Brodeur & Stevens & Neidermayer
1994 - NYR: Messier & Graves Richter
1993 - MTL: Roy & Damphousse
1992 - PIT: Lemieux Barrasso
1991 - PIT: Lemieux Barrasso
1990 - EDM: Gretzky & Messier

You say its the heart and soul canadian players, i say its the heart and soul goaltenders. Minus Osgoode, is there one goalie that didnt outshine other goalies in those seasons?

Alfie is what he is, one of the top wingers in the game, who plays bigger than he is, and gives an all our effort. if you dont think thats enough to call him a captain, thats fine. I will say the only reason he doesnt have a ring right now is because we havent had one of the goalies listed above playing nets for us.

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Old
08-06-2005, 02:19 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat
the notion that if you arent Canadian born, you dont have a Soul, is just complete rubbish

Sundin has what it takes to win a cup just as much as Modano, and Alfy has what it takes to win just as much as Yzerman. Sure, hes not the prototypical team captain, but teams win championships, not the captain alone

ottawas biggest problem has been goaltending, not the nationality of its Captain
Yes, if you aren't Canadian you don't have a soul. C'mon.
Clearly heart & soul refers to the desire to win the cup in this case.

And I'm not blindly saying that you MUST be Canadian in order to lead your team to the cup. It's just that history has pretty much shown this to be true.

Along with my personal assessment of who the leaders of each team are you can look at the conn smythe winners throughout history. In the history of the NHL there has been one Swedish winner (Lindstrom '02) and one American (Leetch '94), every other one of the 40 winners since 1965 has been a Canadian. And I'm pretty sure the Captain of every Cup winner since then has been Canadian except Hatcher in Dallas in '99 (not 100% sure though).

You guys can bet on Alfredsson all you want, but I'll put my money on a Canadian like Joe Thornton before him any day of the week.

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08-06-2005, 02:39 PM
  #23
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Boston wouldn't do that trade. You want to trade your team leader for a guy who doesn't show up in the playoffs? Do you actually call yourself a sens fan? If so, how sad!

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08-06-2005, 02:48 PM
  #24
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Alfredsson is the only player on the team who plays at 100 % every game. Maybe Fisher, but how many games does he play?

That kind of work ethic is hard to find.

Havlat should go before Alfie goes.

He's gotten himself suspended twice for stupid stunts, was left off the Czech Republic team for attitude issues, and held out last season. He's a terrific talent, but don't think for a second that we'll be able to retain him. He'll be long gone as soon as he can.

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08-06-2005, 02:49 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Senator
Along with my personal assessment of who the leaders of each team are you can look at the conn smythe winners throughout history. In the history of the NHL there has been one Swedish winner (Lindstrom '02) and one American (Leetch '94), every other one of the 40 winners since 1965 has been a Canadian.
Europeans haven't really been taken seriously since the early to mid 90's. There were relatively few of them and they did not occupy starring roles on their teams. There have only been European captains over the last 5-8 years I'd say.

Going back to 1965 makes no relevant point whatsoever.

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