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Bobby Orr's effect on Brad Park's legacy

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02-04-2014, 08:50 PM
  #1
Crease
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Bobby Orr's effect on Brad Park's legacy

Did the fact that their primes overlap obscure Park's legacy, heighten Park's legacy, or have no effect on Park's legacy? I'm wondering if people would tend to remember Park differently if Orr never laced them up.

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02-04-2014, 08:56 PM
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I think he'd be rated higher by the general public as a "4 time Norris winner." I don't think he'd be rated any differently by the history board, where we realize that without Orr , he would have won 4 (weak) Norrises. Maybe without Orr, the history board would realize that the remainder of Park's competitiom was weak, or maybe not

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02-04-2014, 08:56 PM
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On the other hand, maybe Park isn't given as much offensive freedom without Orr to emulate. Hard to say

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02-04-2014, 09:01 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Without Orr

Without Orr, Brad Park plays center coming up thru youth hockey as do many of the rushing defensemen that populated the NHL in the seventies and eighties.

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02-04-2014, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Without Orr, Brad Park plays center coming up thru youth hockey as do many of the rushing defensemen that populated the NHL in the seventies and eighties.
Aren't Park and Orr the same age? I doubt Park knew about Orr's style coming up from junior hockey and he probably doesn't have time to change positions once he finds out who Bobby Orr is and what his style is.

I think without Bobby Orr, Brad Park is probably viewed as the best defenceman in the 70s and probably gets put on the same level as Potvin and Robinson (fair or not).

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02-04-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Without Orr, Brad Park plays center coming up thru youth hockey as do many of the rushing defensemen that populated the NHL in the seventies and eighties.
Park and Orr are the same age. In Straight Shooter, its mentioned that Park's father switched him from left wing at the age of 15. The reason was because at 5'0, he was going to have problems going up against defensemen who already had their growth spurts. Are you sure Park's transition was influenced by Orr?

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02-04-2014, 09:30 PM
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Knowledge About Youth Hockey Trends

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Originally Posted by Sticks and Pucks View Post
Aren't Park and Orr the same age? I doubt Park knew about Orr's style coming up from junior hockey and he probably doesn't have time to change positions once he finds out who Bobby Orr is and what his style is.

I think without Bobby Orr, Brad Park is probably viewed as the best defenceman in the 70s and probably gets put on the same level as Potvin and Robinson (fair or not).
Canadian youngsters were exposed to travel hockey and minor hockey tournaments from the early fifties on up - Goderich Tournament was drawing teams from Quebec, Pee Wee in the mid fifties. Brad Park played in the Quebec International Pee Wee in the early fifties. Tou also had a variety of provincial and regional championships every year plus the annual federation meeting at the national, provincial and regional association levels. Then you had the scouts at various levels plus television - Montreal Minor Hockey, plus countless newspapers that regularly reported on youth hockey.

Simply there were no secrets and word was out about Bobby Orr and the advantages of playing him on defense well before junior.

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02-04-2014, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Brad Park played in the Quebec International Pee Wee in the early fifties.... Simply there were no secrets and word was out about Bobby Orr and the advantages of playing him on defense well before junior.
Actually C58 he played in the Quebec Pee Wee in 1960 as a member of the Scarborough Lions, the first team from Toronto to compete in that Tournament. Won the Championships beating Montmorency 6-1 in the Final I believe. The Lions had 35 goals for, 1 against overall. His father the Coach, who also Coached Brad's teams from Atom through Midget. The Jr.A Marlboro's originally passed on him (size) out of Midget and he was all set to play Jr.B when the Rangers decided they liked what they were seeing. The Marlies caught wind of it, signing Park themselves after all where he played for 3 (though by then Drafted by NY, he was left to play with Toronto his last 2yrs in Toronto) seasons. That wouldve included games against Orr's Generals of course including one in 65 when they played together on the Marlies, an Exhibition Game vs a touring Soviet Club at the Gardens with Orr & a few other OHA All Stars bolstering the Marlboros line-up. Going into the 3rd, Marlies up 3-1 before losing 4-3.

According to Park however, it wasnt until later that he really studied & then tried to emulate Orr, around 67/68 while recovering from an injury. He had time to watch him on TV, saw him live several times, made note of how he was able to slow things things down in controlling the pace, sucker a guy in, then with a burst of speed leave him standing still. All kinds of tricks that Park hadnt seen from Orr earlier. He then following Orr's lead, but making the moves his own, similar but different.... while playing second fiddle to Orr and outstanding himself, King Clancy of the Leafs often complained "how did we ever let that one get away"?. And your quite right, matter of size primarily, that he might make a useful Center but as a Defenseman just too light, too small according to the Leafs braintrust at that time. And of course they felt the same way about Orr... countless others unfortunately, and never mind the fabulous Goaltenders they once held the rights to as well but let get away... Centers, Wingers....


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02-05-2014, 08:53 AM
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And your quite right, matter of size primarily, that he might make a useful Center but as a Defenseman just too light, too small according to the Leafs braintrust at that time. And of course they felt the same way about Orr... countless others unfortunately, and never mind the fabulous Goaltenders they once held the rights to as well but let get away... Centers, Wingers....
As you mentioned Park's size there is something that always puzzled me. He was always listed at 6'0 but in every team photo (and other pics) where i have seen him standing next to some other players, whose heights are pretty well established, he looks about 5'9. I mean he looks WAY shorter than 6'0. Was he that much of a sloucher or was his true height just overblown? I realize this is a pretty insignificant point but maybe some have an explanation or opinion?

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02-05-2014, 09:39 AM
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As you mentioned Park's size there is something that always puzzled me. He was always listed at 6'0 but in every team photo (and other pics) where i have seen him standing next to some other players, whose heights are pretty well established, he looks about 5'9. I mean he looks WAY shorter than 6'0. Was he that much of a sloucher or was his true height just overblown? I realize this is a pretty insignificant point but maybe some have an explanation or opinion?
It's noted in his biography that his growth spurt put him at 5'8. It seems more likely than not that he's closer to 5'9 than 6'0.

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02-05-2014, 10:00 AM
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It's noted in his biography that his growth spurt put him at 5'8. It seems more likely than not that he's closer to 5'9 than 6'0.
Ya I dont quite understand it but he is listed as being 6'0 and variously 190-200lbs, including on hockeydb & hockeyreference some 30yrs after his career wound down. He certainly "played big" at times but his actual height in inches rather hard to "guesstimate". But ya, Id think probably between 5'8" & 5'10" tops. Thats a deceptive height to be particularly when playing hockey. Can appear a lot taller/bigger on skates than you actually are or on the smallish size depending on posture when skating, digging for the puck or whatever. If a guys heavier as Park was, another major contributor to the illusory attributes of a guy somewhere between 5'8" & 5'10"'ish.

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02-05-2014, 10:23 AM
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Not sure if this link will work...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Boston-Bruin...-/360250858509

...but if not you can google Bruin's team photo 1978-79.

Park is at the end of the middle row next to Secord/Wensink/O'Reilly who are all in the 6'0 -6'1 range and he is at least several inches shorter than any of them. This is consistent with other team photos i have seen him in.

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02-05-2014, 10:42 AM
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If Orr never laced them up...

Quote:
1 Doug Harvey 5'11" 190 1924 1989 1947-1969 Canada
2 Raymond Bourque 6'0" 219 1960 1979-2001 Canada
3 Eddie Shore 5'11" 194 1902 1985 1924-1944 Canada
4 Nicklas Lidström 6'2" 190 1970 1991-Present Sweden
5 Denis Potvin 6'0" 205 1953 1973-1988 Canada
6 Leonard "Red" Kelly 6'0" 195 1927 1947-1967 Canada
7 Viacheslav Fetisov 6'1" 215 1958 1974-1998 Russia
8 Larry Robinson 6'3" 220 1951 1972-1992 Canada
9 Chris Chelios
If Orr never laced them up...I agree with TDMM that Park would have won 4 Norris trophies. He wouldn't have been considered top 4, but somewhere from 5-10.

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02-05-2014, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
Park is at the end of the middle row next to Secord/Wensink/O'Reilly who are all in the 6'0 -6'1 range and he is at least several inches shorter than any of them. This is consistent with other team photos i have seen him in.
Ya, not a six footer. No way. And if you look at that, they seemed to have staged it somewhat whereby that trainer right in front of him is either kneeling down or he's beyond vertically challenged, a Midget. Very clever. Makes Park look like he's got some serious height going on while no doubt standing in a 4" divit or ditch in Boston Gardens ice surface.

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02-05-2014, 01:03 PM
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Posed Team Pics

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, not a six footer. No way. And if you look at that, they seemed to have staged it somewhat whereby that trainer right in front of him is either kneeling down or he's beyond vertically challenged, a Midget. Very clever. Makes Park look like he's got some serious height going on while no doubt standing in a 4" divit or ditch in Boston Gardens ice surface.
Posed team pics with players standing in the back row on a bench are tricky since not all wore skates and the viewer cannot tell.


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02-05-2014, 01:12 PM
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This photo may be deceptive, but Lafleur is 6'0. He is slightly in front of Park who appears taller. Put them side by side and I'd say Park might be just an inch shorter.

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02-05-2014, 01:19 PM
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This photo may be deceptive, but Lafleur is 6'0. He is slightly in front of Park who appears taller. Put them side by side and I'd say Park might be just an inch shorter.
I think it's harder to tell from on ice photos because one or the other may be bending his knees more...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...2-83BosBru.jpg

Park in back row flanked by Hillier (6'1) and Palmer (6'0)...again he's clearly shorter. He appears to be the same height as O'Connell (5'9) who is #21 on the other end.

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02-05-2014, 04:13 PM
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Posed team picks with players standing in the back row on a bench are tricky since not all wore skates and the viewer cannot tell.
Yes very true, and certainly he appears close to Lafleur's height in the photo above, however, Im in the BobbyAwe Camp here on this one. Im guessing tops 5'10". As I said earlier, that height, really anywhere from 5'8"-5'10" can be extremely deceptive, and Park "played big". Sort of an optical illusion. Shape shifter.

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02-05-2014, 04:57 PM
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Even if Park was only 5'11" it sure never slowed him down. He was never overly big for his time.

But without Orr and assuming that he still has the same career I think we rank him a bit higher. Or not. If so, not by much because there was a bit of a transition after Kelly and Harvey were gone. The 1960s were a weak time for defensemen. Sort of like the late 2000s/early 2010s. Different from a peak standpoint.

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02-05-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Park "played big". Sort of an optical illusion. Shape shifter.
That might be just the size of it. Some guys you don't even notice how tall they are because it doesn't matter. They play the right way and aren't affected by others being bigger or stronger. Park, I imagine, was one of the stronger guys in the NHL during his time. He appears to have a similar body structure to Bourque. I don't know how tall Bourque is off hand, but it really didn't matter.

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02-05-2014, 06:38 PM
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...Or not. If so, not by much because there was a bit of a transition after Kelly and Harvey were gone. The 1960s were a weak time for defensemen. Sort of like the late 2000s/early 2010s. Different from a peak standpoint.
A bit sure, but absolutely minimal in terms of the Yeomanry type Defensemen who
were lets say a notch or 3-4-5 below Orr & Park. Through the 60's some incredible guys....

Mohns
McMahon
Green
Stapleton
Pilote
Tremblay
Howell
Horton
Brown
Lapperiere
Cahan
Harris
Boivin
Pronovost'
Seiling
Savard
Stanley
Baun
Harper
Doak
Brewer
Talbot
Jarrett
Vasko
Watson
Langlois
etc

Most of these guys (and just a partial list) were playing
with a full tool box unlike the latter 90's through 00's....

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02-05-2014, 11:50 PM
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A bit sure, but absolutely minimal in terms of the Yeomanry type Defensemen who
were lets say a notch or 3-4-5 below Orr & Park. Through the 60's some incredible guys....

Mohns
McMahon
Green
Stapleton
Pilote
Tremblay
Howell
Horton
Brown
Lapperiere
Cahan
Harris
Boivin
Pronovost'
Seiling
Savard
Stanley
Baun
Harper
Doak
Brewer
Talbot
Jarrett
Vasko
Watson
Langlois
etc

Most of these guys (and just a partial list) were playing
with a full tool box unlike the latter 90's through 00's....
I was looking more for the competition and the amount of HHOFers. Brewer, Baun, Mohns, Vasko, etc. could all play the game and play it well. Not great per se, but well. Neither were ever a Norris threat. Pilote was really fortunate that he didn't have a ton of competition during this time. Horton was who I would consider to be a Norris threat, but there weren't many others. So yeah, it was a deep field of competitive guys, but the elite competition wasn't there. The top end defensemen didn't compare to the best ones in the 1970s, 1980s or even 1990s. It was just a cycle at that time.

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02-06-2014, 12:25 AM
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It was just a cycle at that time.
Indeed, because our guys didnt cycle. Strictly a North-South game, neither encouraged nor approved by the hockey establishment at that time that Defensemen venture beyond the oppositions blue line. It was a different game. Shore, Horton early in his career, Doug Harvey, a few others did carry the puck & rush sporadically but certainly nowhere close to what Orr did when he entered the league. It was his play that inspired the generations that followed combined with the complete & utter angst that the Summit Series caused amongst the officials & Coaching fraternities across Canada at the amateur & Jr levels; that Canada had it all wrong. The Soviets were the true innovators, that they were the ones who were playing the game the way it was meant to be played as so many claimed over here. And that was a game of cycle, constant passing, playing it from the corners, from behind the net....

But no, our system was superior, and our Defenseman were in most cases Stay-At-Home. Those skill-sets taking years to develop, a guy often not fully maturing until his late 20's, even in some cases his 30's. They werent the Sprinters weve seen since Orr, they were Marathon Men. Steady, reliable, seasoned, patient, astute. Not nearly as fully integrated in the offence as what weve witnessed post Bobby Orr & Park, post Summit 72, different, and ya, we had a lot of depth in that type of Defenseman. Highly skilled, but built for North American Pro. Not International play & the larger rinks populated by Whirling Dervishes who didnt play with anywhere nearly as much physicality.

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02-06-2014, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
A bit sure, but absolutely minimal in terms of the Yeomanry type Defensemen who
were lets say a notch or 3-4-5 below Orr & Park. Through the 60's some incredible guys....

Mohns
McMahon
Green
Stapleton
Pilote
Tremblay
Howell
Horton
Brown
Lapperiere
Cahan
Harris
Boivin
Pronovost'
Seiling
Savard
Stanley
Baun
Harper
Doak
Brewer
Talbot
Jarrett
Vasko
Watson
Langlois
etc

Most of these guys (and just a partial list) were playing
with a full tool box unlike the latter 90's through 00's....
Exactly what kind of nostalgic toolbox where those guys playing with?

I know it's the history section and there is some push back to the absurdity of the general forums at times but man 2 wrongs don't make a right here.

Or is the term incredible okay to use for top 10-20ish (some but not all of your list) players in any era at their position?

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02-06-2014, 12:18 PM
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Exactly what kind of nostalgic toolbox where those guys playing with?... I know it's the history section and there is some push back to the absurdity of the general forums at times but man 2 wrongs don't make a right here.
.... And I see youve interpreted my comments as a complete condemnation of 90's & 00 players & specifically Defenseman Hv. Not quite, no, not entirely. The top 15% every bit as good and in several cases superior to their ancestors play on the Blue Line. Bigger, faster, stronger, complete. The game has changed so much since the late 60's & through the 70's that the North-South, much more conservative non-aggressor in terms of Offensively inclined Defenders that comparisons are almost rendered moot. Apples to oranges.

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