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Round 2, Vote 13 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
02-10-2014, 01:07 PM
  #176
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well if one wanted to use a single series, he was -6 against canada in that 72 series, but that would be ridiculous right?

I think it would be actually and the microscopic focus on Sundin above is basically worthless unless that same strategy is applied evenly across the board, especially when players have 1500 plus games to their resume.

No one ever claimed that Sundin was "great" in the playoffs, his resume is so-so but his team mates certainly didn't help him out to any great extent, which is factually true when compared to other players.

Why is this so hard for some to grasp?
So I guess all the individual instances of teammates having prolific playoff contributions (even greater than Sundin's in some cases) are just to be conveniently ignored since they don't fit the "terrible teammates" narrative?

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02-10-2014, 01:39 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
The suggestion is merely that Sundin had decent teammates to work with. Toronto's other forwards were no worse than average during the early 2000s when most would agree he was in his prime. Goaltending was always strong as well with Joseph and Belfour. Defense was a weak link.

Yet it's oft repeated that his teammates held him back during the Toronto years. 2002 is the easiest example to use in counter to this argument. The fact that he was outscored by other teammates in other playoff years on multiple occasions is also indicative that just maybe his supporting cast wasn't so poor afterall.
If the 2002 was the easiest example, you can see why some of us believe this argument is a stretch. Eight playoffs in Toronto - led them in scoring four times, finished 2nd twice, was injured once (the remaining playoff, 1996, saw him finish 4th with 4 points in 6 games). They're such small sample sizes each year that it's unrealistic to expect him to lead his teams in scoring 13 times in 15 seasons like he did in the regular season (the other two seasons being 2nd place finishes).

I don't see this as being some form of damning evidence in light of his 70 points in 77 playoff games with the team in this stretch (0.91 points-per-game). Gary Roberts was the only player remotely close to that pace on Toronto, scoring 40 points in 50 games from 2001-2004 (Sundin scored 33 points in 35 games in this time frame). Everyone else was 0.68 or lower. It's comparing a 75-point pace to a 56-point pace.

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02-10-2014, 01:56 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Yeah, Sundin never seemed to put his beast mode on in the playoffs. But what does "natural leader" mean though? Sundin thrived as a captain on the national team and I can't remember any "captaincy issues" he had in Toronto. Or do you think it affected his game negatively? Or his team? You know "natural leader" stereotype #1 Mark "Leadership Award" Messier was a bad captain & influence in Vancouver. Some Preachers are only effective when the Choir is on the same note a decides to sing along to the tune.

Markus Näslund, there you have a dubious captain.
I know you're just taking an opportunity to insult Mark Messier some more (as you do), but if I can bounce off of this, Mats Sundin actually won the Mark Messier Leadership Award, and as was stated in a previous round, his statistics did not plummet upon receiving the captaincy the way Mike Modano's did. There's middle-ground between not being a "natural leader" and not being Jean Beliveau.

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02-10-2014, 02:13 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
... his statistics did not plummet upon receiving the captaincy the way Mike Modano's did. There's middle-ground between not being a "natural leader" and not being Jean Beliveau.
Ya, sure enough there is.... in Modano's defense though, had a bad groin pull coming into that season & just prior to Training Camp learned he'd lost million$ in an investment, so called friend involved, not a happy camper & very much distracted on top of recovering slowly.

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02-10-2014, 02:24 PM
  #180
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Voted.

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02-10-2014, 03:40 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Sundin's performances in the playoffs remind me of Thornton's. Neither guy is a choker, in spite of the silly labels, but neither ever seemed to raise his level of play, either. Both have laid-back personalities, and are not natural leaders.
This just seems so weird to me. I don't think there is any Swedish player the last 20 years that comes even close to Sundin in terms of being perceived as a "natural leader" in Sweden. I can't say whether the perception is true or not, but is there any reason why you claim Sundin was not a natural leader?

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02-10-2014, 04:08 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by matnor View Post
This just seems so weird to me. I don't think there is any Swedish player the last 20 years that comes even close to Sundin in terms of being perceived as a "natural leader" in Sweden. I can't say whether the perception is true or not, but is there any reason why you claim Sundin was not a natural leader?
In the NHL, Sundin never seemed to raise his intensity level in the playoffs; he just went out, putting up points, doing his thing. It took someone like Gary Roberts to really spark Toronto. Obviously, it's impossible to know what is going on in the heads of players or in the locker room, but Sundin did give the impression of treating an NHL playoff game like any other game.

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02-10-2014, 04:37 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In the NHL, Sundin never seemed to raise his intensity level in the playoffs; he just went out, putting up points, doing his thing. It took someone like Gary Roberts to really spark Toronto. Obviously, it's impossible to know what is going on in the heads of players or in the locker room, but Sundin did give the impression of treating an NHL playoff game like any other game.
Not sure that your point holds. Great hockey captains in the history of the Canadiens, Maple Leafs and the NHL in general did the same thing - they treated every game like it was a playoff game.

Seems like the fault lies in the interpretation not in the captain.

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02-10-2014, 04:43 PM
  #184
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Agree with most you say 1958-till you mentioned a captain plays every game like a playoff game.Im having fun so not to be taken seriously but the great Edmonton Oilers lost 11 to 0 Hartford Whalers now Wayne G was missing for game but Mark Messier was a minus 6.

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02-10-2014, 04:53 PM
  #185
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About to vote. I think the Top-5 is pretty clear.

On another note... I can really only see three remaining players I could possibly vote in at this point (and they might even not become available for voting)

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02-10-2014, 05:00 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In the NHL, Sundin never seemed to raise his intensity level in the playoffs; he just went out, putting up points, doing his thing. It took someone like Gary Roberts to really spark Toronto. Obviously, it's impossible to know what is going on in the heads of players or in the locker room, but Sundin did give the impression of treating an NHL playoff game like any other game.
What exactly did Gary Roberts do that Mats Sundin did not? 19 points in 19 games in 2002. That's great. Good for Gary Roberts. Mats Sundin scores 9 points in 7 games against Chicago in 1995, 7 points in 5 games against Buffalo in 1999, 9 points in 7 games against New Jersey in 2001, a point on every goal against Carolina in 2002, and a noticeably better playoff points-per-game number than Roberts in their Toronto overlap and he's not someone who sparked Toronto? Why? Because Roberts helped the Maple Leafs beat Ottawa once? Sundin helped the Maple Leafs beat Ottawa three times! With points in 12 of those 14 games (15 points in total).

He had a bad series against New Jersey in 2000 (so did Thomas, Berezin, and basically every other Maple Leaf forward), but some of this is taken too far - and without any statistical evidence or meaningful support from an outside source. It's not "impossible to know what is going on in the heads of players." There are interviews for that. And I don't see any that say Sundin wasn't a leader.

You know what we do have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek King
What made Mats a great leader wasn’t the rah-rah stuff or keeping everyone upbeat all the time. He wasn’t going to get in someone’s face and yell at them every day.

He led by example, and for a lot of guys that was the best leadership. When you play against a guy that you hated to play against because he was so good, then you have the chance to play with him and see how good he really is, you see how he led by example. He left it all on the ice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Quinn
He’s the messenger both ways. He represents the players and he represents them to management as well. He practised harder than anyone, and he was never a moaner. He never bowed his head. He’d come in and talked about certain issues, but it was his ability to measure a dressing room that was unique. He was the glue that held it all together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Thomas
He just wanted to be the guy when it counted. When we played together on the Leafs, we were also in competition for most career overtime goals. Mats would be like me in overtime, standing up on the bench, wanting to be out there and get the winner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson
He didn't play with great players--I would know, I played with him about 60 games my rookie year-- but he never complained, never rolled his eyes when he saw my name beside his on the board. He treated everybody equally and that's why everybody loved him.

If you want to question his greatness, (look at) his international play, Olympics and world championships. He was the best of the best and that's a true measure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Roberts
When you look at the mark that Wendel and Doug left on Toronto and how they played, to have a European captain like Mats & no doubt he was a little different than those two. But I think about playing with Mats, he'd say to me, 'Get me the puck and meet me at the net.' And I remember on the power play, he'd slam his stick on the ice and look at [Tomas] Kaberle, he wanted the puck so badly. He wanted the puck always. He'd go to the net and some nights he'd have two or three guys on him. That's why, to me, he was such a great leader. He wanted the puck, he wanted to be the man with the game on the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Roberts
I really loved the guy. I know a lot of people questioned things about him, whether he was a good captain or not. I would tell you he was a great captain, and an even better person.

For God's sake, the man's nickname is Captain Clutch.

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02-10-2014, 05:04 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In the NHL, Sundin never seemed to raise his intensity level in the playoffs; he just went out, putting up points, doing his thing. It took someone like Gary Roberts to really spark Toronto. Obviously, it's impossible to know what is going on in the heads of players or in the locker room, but Sundin did give the impression of treating an NHL playoff game like any other game.
i will never defend sundin in toronto. which isn't to say he was bad, or even disappointing, just that he never pleasantly surprised anyone.

but his one half-year in vancouver, he was that gary roberts ass-kicking rah rah veteran to the canucks. taught everybody how to compete in the playoffs, was an inspirational leader, and all that trevor linden-type stuff. i have to admit, i was as shocked as anyone how much credit sundin got from every player on the team, both at the time and two years later during the '11 cup run. i was like, really? mats sundin? but to a man they all swear it.

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02-10-2014, 05:16 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
So I guess all the individual instances of teammates having prolific playoff contributions (even greater than Sundin's in some cases) are just to be conveniently ignored since they don't fit the "terrible teammates" narrative?
A couple of things here,

1) His team mates held his scoring totals down somewhat (my argument) was based more on the regular season than in the playoffs and I specifically indicated 2 other examples to counter that point Trottier/Bossy and Clarke/Leach.

Not sure why the focus on his playoffs, there is general agreement that isn't the strong point of his resume.

2) What prolific playoff contributions did Mats ride on the coattails of exactly? this isn't a Kurri (Anderson is a better example actually) benefiting from Wayne example here...far from it.

3) Now you are terming the phrase "terrible team mates" and attributing to the other side?

Have a close look for the entirety of Mats time in Toronto and you will find that his team mates are maybe average, from a league standpoint, at best not an average playoff team .ie average of the top 16.

It's weird in this project a guy who everyone admits as a so so (Sundin) playoff performer gets the microscope treatment, then Dats is called a so so playoff performer (paraphrasing here) then a guy like Reginald "Hooley" Smith who really had a horrible playoff resume (comparatively speaking in terms of other centers in this project, and guys not included like Bobby smith) gets the excuse parade out from multiple voters here.

Can we please paint everyone with the same brush, either critical or the "benefit of doubt one"?

Or apply both brushes to all players and see where they actually end up?

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02-10-2014, 05:26 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by matnor View Post
This just seems so weird to me. I don't think there is any Swedish player the last 20 years that comes even close to Sundin in terms of being perceived as a "natural leader" in Sweden. I can't say whether the perception is true or not, but is there any reason why you claim Sundin was not a natural leader?

One will find that msot "great leaders" are the winners, maybe circumstance makes their leadership better? I have never bought that myself, stan smyl was every bit as good as a leader as the Moose was they jsut played for different teams in different times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
In the NHL, Sundin never seemed to raise his intensity level in the playoffs; he just went out, putting up points, doing his thing. It took someone like Gary Roberts to really spark Toronto. Obviously, it's impossible to know what is going on in the heads of players or in the locker room, but Sundin did give the impression of treating an NHL playoff game like any other game.
That's the common thinking on this traditionally a "leader" has been what Don cherry and alot of Canadians, including myself, have thought of as a guy willing to put everything on the line to win, he has to hate losing and literally sacrifice anything to win......and it goes on and on.

And if he is born on the prairies to a good old |Canadian farming family even better, or plays for the Habs and is a true Quebecois as well, the stereotypes just go on and on

In "real life" we know that if's often common for leaders to have a quiet confidence and they don't need to follow the sports stereotype, maybe it's time we looked at leadership in a broader way?

TDDM, this post wasn't directed at you but more the general notions of what alot of people think leadership means in the NHL.

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02-10-2014, 05:30 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
One will find that msot "great leaders" are the winners, maybe circumstance makes their leadership better? I have never bought that myself, stan smyl was every bit as good as a leader as the Moose was they jsut played for different teams in different times.


That's the common thinking on this traditionally a "leader" has been what Don cherry and alot of Canadians, including myself, have thought of as a guy willing to put everything on the line to win, he has to hate losing and literally sacrifice anything to win......and it goes on and on.

And if he is born on the prairies to a good old |Canadian farming family even better, or plays for the Habs and is a true Quebecois as well, the stereotypes just go on and on

In "real life" we know that if's often common for leaders to have a quiet confidence and they don't need to follow the sports stereotype, maybe it's time we looked at leadership in a broader way?
TDDM, this post wasn't directed at you but more the general notions of what alot of people think leadership means in the NHL.
We are not discussing real life. We are discussing hockey.

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02-10-2014, 05:32 PM
  #191
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Voted.

I had to admit that I followed my heart here and finally inserted Lafontaine 8th. Between him, Sundin, Keats and Lemaire (disregard the order...), I pretty much had a 75% chance of regretting/going back on my choice next round.

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02-10-2014, 05:33 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

In "real life" we know that if's often common for leaders to have a quiet confidence and they don't need to follow the sports stereotype, maybe it's time we looked at leadership in a broader way?

.
In hockey, some players were branded leaders for their mustache, so...

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02-10-2014, 07:40 PM
  #193
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I won't be able to tally the votes tonight, so the voting period will be extended until 1pm EST tomorrow (Tuesday).

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02-10-2014, 09:42 PM
  #194
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
A couple of things here,

1) His team mates held his scoring totals down somewhat (my argument) was based more on the regular season than in the playoffs and I specifically indicated 2 other examples to counter that point Trottier/Bossy and Clarke/Leach.

Not sure why the focus on his playoffs, there is general agreement that isn't the strong point of his resume.
Why would his teammates drag his scoring down in the regular season by not in the playoffs?

Sundin played a long time with countless combinations of teammates, and produced a similar amount of points practically every year of his career. I don't think it really mattered how good or bad his supporting cast was, he would get his 80 points (this is a positive, by the way).

Quote:
2) What prolific playoff contributions did Mats ride on the coattails of exactly? this isn't a Kurri (Anderson is a better example actually) benefiting from Wayne example here...far from it.
Who said he was riding anybody's coat tails? All I'm arguing is that he didn't have bad teammates dragging him down. That's an extremely far cry from suggesting he road the coat tails of Gary Roberts, Steve Thomas, etc. which would be a ridiculous claim to make.

Quote:
3) Now you are terming the phrase "terrible team mates" and attributing to the other side?

Have a close look for the entirety of Mats time in Toronto and you will find that his team mates are maybe average, from a league standpoint, at best not an average playoff team .ie average of the top 16.
So you now suggest his teammates were in fact, league average? I'm in agreement. Which is why I find the notion that teammates dragged him down to be strange.

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02-11-2014, 01:04 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
In "real life" we know that if's often common for leaders to have a quiet confidence and they don't need to follow the sports stereotype, maybe it's time we looked at leadership in a broader way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
We are not discussing real life. We are discussing hockey.
Captains like Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Nicklas Lidström & Zdeno Chara won several Cups between them with quieter personalities. And there are probably a lot more good examples of that out there from much earlier eras. Chara isn't a "quiet player" and kind of dirty but playing style doesn't have to reflect locker room personality. I don't believe for a second a Captain has to stand up and yell profanities at grown ups to make things work. You can get respect in better ways.

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02-11-2014, 04:32 AM
  #196
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Well if one wanted to use a single series, he was -6 against canada in that 72 series, but that would be ridiculous right?
Just mentioned that one game as a 'positive' example, so what? I wasn't making any generalizations from it.

As far as 1972 goes, playing almost exclusively against 'hot' Phil Esposito and (superior) Canadian defense can have a negative effect on the Plus/Minus. But Petrov also scored 2 SHG in the Series, as well as one PP goal and assisted on a couple more. So, statistically, he and his line (Mikhailov-P-Blinov) were not effective at even strength in the series.


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02-11-2014, 08:25 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Just mentioned that one game as a 'positive' example, so what? I wasn't making any generalizations from it.

As far as 1972 goes, playing almost exclusively against 'hot' Phil Esposito and (superior) Canadian defense can have a negative effect on the Plus/Minus. But Petrov also scored 2 SHG in the Series, as well as one PP goal and assisted on a couple more. So, statistically, he and his line (Mikhailov-P-Blinov) were not effective at even strength in the series.
My apologies that comment wasn't directed at you per say but rather a general sarcastic comment in response to the treatment Sundin was getting for primarily one series against Carolina, which wasn't even factually a very good one as pointed out by quoipourquoi.

Heck give him a guy like Bobby Orr to play with, or he doesn't get traded from Quebec and it's pretty much a lock that Sundin would be top 15-20 material (flooor) in this project right?

His resume looks alot better than Phil's outside of Phil's Orr spike.

Before someone gets all nuts about it, look it up, it's very true.

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02-11-2014, 08:31 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
My apologies that comment wasn't directed at you per say but rather a general sarcastic comment in response to the treatment Sundin was getting for primarily one series against Carolina, which wasn't even factually a very good one as pointed out by quoipourquoi.

Heck give him a guy like Bobby Orr to play with, or he doesn't get traded from Quebec and it's pretty much a lock that Sundin would be top 15-20 material (flooor) in this project right?

His resume looks alot better than Phil's outside of Phil's Orr spike.

Before someone gets all nuts about it, look it up, it's very true.
Nobody in the present round played with Bobby Orr, and if Sundin had stayed with Quebec, the most likely result is he wouldn't have been a candidate for this current project, as he'd end up being primarily a winger...

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02-11-2014, 08:32 AM
  #199
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Heck give him a guy like Bobby Orr to play with, or he doesn't get traded from Quebec and it's pretty much a lock that Sundin would be top 15-20 material (flooor) in this project right?
If he stayed in Quebec, he would likely be full-time RW. Unless you think he'd usurp center role from either of Sakic or Forsberg. Which is, of course, a completely ridiculous notion.

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02-11-2014, 08:42 AM
  #200
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If he stayed in Quebec, he would likely be full-time RW. Unless you think he'd usurp center role from either of Sakic or Forsberg. Which is, of course, a completely ridiculous notion.
chances are then that the argument would switch to "well he rode their coatails then" would be my guess.

guys leaving him out of the top 8 have some explaining to do IMO.

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