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[VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:27 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The Habs did not need a 4th liner, and we don't need size, toughness and speed. We need more TALENT.
A grinder will not make us score more goals.
We need more grinders so that we can follow the game plan perfectly. Dump, chase and grind.

In fact, we need a whole team of grinders if we ever want to win.

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02-03-2014, 10:27 PM
  #77
Beendair Donedat
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Originally Posted by ChoseLa View Post
So Diaz is Bobby Orr and Weiss is Brent Bilodeau? I'm trying to understand from this thread information.
Well "WEISE" is more of a Normand Baron and Diaz like Dennis Potvin.... but you got the idea.

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02-03-2014, 10:27 PM
  #78
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so what about, if he's so fast and gritty, playing him with DD?

Pacioretty Desharnais Weise
Prust/Bourque Eller Gallagher
Bournival Plekanec Gionta
Moen Brière Bourque/Prust

?

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Big Lurk View Post
so what about, if he's so fast and gritty, playing him with DD?

Pacioretty Desharnais Weise
Prust/Bourque Eller Gallagher
Bournival Plekanec Gionta
Moen Brière Bourque/Prust

?
sweet, he's already a top 6 winger

This line up is what MB probably dreams about every night

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02-03-2014, 10:31 PM
  #80
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Wow - you are able to contribute a full post of sarcasm instead of just the one liners we've been blessed with thus far today.

Thank you for your definitive assessment of Weise..we've all waited with bated breath for the straight goods on him tonight.
Well, good to see that, despite the resources available to you, returning the sarcasm is the direction you took. You've got tougher skin, tell me why I'm wrong, not whether or not you'd be surprised if I was.

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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
In your hockey world is is impossible for a 25-year-old in his second true NHL season that hasn't been getting a ton of ice time from a new coach to improve...his entire career path has been determined as you saw him play a few times in his first two seasons....that makes you a seer. Despite being given little ice time with no linemates of consequence, you have his future exactly pegged - good...good for you.
Funny you should play that card, because his first 3 points this year (so 25% of his production) involved either Bieksa, Hamhuis, or both Sedins (in that order, actually). Seems suspicious that the rest of his 9 points are supposed to stick out more than the fact that each game with ice time he "earned" from a previous game was followed by games with progressively less ice time and being sat for a while. Rinse and repeat multiple times. And you don't even have to watch the games to see that the closer/tighter games are, the more reluctant Vancouver was to use him. That doesn't sound like what we're trying to add to the 3rd/4th line at ALL.

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Pardon me if I withhold such certainty until I see him playing on the Montreal Canadiens and being given an opportunity to play in this team's top nine, because that is what's going to happen...sorry to inform you. Look forward to your thoughts about that. :-)
I'm sure it will generate conversation if it ever happens.

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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Bournival's energy has fizzled the past couple of months..he's not even 6-0 and doesn't have the size to inflict much damage physically..he's not a physical player, nor does he fight. I'd be surprised if you don't see more energy from Weise in his first shift than you've seen from Bournival the past month.
And if it came out later on that Bournival is nursing something, that wouldn't surprise me either. But isn't that kind of the role that White would be stepping back into, anyway? Obviously Bournival is way, way, waaaay more worth keeping than Weise (surely we agree there), but I'd be curious on a White vs Weise from you, for sure.

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02-03-2014, 10:31 PM
  #81
FXBrassard
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Originally Posted by pine View Post
We need more grinders so that we can follow the game plan perfectly. Dump, chase and grind.

In fact, we need a whole team of grinders if we ever want to win.
You may laugh about that but the LA Kings won the cup playing this exact way not too long ago, and got pretty far last year too.

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02-03-2014, 10:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FXBrassard View Post
You may laugh about that but the LA Kings won the cup playing this exact way not too long ago, and got pretty far last year too.
yea except they have (and had) enough talent on that team to make 2 competitive teams.

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02-03-2014, 10:35 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
He can certainly bring more grit than Bourque
You hope so, but how much have you actually seen Weise play? As many times as I've seen the Canucks play, I can't tell you about any particularly "physical play" from Weise besides his fondness for hitting with his hands really high (he's the one who got suspended for the head hit on Hall in pre-season, if you remember) because he doesn't stand out in that (or any) way at all (to me, anyway).

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02-03-2014, 10:35 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
AMEN

Seriously, TennisMenace said it best:

- We lost something we weren't using anymore, and that we wouldn't need in the future anyway because of coming youth.
- Weise adds something that we need, even if it's minor.

Bergevin basically sent a rental in exchange for a medium-time investment of size and grit
-Not using Diaz anymore was a stupid coaching decision. One of the leaders in the NHL for least GA/60min of ice. He certainly wasn't this amazing player, but he was perfect for our 3rd pairing. He was also solid with Gorges when PK-Markov were together.

-Weise doesn't add anything we need. Unless he suddenly breaks out here and becomes a productive player, we did not need a 4th liner.

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02-03-2014, 10:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by FXBrassard View Post
You may laugh about that but the LA Kings won the cup playing this exact way not too long ago, and got pretty far last year too.
Richards, Carter, Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Quick

They have more talent up front then we can ever dream to have.

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02-03-2014, 10:39 PM
  #86
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Ok then, keep my post close by. Btw, Weise is a RFA.
And anything between his Q.O. and almost 100% raise would still mean there's no compensation for him signing with another team if he continues to be as unhappy about his role here as apparently he was in Vancouver - i.e. just as likely to lose him for "nothing". But you knew there was no compensation for RFAs who sign elsewhere for under $1.1 million, didn't you.

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02-03-2014, 10:39 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by FXBrassard View Post
You may laugh about that but the LA Kings won the cup playing this exact way not too long ago, and got pretty far last year too.
Well no, they didn't play that way. LA is one of the best possession teams in the NHL.

Teams that play a dump and chase system are bad possession teams. This shouldn't be surprising, they're spending their time getting rid of the puck.

Not to mention the talent they have..

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02-03-2014, 10:39 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
-Not using Diaz anymore was a stupid coaching decision. One of the leaders in the NHL for least GA/60min of ice. He certainly wasn't this amazing player, but he was perfect for our 3rd pairing. He was also solid with Gorges when PK-Markov were together.

-Weise doesn't add anything we need. Unless he suddenly breaks out here and becomes a productive player, we did not need a 4th liner.
Exactly. Defense looked great without Diaz in the lineup.

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02-03-2014, 10:43 PM
  #89
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The way I see it Weise is being labelled as a guy who is fast enough and skilled enough to keep up with the play, even if he's not scoring alot. I wouldn't mind throwing him on DD's wing for a few reasons:

1)DD line needs a digger. They have one in Gally, but Gally is as useful on another line and we need to rebuild a top9
2)DD is a good playmaker, and is great with two big wingers (Even if they aren't exactly vicious powerforwards)
3)Weise is good enough to keep up, and all he has to do is be a **** disturber in the slot and the corners. Him coming over to a new team is going to give him that energy that players get out the gate, and he might hit the ground running if he's thrown a good shot right away
4)Gally can move to the Eller line, where he and Lars have proven chemistry. Bournival or Briere stays with Plekanec, and DD with Maxpac. Gallagher will get more looks as the shooter on a line with Eller, where he's obviously not on the DD line.

He's one of the guys who is better and shooting the puck, but he rarely gets a chance to.

5)We know we can go back to Gally on DD's wing anytime and we'll be right back to where we are, but we should take a chance to not only get out of our scoring dryspell, but re-install proven chemistry on three attacking lines while spreading out our smaller players more.

Obviously this is just what I would try and I don't expect it, but I think Weise should be given a chance to be a band-aid as a digger/guy in the slot, at least for a few games. We have nothing to lose, and if given an opportunity, he could end up having chemistry.

Just for a few games:

Briere-Plekanec-Gionta
Pacioretty-DD-Weise
Prust-Eller-Gallagher
Moen-Bournival-Bourque

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02-03-2014, 10:43 PM
  #90
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...so, other than the SuperFriends, whom we know shall never be allowed to separate as long as Therrien has the bench, what's the plan??...

Desharnais - SuperFriends
Pacioretty - Superfriends
Gallagher - not allowed to leave SuperFriends
Plekanec
Gionta
Briere
Eller
Galchenyuk
Prust
Bourque
White
Moen
Bournival
Parros
Weise



...honestly, doesn't Weise seem a little...redundant??...

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02-03-2014, 10:44 PM
  #91
Beendair Donedat
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Originally Posted by pine View Post
We need more grinders so that we can follow the game plan perfectly. Dump, chase and grind.

In fact, we need a whole team of grinders if we ever want to win.
The bottom line is we don't have the elite level talent up front or on the point to actually go anywhere.... We have an elite goaltender, one elite defenseman, an elite prospect with potential in Galchenyuk.... And a whole LOT of filler mixed with some players that can produce. Pacioretty is a solid piece. Gallagher is another solid piece up front. We have an older Plekanec (who probably doesn't figure into the long term plans) and a decent but inconsistent center in Lars Eller.... After that it drops off pretty sharply. Our team's point leader has 37 ****ING points.

When Bergevin came aboard, he said it would take a 5 year plan to implement, and that he wasn't going to trade away prospects or draft picks. That he would in fact build through the draft. He also said that he would make this team tougher to play against.

Now that limits his options to make trades, because quite frankly, nobody wants to trade chicken soup for chicken ****.... And there is a lot of chicken **** throughout this Habs lineup. You also have a very low salary cap this season which also prevents much from happening....Raphael Diaz, while a nice little right handed master of the poke check and no physical contact, is chicken ****.... For an offensive defenseman, he wasn't that offensive. He was a UFA. He was in line for a raise. It's nothing personal, it's just business.... They've likely had discussions, Diaz mentioned what he planned to ask for as a UFA and Bergevin pulled the trigger on a trade. We get Weise - A kid who is younger, who will be an RFA, who is very fast and can hit and will fight... Not a great fighter, but he will stick up for a teammate. But he gives this team some size and some options, and he may be able to put things together in Montreal with a different coach and system.

Now the Habs are tougher to play against, prospect Beaulieu looks to have graduated into the big time, and it allows Bergevin to have some more options at the trade deadline. The younger guys that are to be part of the rebuild are now going to get their chance to play...

And perhaps Bergevin simply saw the writing on the wall. On Super Bowl weekend, with this team coming off a couple of wins after playing some very brutal hockey... The Habs get two home games and manage to take 1 point.... In tough games, with the playoffs on the line, the Habs weren't good enough... I don't think this team is going anywhere this year, and I think it's time Bergevin started looking at moving veterans like Moen, Markov, Plekanec, Briere and Gionta. Acquire more draft picks and prospects, or guys that have size and can score (ala Chris Stewart). I think you'll see a bunch of more moves at the deadline, especially if they keep losing.

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02-03-2014, 10:44 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
-Not using Diaz anymore was a stupid coaching decision. One of the leaders in the NHL for least GA/60min of ice. He certainly wasn't this amazing player, but he was perfect for our 3rd pairing. He was also solid with Gorges when PK-Markov were together.

-Weise doesn't add anything we need. Unless he suddenly breaks out here and becomes a productive player, we did not need a 4th liner.
Not using Diaz anymore was a decision that was brought by himself. He obviously wasn't performing good enough in the training sessions to be deemed worthy of a spot on the team's roster. It's not like he was traded away after a single game of healthy scratch; he had nearly a month of time to prove he should be re-instated, and he didn't made the crack.

Now, I know many people here like to go all drama-queen on our coaching staff, but I'd think the professionals assessing the players know best which ones performed best in training to deserve a roster spot. Especially if they are healthy scratch.

And Weise is 6'2"; size that we DO needed. Especially on the right wing, where our biggest player happens to be LOUIS FRIKKIN' LEBLANC, can you imagine? Here was our right-wing depth chart:

- Gionta
- Gallagher
- Briere
- Thomas
- Leblanc

While Gallagher is above reproach, he's not exactly a big guy. Adding a 6'2" winger in there might do us some good. Weise is allegedly ahead of Leblanc and Thomas already.

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02-03-2014, 10:45 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well no, they didn't play that way. LA is one of the best possession teams in the NHL.

Teams that play a dump and chase system are bad possession teams. This shouldn't be surprising, they're spending their time getting rid of the puck.

Not to mention the talent they have..
Yes, they played that way. They dumped the puck almost every single time and retrieved it because they had a team full of grinders. Really big and strong grinders. They just outmuscled everyone. Even their top players (Kopitar, Richards, Brown, Carter) played like grinders.

Every team play a dump and chase system, by the way. Even the Hawks. Some just do it more than others. To be a good possession team you just gotta be really good along the boards, or have a highly skilled team (Chicago or Pittsburgh)

My point is that with Moen, Prust, Bournival and now Weise, we're starting to get a pretty good bottom 6 that can skate, hit, and keep the puck along the boards.

There isn't a system on earth that would turn this team into a good possession team, our top 6 is way way too soft, so was our defence, we're taking good steps in that aspect getting rid of Diaz.

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02-03-2014, 10:47 PM
  #94
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I'm all for unleashing the offensive Weise and see how offensive he can become. Problem is.....will Therrien want to do that? Geez, I would even be for putting Weise with DD and Pac if in the end it means giving Gallagher back with Elller. Somehow though....I don't see it happening.

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02-03-2014, 10:48 PM
  #95
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To those saying Weise doesn't bring anything we need, I guess you guys prefer Thomas or Parros in that 4th line slot.

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02-03-2014, 10:50 PM
  #96
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I have never seen such a heated debate for such a minor transaction. Diaz is an upcoming UFA who will expect at least 2.5 Mil (not worth it). Weise actually can play hockey. This could be one of those trades we look back on and smile because I believe Weise has decent upside. Let's give him a chance...

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02-03-2014, 10:51 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by FXBrassard View Post
To those saying Weise doesn't bring anything we need, I guess you guys prefer Thomas or Parros in that 4th line slot.
Exactly! Habs need legitimate 4th liners who can actually take a shift without hurting you.

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02-03-2014, 10:52 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by StellerEller View Post
The way I see it Weise is being labelled as a guy who is fast enough and skilled enough to keep up with the play, even if he's not scoring alot. I wouldn't mind throwing him on DD's wing for a few reasons:

1)DD line needs a digger. They have one in Gally, but Gally is as useful on another line and we need to rebuild a top9
2)DD is a good playmaker, and is great with two big wingers (Even if they aren't exactly vicious powerforwards)
3)Weise is good enough to keep up, and all he has to do is be a **** disturber in the slot and the corners. Him coming over to a new team is going to give him that energy that players get out the gate, and he might hit the ground running if he's thrown a good shot right away
4)Gally can move to the Eller line, where he and Lars have proven chemistry. Bournival or Briere stays with Plekanec, and DD with Maxpac. Gallagher will get more looks as the shooter on a line with Eller, where he's obviously not on the DD line.

He's one of the guys who is better and shooting the puck, but he rarely gets a chance to.

5)We know we can go back to Gally on DD's wing anytime and we'll be right back to where we are, but we should take a chance to not only get out of our scoring dryspell, but re-install proven chemistry on three attacking lines while spreading out our smaller players more.

Obviously this is just what I would try and I don't expect it, but I think Weise should be given a chance to be a band-aid as a digger/guy in the slot, at least for a few games. We have nothing to lose, and if given an opportunity, he could end up having chemistry.

Just for a few games:

Briere-Plekanec-Gionta
Pacioretty-DD-Weise
Prust-Eller-Gallagher
Moen-Bournival-Bourque
That's uncanny - was just about to post this....

This deal opens up some other options for both Therrien and Bergevin.
Throw Weise with DD and Patch and move Eller back with Gallagher.

Briere Pleks Gio
Patch DD Weise
Prust Eller Gally
Moen Bournival Bourque

When Chucky and White are back- and Bourque likely gone -

Briere Pleks Gio
Patch DD Weise
Chuck Eller Gally
Moen White Prust/Bournival

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02-03-2014, 10:56 PM
  #99
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Weise has more points than 3.3 mil Bork.

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02-03-2014, 10:56 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
And Weise is 6'2"; size that we DO needed.
Yes, we definitely, without question, do need size...but in our top two/three lines. Weise doesn't fit into that. How does a 4rth line winger with size actually help our pitiful offense?

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