HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Nash Resigns with Columbus

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-08-2005, 02:27 AM
  #276
quat
intheDanRusseljungle
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 8,989
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to quat
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaBs_ReNeGaTe
Nash is currently the best overall hockey player in the world...
Excellent! We have another best player in the world to add to the list. To date:

Nash
Iginla
Pronger
Niedermayer
Forsberg

Any others? I want to add Brodeur to the list, but I can't recall reading that in the past couple of weeks.

Either way, it's a lot of "best player in the world"

quat is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 02:29 AM
  #277
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
 
King'sPawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I disagree. I think that type of contract is for anyone whom you expect to be worth that much. (unless you can milk them for less).
And that's the point of those bashing DM.

I agree that Nash is a premiere goalscorer. However, it's weak management, in my opinion, when you let a 21 year-old grab you by the nuts. This big contracts are, in my opinion, reserved for those who could be lost out due to free agency.

And when Nash does get better, if/when Zherdev/Brule/Klesla get better, when Denis or LeClaire approach free agency, there won't be enough money. Nash will want more than 5.4 if he improves from last year (or if he offsets fewer goals by getting more assists).

And we don't know how revenue/the cap will be in the future.

Securing the franchise player is a good thing. Potentially gutting your team in the future over it is not. DM should have used better negotiations than to be at the mercy of this kid so soon.

King'sPawn is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 02:46 AM
  #278
KariyaIsGod*
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
And that's the point of those bashing DM.

I agree that Nash is a premiere goalscorer. However, it's weak management, in my opinion, when you let a 21 year-old grab you by the nuts. This big contracts are, in my opinion, reserved for those who could be lost out due to free agency.

And when Nash does get better, if/when Zherdev/Brule/Klesla get better, when Denis or LeClaire approach free agency, there won't be enough money. Nash will want more than 5.4 if he improves from last year (or if he offsets fewer goals by getting more assists).

And we don't know how revenue/the cap will be in the future.

Securing the franchise player is a good thing. Potentially gutting your team in the future over it is not. DM should have used better negotiations than to be at the mercy of this kid so soon.
But why is it that when Kovalchuk, or Hejduk, or Iginla get paid more, nobody will blink an eye?

Did you ever think that maybe DM figured he should pay him what a premiere player is worth, despite his age?

That number keeps coming up here. 21... WHO CARES? Whether he's 21 or 27 doesn't matter, he is still one of the league's premiere players. Enough said. Pay him what a player of his calibre is worth and above all don't treat him like some punk and penalize him financially because of his age...

KariyaIsGod* is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 02:55 AM
  #279
Mat
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Magnetomountaineer
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 2,054
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Mat Send a message via MSN to Mat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoalzie
$5.4 million for a future captain and 50-60 goal scorer...I'd take that.
same.
i dont get why people are freaking out about these numbers

Mat is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 03:01 AM
  #280
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
And that's the point of those bashing DM.

I agree that Nash is a premiere goalscorer. However, it's weak management, in my opinion, when you let a 21 year-old grab you by the nuts. This big contracts are, in my opinion, reserved for those who could be lost out due to free agency.
I hear you, and that's why I am really skeptical of this contract.

However, that's the thing. People keep on thinking Gaborik, Havlat, that type of stuff. This isn't what we have here, IMO.

This hockey opinion is debatable, but as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't trade Rick Nash for any forward asset in this league. I've said so a month ago and I haven't changed my mind. Right away, he's in an entirely different category as far as I'm concerned.

Secondly, this is not the same CBA. The compensations are all screwed up now. Your assumption that Rick Nash can't be lost to free agency may be a leap of faith on your part.

All it takes to lure Rick Nash out of Columbus for $5,000,000 is two first round picks, a 2nd and a 3rd.

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 03:08 AM
  #281
rwilson99
Registered User
 
rwilson99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TAMPA, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
Slightly less is an understatment to say the least.

Didn't Bob clarke cough up DRAFT PICKS to get Chris Gratton? Not to mention the fact that Chris Gratton is just bad compared to Nash?
But Gratton had POTENTIAL!

He coughed up Karl Dykhuis and Mikal Renberg as compensation. Not to mention a $10M signing bonus.

MacLean will only have to cough up one of his other forwards when he can't sign them to a similarly stupid offer in the future, one that said forward will rightfully demand.

rwilson99 is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 03:33 AM
  #282
Ironchef Chris Wok*
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Red Sox Nation
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Ironchef Chris Wok*
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwilson99
But Gratton had POTENTIAL!

He coughed up Karl Dykhuis and Mikal Renberg as compensation. Not to mention a $10M signing bonus.

MacLean will only have to cough up one of his other forwards when he can't sign them to a similarly stupid offer in the future, one that said forward will rightfully demand.
Gratton had potential for sure. Nash has potential, but (I knwo it's hyperbole) Nash has prolly done more in the NHL in his short career than Gratton has COMBINED. Gratton in 97 had potential but was still the waste of space he is now. (I remember Renberg being pretty good back in the day... or am I wrong? Iknow Dykhuis was always useless)

Nash now is better than Gratton in 97.

Ironchef Chris Wok* is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 04:31 AM
  #283
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Cam Neely has reached the point where his legend is more fiction than facts. He was a very mainly a very specialized player and very good at it and admired for it (for good reason). The nly way he copuld shine in this league was to take on physical punishment night after night. It's amazing that he was able to do it but when you think about it, it ain't that amazing.

Cam Neely was great, but Rick Nash is already a better player than Cam Neely was at that age by a huge margin.
Yes, Nash is better than Neely was at the same age but Nash currently is far from the player Neely was in prime.

Can Nash develope in to a player of similar level as Neely in prime? Yes, time will tell. Are the chances good? Debatable, IMHO he has lots of work to do if he wants to do that.

He is a bigger, mobile player, with a better array of shots and more ways to generate offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Maybe people compare them because Nash projects to be a power forward and he has low total assists right now but this is about as misguided as the bunch of twats who use to say Ilya Kovalchuk couldn't pass in his first season. They're not comparable at all.
Agreed, they are not comparable as this point as Nash is miles away from being the physical monster Neely was, he's not currently a powerforward and doesn't dominate opponents physically. Not yet atleast.

But the point is that giving Nash that kind of contract at this point of his career is downright idiotic.

Pepper is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 04:55 AM
  #284
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Couple of things need to be said:

+/- stat is *NOT* useless, it's only useless when people who don't understand it start using it to prove something. It is useful when used right.

Nash has *NOT* scored 50g in this league and whether he will do it is debatable. He is getting paid more than Hedjuk who *HAS* scored 50g.

Nash's total point production was average at best (for a 1st line player that is). 57 points is nothing to write home about. YES, he's a rookie but you need more than 1 season to prove you're good enough to earn more than a player who scored ~100pts 2 seasons ago.

I like Nash as a player, he will be one of the stars in the NHL for a long time most likely. But there's no way to spin this around, for a player of Nash's age & past production in NHL the deal was WAY too rich. You're either a BJ or Nash fanboi if you don't see that.

In few years CBJ will be in cap trouble if the other young players have good seasons, while it's great to have Nash in a long-term deal, it can quickly turn in to an anchor that's holding your team from truly contending. As a Ducks fan with having to face Fedorov's 6M salary every day, I think I know.

Nash had no leverage whatsoever, he wasn't a RFA, he had no arbitration rights and in general he was at Maclean's mercy. Offer a reasonable 3y deal at say 2-3M per year and if he keeps developing THEN offer him the big bucks with a long-term megal deal.

What happens if Nash remains at 40G 60PTS level? Stranger things have happened. Then the CBJ fans have a reason to be worried (for several reasons).

Maclean took a huge gamble by projecting Nash's future production (=value) by drawing a line using only 1 sample. In statistics that's called extremely unreliable projecting, in NHL it's called bad management.

Pepper is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 05:41 AM
  #285
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
 
King'sPawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 8,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Secondly, this is not the same CBA. The compensations are all screwed up now. Your assumption that Rick Nash can't be lost to free agency may be a leap of faith on your part.

All it takes to lure Rick Nash out of Columbus for $5,000,000 is two first round picks, a 2nd and a 3rd.

I'd do that in a heartbeat.
And when that's done, then you can hike up your price.

If I remember correctly, the team who holds the rights to the player still has the right to match. That's not the issue, and, in my opinion, isn't applicable. For any free agent of any caliber, you name your price and the free agent names his price, and you work from there. You find out what other teams are trying to sign him, and offer just as much or a better offer to lure the player away. It's how you negotiate.

What you don't do is overpay just to have the player suck you dry. That's how you get Malik and Lapointe contracts. It's poor management.

You increase your offer considerably to win a bidding war, not prevent one. That's the best way I can sum it up.

King'sPawn is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 05:52 AM
  #286
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Secondly, this is not the same CBA. The compensations are all screwed up now. Your assumption that Rick Nash can't be lost to free agency may be a leap of faith on your part.

All it takes to lure Rick Nash out of Columbus for $5,000,000 is two first round picks, a 2nd and a 3rd.

I'd do that in a heartbeat.
How do you know the compensation for Nash under the new CBA?? The CBA isn't public AFAIK. For the record, a $5M RFA offer under the previous CBA meant loss of 5 1st rounders. Not even Nash is worth that much.

Also Columbus has the right to match any offer made by other teams.

Pepper is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 06:40 AM
  #287
Xoggz22
Registered User
 
Xoggz22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Country: United States
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakethesnake
Well, yes I totally accept that. I totally agree +/- fluctuates and it is really determined by how good the team is. I really have little problem with Nash having a -35 last year coz he was on a bad team and he did score 41 goals
Not trying to join the argument here but look at the entire CBJ team and how bad ALL the +/- were. We had a 19 YO on the 1st line of one of the worst teams in hockey. I'm not going to say if we switched Forsberg and Nash with the same cast Forsberg would be -35 but I can guarantee you he's worse than -20 on that team.

It's a stat that's a function of both individual and team play. Contrary to box score belief, he doesn't stand on the blue line waiting for the puck.

Xoggz22 is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 06:59 AM
  #288
MN_Gopher
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mpls
Posts: 3,318
vCash: 2900
If Minny turned Gaborik loose he could put up much better numbers too. But JL makes his players well rounded. Also MN told Gaborik if he did not like the deal to walk. He did for about 2 weeks in or so and had to get back in the NHL. He did have a down year but i do not think his happiness was to blame. Maybe no training camp and no start to the season. Columbus could have waited and at least countered lower. The problem with Zhederv is if he gets a big deal in a year or two. It will not be the same deal. It will start at 4 mil and go to 8 mil. Avg over 5 years and you are closer to six mil per. So 5.4 and 6 is a good quarter of your cap. I think iggy made to much too. If no one was signed for 5 mil + there is no salary presedent. Its GMs that blink that ruined the NHL in the first place and its allready starting again. This is not basketball. One guy or 2-3 do not make a team. Its a team of 20. Gretzky could not win away from Messier, Kurri, Coffey and company. Pitt with Straka, Lang, Jagr, Lemieux in the late 90s could not win alone.


Last edited by MN_Gopher: 08-08-2005 at 02:41 PM.
MN_Gopher is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 07:06 AM
  #289
#37
Registered User
 
#37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,403
vCash: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
But why is it that when Kovalchuk, or Hejduk, or Iginla get paid more, nobody will blink an eye?

Did you ever think that maybe DM figured he should pay him what a premiere player is worth, despite his age?

That number keeps coming up here. 21... WHO CARES? Whether he's 21 or 27 doesn't matter, he is still one of the league's premiere players. Enough said. Pay him what a player of his calibre is worth and above all don't treat him like some punk and penalize him financially because of his age...
If Kovalchuk gets more money, you won't find me on here defending it. I am not as blind as a lot of the CBJ fans on here.

I am sure you guys will have a hell of a celebration when he finally scores his 100th point in the NHL....

#37 is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 08:51 AM
  #290
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Kovalchuk deserves to earn more than Nash, I don't think anyone argues that.

It's just that Nash's deal is so riduclous that it makes no sense to pay Kovalchuk more than 5.4M

Pepper is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 08:59 AM
  #291
Egil
Registered User
 
Egil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,832
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMoses
But why is it that when Kovalchuk, or Hejduk, or Iginla get paid more, nobody will blink an eye?
Hejduk is making less, Iginla is coming off leading his team to the Stanley Cup Finals, and Kovolchuk (who is a better player than Nash), will sign for LESS than Nash. Watch.

Arbitration? Why be worried about it? The record arbitration award was $7 million dollars, pre rollback (or $5.32 million after rollback). So Rick Nash, if he sets the equivelent of a new record for Salary Arbitration is suddenly going to get more than $5.4 mil a year? HAHAHAH

Egil is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 09:01 AM
  #292
Egil
Registered User
 
Egil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,832
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Secondly, this is not the same CBA. The compensations are all screwed up now. Your assumption that Rick Nash can't be lost to free agency may be a leap of faith on your part.

All it takes to lure Rick Nash out of Columbus for $5,000,000 is two first round picks, a 2nd and a 3rd.

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

But you can MATCH. If someone offered Rick Nash $5 mil a year, you match it, and, LOL, its actually LESS than what you just gave him. Anything over $5 mil is 4 first round picks, which means I don't see any offers for players over $5 mil.

Let Rick Nash try to find an offer sheet. Then match it.

Egil is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 09:23 AM
  #293
rwilson99
Registered User
 
rwilson99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TAMPA, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,895
vCash: 500
Day three... still not done.

rwilson99 is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 09:28 AM
  #294
Art Vandelay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 5,597
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Art Vandelay
Its official:

http://www.bluejackets.com/news/press/arts/2512.0.html

Art Vandelay is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 09:51 AM
  #295
rwilson99
Registered User
 
rwilson99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: TAMPA, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonde 007
MacLean

rwilson99 is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 12:23 PM
  #296
JacketsFanWest
Registered User
 
JacketsFanWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,741
vCash: 500
Nash will earn $3.5 million this season, which is right in line with what he should earn. And it will escalate a million each year, since we know that Nash will be the 1st line center and the future of the team. This team is “Rick Nash & The Columbus Blue Jackets”.

Six years from now he’s not going to have been underpaid and someone who’s had to endure purgatory just to go to the promise land of a large market team offering a huge contract. Plus, players in Europe, especially Russia, are going to see – you come over here and lead the league in goals and you get a huge contract after a few years at the rookie minimum.

All of this overreaction from other teams is just people jumping to conclusions based on false information. Everyone assumed it’s 5.4 million a year and got their panties in a wad. Just like all the yahoos upset that their team’s GM couldn’t sign Kariya for $2.5 million a year, based on TSN’s erroneous information.

JacketsFanWest is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 01:46 PM
  #297
squarelaces
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsguyone
Did you see the post you quoted?

I only ask because your sarcastic response doesn't appear to address what I said.

I said in THREE OR FOUR YEARS ...

Yeah. Three or four. Not next year. Or the year after. THREE OR FOUR.
Nash's contract calls for him to make 3.5M this year - less than Hejduk. Next year it bumps to 4.5 - far less than Iggie and Foppa and roughly equal to Holik this year.

I could do a thorough eval. of the current length and value of CBJ contracts to let you know how much room we'll have under the cap in year THREE, but that's right, I, you, nor anybody knows what they cap will be then. Year FOUR more of the same.

The CBJ have been in the league 4 years and we've sucked most of that time. Those four years have seemed like a really long time to me. I'd rather concentrate on a slightly shorter term. So excuse me for my sarcasm but I don't give a flying puck about other team's salary dilemmas. I repeat, Nash makes 3.5 this year, we are still approx. 10M under the cap, and we have 18 guys signed.

squarelaces is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 03:28 PM
  #298
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
How do you know the compensation for Nash under the new CBA?? The CBA isn't public AFAIK.
Sure it is!

The compensation for a 4-5M contract is just like I said, two 1sts, one 2nd, one 3rd. Compensation for a contract above that is four first rounders. That's the max you can lose now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
For the record, a $5M RFA offer under the previous CBA meant loss of 5 1st rounders. Not even Nash is worth that much.
Oh yes he is. Especially if a team drafts like **** (and you know there are many of those). I've been following this year closely for over 20 years and I have rarely been this high on a player (and while my opinion doesn't mean much, I'm fairly sure others share it in this league).

But we're down to four 1st rounders anyway. Still a huge price, I agree. But some teams could be tempted (I certainly would depending on my team's situation).

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 08:22 PM
  #299
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe
Blue Jacket's Curse
 
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 12,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
Kovolchuk (who is a better player than Nash), will sign for LESS than Nash. Watch.
What's the argument again?
I thought Nash's contract was going to screw up the contracts for the rest of the young players. If you're so sure a player of Kovalchuk's stature will get a smaller contract, then what is the concern?
I thought that was the point.

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe is offline  
Old
08-08-2005, 08:34 PM
  #300
Absolut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London
Country: England
Posts: 1,136
vCash: 500
Nash is an awesome young talent. Don't rip on him because of his contract.

Having said that, the contract is bad. Bad the Jackets and bad for the NHL. If Nash makes $5.4m per year, how much should the Thrashers pay Kovalchuk & Heatley? And what are CBJ going to do if Zherdev outperforms Nash? These types of contracts either set a bad precedent or create a lot of resentment. Neither outcome is a positive one.

Absolut is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.