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[VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2

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Old
02-03-2014, 09:56 PM
  #101
25get
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Originally Posted by Peteux View Post
Let's talk about hits/TOI, shall we?
Weise: 65 hits in 341 minutes, 3G 9A.
Bourque: 59 hits in 639 minutes, 7G 2A.

If only Bourque could have twice the points in twice the time.

Now we can not expect much offense from this guy.
He never was a great scorer.

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02-03-2014, 09:57 PM
  #102
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I also think people are going to be a bit disappointed when they see this "speed" they're reading about in action. And here's hoping he brings his physicality of '12/13 (when his physicality - really his only attribute - earned him a re-signing) instead of what he has been showing this year (when he was clearly being shopped by the team well before the deadline because he's barely even bringing that, despite a few extra points).

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02-03-2014, 09:59 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I also think people are going to be a bit disappointed when they see this "speed" they're reading about in action. And here's hoping he brings his physicality of '12/13 (when his physicality - really his only attribute - earned him a re-signing) instead of what he has been showing this year (when he was clearly being shopped by the team well before the deadline because he's barely even bringing that, despite a few extra points).
While he is not Patrick Marleau, his skating is very good. You see, some of us have seen him play.

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02-03-2014, 09:59 PM
  #104
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That's uncanny - was just about to post this....

This deal opens up some other options for both Therrien and Bergevin.
Throw Weise with DD and Patch and move Eller back with Gallagher.

Briere Pleks Gio
Patch DD Weise
Prust Eller Gally
Moen Bournival Bourque

When Chucky and White are back- and Bourque likely gone -

Briere Pleks Gio
Patch DD Weise
Chuck Eller Gally
Moen White Prust/Bournival
...just so we're clear, you guys think that Dale Weise should play on our Top offensive unit??...really??...

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02-03-2014, 10:00 PM
  #105
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And fine if Weise proves to be a more offensive version than the other 2 teams he played for thought he could...but in a grinding team....will Weise accept it? You heard Bergevin,s opinion of Weise? Do we think they acquired him so he'd be showing his skills off a top 6?

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02-03-2014, 10:00 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Tyson View Post
Weise has more points than 3.3 mil Bork.
Diaz has had more points in every season compared to Weise except this year, where he is a point behind...I fail to see how Weise offensive talent is of any significant use.

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02-03-2014, 10:00 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Not using Diaz anymore was a decision that was brought by himself. He obviously wasn't performing good enough in the training sessions to be deemed worthy of a spot on the team's roster. It's not like he was traded away after a single game of healthy scratch; he had nearly a month of time to prove he should be re-instated, and he didn't made the crack.

Now, I know many people here like to go all drama-queen on our coaching staff, but I'd think the professionals assessing the players know best which ones performed best in training to deserve a roster spot. Especially if they are healthy scratch.

And Weise is 6'2"; size that we DO needed. Especially on the right wing, where our biggest player happens to be LOUIS FRIKKIN' LEBLANC, can you imagine? Here was our right-wing depth chart:

- Gionta
- Gallagher
- Briere
- Thomas
- Leblanc

While Gallagher is above reproach, he's not exactly a big guy. Adding a 6'2" winger in there might do us some good. Weise is allegedly ahead of Leblanc and Thomas already.
Despite whatever poor ethic you want to pin on Diaz and his performances, he was still better than Murray. This is not debatable.

Our coach has taken a bunch of bad decisions, but if you rather be blinded by your love for the team and refuse to see what is right there in front of your face, then that's your prerogative. But don't call other people drama queens for obvious poor decisions.

Who cares if Weise is 6'2 if he isn't going to score. What will it change?
He isn't going to replace Gallagher or Gionta. He will probably be playing on Eller's wing replacing one of Bourque-Moen-Prust, who are all comparable in size. The guy being scratched will likely be Parros (who's bigger), so technically speaking, our roster up front actually won't be bigger.


Hey, maybe it'll work. He's just 25, so he could be more of a late bloomer, but I'm not overly confident about it. At 25 and already with his 3rd team, that usually isn't a good sign.

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:02 PM
  #108
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Nicer than any goal Briere has scored as a Hab.

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02-03-2014, 10:02 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...just so we're clear, you guys think that Dale Weise should play on our Top offensive unit??...really??...
He could top out as a third liner, let's not get carried away. Play a north south game, play responsible defense, finish your checks and stick up for your teammates. Another Prust/Moen type.

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Tyson View Post
Exactly! Habs need legitimate 4th liners who can actually take a shift without hurting you.
Thought it was pretty funny when I just found this (from end of last season) after reading your post:

Quote:
What'd he do?

Weise had another quiet year with just three goals and three assists in 40 games. It was an improvement over his four goals and four assists in 68 games last season, but even with a full season, Weise wouldn't have made much more of an impact. His +/- rating of -7 was tied for last on the team with Zack Kassian and Andrew Alberts, so essentially what that means is when Weise stepped on the ice, bad things happened.

So was he any good?

For a fourth liner, this is kind of a loaded question. Obviously a fourth liners role will be limited with the team, but Weise was still able to bring a physical presence to a team that often had trouble matching up with opponents physically. In what is more of a silver lining than anything, two of Weise's three goals were game-winners for Vancouver. Weise was often the odd man out on the fourth line, struggling to find his role as the season went on. Overall, his physical presence was probably his most valuable attribute to the team.
And he has already fallen out of disfavour (again?) despite Tortorella apparently looking forward to being reunited with him:

Quote:
John Tortorella told the Vancouver Sun today:

“That hurt us when we lost him (from the Rangers) as far as our depth and a little bit of our toughness,” explained Tortorella. “I won’t lie, Weiser and I have had a road of trying to understand one another. I thought we were beginning to get an understanding. He was improving as a player. He brings a lot of things. I love his willingness. He can play and give you minutes and I think you can bounce him around on different lines. So I’m anxious to get back with Dale and see where we go.”
Guess we know "where they went". At least it's a count of someone (half) worth listening to saying that Weise "brings a lot of things", and that he can "bounce around lines". Lord knows consistency isn't any part of the Habs' development blueprint...

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:04 PM
  #111
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You may laugh about that but the LA Kings won the cup playing this exact way not too long ago, and got pretty far last year too.
That is not correct. Prior to Sutter's arrival, Terry Murray was more hardcore with dump-and-grind and L.A couldn't score to save their lives. Sutter emphasized puck possession.

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02-03-2014, 10:05 PM
  #112
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Yes, they played that way. They dumped the puck almost every single time and retrieved it because they had a team full of grinders. Really big and strong grinders. They just outmuscled everyone. Even their top players (Kopitar, Richards, Brown, Carter) played like grinders.

Every team play a dump and chase system, by the way. Even the Hawks. Some just do it more than others. To be a good possession team you just gotta be really good along the boards, or have a highly skilled team (Chicago or Pittsburgh)

My point is that with Moen, Prust, Bournival and now Weise, we're starting to get a pretty good bottom 6 that can skate, hit, and keep the puck along the boards.

There isn't a system on earth that would turn this team into a good possession team, our top 6 is way way too soft, so was our defence, we're taking good steps in that aspect getting rid of Diaz.
Hmmm, no, they didn't. And no, the Hawks do not play a dump and chase system. You just crapped away your credibility there.

Teams dump pucks, sure, it happens like during line changes or when they're trapped in their zone. But good teams like LA and Chicago, to keep the puck as they move through zones.

Again, bad possession teams do not play a dump and chase system. They just don't.

We didn't play a dump and chase system last year and we were a very good possession team. We are purposely playing this crap system and it's costing us big time.

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02-03-2014, 10:05 PM
  #113
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Nicer than any goal Briere has scored as a Hab.
Did you miss the Boston game?

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:06 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I also think people are going to be a bit disappointed when they see this "speed" they're reading about in action. And here's hoping he brings his physicality of '12/13 (when his physicality - really his only attribute - earned him a re-signing) instead of what he has been showing this year (when he was clearly being shopped by the team well before the deadline because he's barely even bringing that, despite a few extra points).
Better being disappointed by a guy who is on the ice than one in the pressbox.

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02-03-2014, 10:06 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...just so we're clear, you guys think that Dale Weise should play on our Top offensive unit??...really??...
Well, no, with Gally going back to the EGG line (assuming Weise plays with DD), I think most here believe Eller's line would become the defacto top offensive line (well, when Galch joins the line specifically).

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02-03-2014, 10:07 PM
  #116
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This board has completely lost its collective heads. I can't believe our lunatic fan base is up in arms over the return we got for Raphael Diaz. The entire NHL knew Diaz was on the block. There are many reasons why teams weren't willing to give much up for him. He's a so-so NHL hockey player and we desperately need some size.

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02-03-2014, 10:08 PM
  #117
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While he is not Patrick Marleau, his skating is very good. You see, some of us have seen him play.
Well, then you know that "very good" is almost certainly going to be less visually spectacular than some are expecting to see; especially since it's attached to a hockey I.Q. that'll likely waste most of that speed covering "useless ice".

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02-03-2014, 10:08 PM
  #118
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I was really hoping for Sestito but I'll look into this guy

My initial reaction is we just threw away Diaz for nothing much and Diaz is a good D

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02-03-2014, 10:10 PM
  #119
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This board has completely lost its collective heads. I can't believe our lunatic fan base is up in arms over the return we got for Raphael Diaz. The entire NHL knew Diaz was on the block.
Not sure how much this contributes to anything when we know that Weise's availability was supposedly made public via a mass e-mail to the other 29 GMs. So everyone knew that both guys were clearly available. Now, back to their asset worth and our team's asset management.

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02-03-2014, 10:10 PM
  #120
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I'm a big fan of letting a guy atleast play acouple games until you decide how you feel about the trade. You guys should do the same, Diaz wasn't playing anyway so is it that big of a deal?

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02-03-2014, 10:11 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Tyson View Post
He could top out as a third liner, let's not get carried away. Play a north south game, play responsible defense, finish your checks and stick up for your teammates. Another Prust/Moen type.
...so he's another Prust/Moen/White/Bourque/better-than-Parros...so, with Bournival in there, we can now ice 2 4th lines??...

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02-03-2014, 10:13 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Habstraction View Post
Better being disappointed by a guy who is on the ice than one in the pressbox.
Wait... you've never heard of Therrien's "clever" defense pairings, or putting players in the press box once trade talks have commenced? Man... you've got a lot to learn. But as always, I'm

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02-03-2014, 10:14 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
...so he's another Prust/Moen/White/Bourque/better-than-Parros...so, with Bournival in there, we can now ice 2 4th lines??...
Yes. Barring more trades we will be icing two fourth lines going forward.

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:16 PM
  #124
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The bottom line is we don't have the elite level talent up front or on the point to actually go anywhere.... We have an elite goaltender, one elite defenseman, an elite prospect with potential in Galchenyuk.... And a whole LOT of filler mixed with some players that can produce. Pacioretty is a solid piece. Gallagher is another solid piece up front. We have an older Plekanec (who probably doesn't figure into the long term plans) and a decent but inconsistent center in Lars Eller.... After that it drops off pretty sharply. Our team's point leader has 37 ****ING points.

When Bergevin came aboard, he said it would take a 5 year plan to implement, and that he wasn't going to trade away prospects or draft picks. That he would in fact build through the draft. He also said that he would make this team tougher to play against.
à
Now that limits his options to make trades, because quite frankly, nobody wants to trade chicken soup for chicken ****.... And there is a lot of chicken **** throughout this Habs lineup. You also have a very low salary cap this season which also prevents much from happening....Raphael Diaz, while a nice little right handed master of the poke check and no physical contact, is chicken ****.... For an offensive defenseman, he wasn't that offensive. He was a UFA. He was in line for a raise. It's nothing personal, it's just business.... They've likely had discussions, Diaz mentioned what he planned to ask for as a UFA and Bergevin pulled the trigger on a trade. We get Weise - A kid who is younger, who will be an RFA, who is very fast and can hit and will fight... Not a great fighter, but he will stick up for a teammate. But he gives this team some size and some options, and he may be able to put things together in Montreal with a different coach and system.

Now the Habs are tougher to play against, prospect Beaulieu looks to have graduated into the big time, and it allows Bergevin to have some more options at the trade deadline. The younger guys that are to be part of the rebuild are now going to get their chance to play...

And perhaps Bergevin simply saw the writing on the wall. On Super Bowl weekend, with this team coming off a couple of wins after playing some very brutal hockey... The Habs get two home games and manage to take 1 point.... In tough games, with the playoffs on the line, the Habs weren't good enough... I don't think this team is going anywhere this year, and I think it's time Bergevin started looking at moving veterans like Moen, Markov, Plekanec, Briere and Gionta. Acquire more draft picks and prospects, or guys that have size and can score (ala Chris Stewart). I think you'll see a bunch of more moves at the deadline, especially if they keep losing.
Great post.

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Old
02-03-2014, 10:16 PM
  #125
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I'm a big fan of letting a guy atleast play acouple games until you decide how you feel about the trade. You guys should do the same, Diaz wasn't playing anyway so is it that big of a deal?
Well we would have to give him more than a couple of games....'cause just a couple of games means as nothing as not letting him any games whatsoever. And that's both ways. It's not because Diaz will score against us that it makes him Raymond Bourque. Just like it's not because Weise hits everything in sight that it makes him the ultimate warrior. You actually need to let the dust settle to have a better opinion. But then, it's like everything else...if we have fun saying who won a draft immediately the same day it happened....we should be allowed to voice our opinion the same minute a deal happens. It is a board after all. And opinions are subject to change. Not sure why people can't deal with that.

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