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[VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2

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02-05-2014, 08:09 PM
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02-05-2014, 08:09 PM
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How are we already at part 3 lmao

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02-05-2014, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Everybody over and over again says Bergevin has made horrible deals and that the coaching is atrocious...but there's no factual basis for these things whatsoever...
There's tons of factual basis. You just reject it as "useless stats" and expect us to take your words on blind faith. But the underlying numbers are there, and really the problems are plain to see if one looks. I'll stick with the evidence, myself.

Of course, even if one rejects the underlying factors, one might think the Habs' record over the last 25+ games would be worrying enough. A 11-12-3 stretch seems to be the sort of thing that would warrant examination to see if there might not be an underlying problem.

Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Bergevin and Therrien took over a team that was last in their conference. Without signing any outrageous free agents or trading away draft picks..the team in the past 95 games has more points than every eastern team except Boston and Pittsburgh..
You know, the fact that in the same sentence you point out that Bergevin did essentially nothing and that the team took a big lift up kind of indicates how little Bergevin is actually responsible for it. He's been riding inevitable regression as the team's good players got healthy. Have a look one day and compare the rosters the Habs ended 2011-2012 with and what they started 2012-2013 with. It's not the same roster at all.

Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I really find it difficult to understand why so many don't take that approach.
Because we have eyes, we have evidence, and we can see that the team is playing atrociously and well below its talent level. And because we're tired of bad teams that survive on goaltending and the Habs have too much talent to need to live like that.

Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
but when a trade happens I like to wait to see what happens before judging the trade....it's just the fair, intelligent and reasonable way to do it.
No, actually, it is not. You have to judge a trade, like any decision, based on the information available at the time. If tomorrow morning Weise or Diaz have a career-ending injury, say, that does not affect the value of the decision. If Diaz suddenly turns into Lidstrom or Weise into Leclair, that doesn't make the decision to make the trade worse or better, because that's not a likely outcome based on the information available at this point. Hindsight is a dangerous thing to use when evaluating decision processes.

Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Heck..people will rely on posts from other team's fans to criticize a trade before they ever saw the player.
We have masses of information and rely on people who've seen the players and whose opinions we trust, which we correlate with the information we have. It's no longer the old days, information is plentiful and travels easily.

Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Weise was called a minor leaguer, fourth line plug a dozen times before he ever played a minute for the Habs. Did he look useless last night?
Well, he looked like a useful fourth-liner who can beat on the likes of McGrattan and Westgarth but can't really handle top-6 forwards. Kind of like what we expected. He did not look like a player that was as useful as Diaz, especially given that the Habs already had a need for a right defenseman before they traded one away.

But given your spiel above, I am surprised you're inviting us to judge a player based on having seen him once, while rejecting any additional information we may have previously acquired on him. Surely you can't think that one game of observation can tell us all we need to know about a player?

Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I can remember back in my 20's laughing at a team picking a certain player only to see that player become a very key piece for that team...
Again, hindsight is 20/20, but the only valid way to judge picks is based on the information available at the time. Picks, as I'm sure you know, have a great deal of uncertainty attached to them.

Anyone can get lucky once in a while. That doesn't mean that picking the guy was awesome, anymore than it was a good idea to bet your life savings on the double-zero at the roulette if you win.

I agree with you that we should be mindful that scouts do have plenty of information that we don't, but I've seen too many teams waste picks on big "coke machines" trying to find the next Lucic (as if Lucic was that good to begin with) not to be extremely skeptical of this approach, and I can't help but worry about the motivation for a pick like Connor Crisp.

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02-05-2014, 10:30 PM
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Dueling threads on the same subject.

I like the concept.

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03-02-2014, 01:05 PM
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Habs are 5-0-1 since acquiring Weise! Short sample, but I think that we he brings something that the Habs needed, and losing Diaz open a spot for our prospects. Seems like a good trade, so far.

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