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Old
08-07-2005, 04:09 PM
  #26
dedalus
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Originally Posted by Fish
After that you've got the AHLers...Grenier, who has played some NHL, but is probably still just a call up. He can fight, but seems like he needs to learn where to put his thumb when he makes a fist. Gillies, willing...but not sure he's really an NHLer to be honest, McIntyre is even less ready that Gillies.
But let's be honest, Fish, isn't icing AHLers what rebuilding team do?? I have no problem at all with that.

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Besides which...as someone pointed out earlier this is the newer, kinder NHL, having goons might actually be a disadvantage.
Hmmm ... I don't see Hatcher, Rathje, and Brashear being any kinder these days.

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08-07-2005, 06:20 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Fletch
are there too many soft players that will be top six forwards and top four defensemen. You can add a Gillies who could patrol for 2-3 minutes per game. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a 60-minute grind, which used to win hockey games. Winning one-on-one battles and digging in the corners, in both zones, seems to be what used to win hockey games. With the new rules, that may change a bit, but I think in the end, it's not going to be home run passes that wins the hockey games, but it'll be who perserveres to win those games (i.e., work hard) along with defense (even under new rules - perhaps .25 goals per game more are being given up, but things will still get tight). That's my real point - not adding enforcers and 2-3 minute per night guys.
If you're concerned about winning games then sure, toughness is an issue. The question is why are we talking about winning? This team is built to be a filler for 5 months of the season until we can have another fire sale. It's built to keep the team a float while our young kids and prospects develop. Winning doesn't seem to be a priority and even if it were, the question of toughness would be only one of many problem areas in need of attention.

To me, until we're in the position to make a good run at the playoffs there isn't a point in talking toughness. With that said, I think a great deal of effort has been made recently in drafting players that bring more than just skill to the rink - that is a good sign, especially if you're worried about the toughness of our club in the future.

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08-07-2005, 06:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by dedalus
But let's be honest, Fish, isn't icing AHLers what rebuilding team do?? I have no problem at all with that.


Hmmm ... I don't see Hatcher, Rathje, and Brashear being any kinder these days.
No...icing AHLers isn't rebuilding and I've made the point several times over at OTG...not sure what that has to do with what I was saying however...the question was after all whether the Rangers had enough toughness or not

In terms of your Flyers example...they may not be kinder, but they'll be two years older than when we last saw them. In terms of the gentleness, I'm expecting many more penalties so I think some of those types of guys are going to get reigned in more than we've seen in the past...similar to what happened to Lindros and Kloucek as Rangers...clean hits getting penalties.

Finally, I don't know how much more tougher a guy like Rathje is over say Tyutin...I guess we'll find out.

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08-07-2005, 06:31 PM
  #29
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I'm expecting more obstruction penalties but certainly not a penalty for being tough. Granted the days of the 10 second hold in the corner are over (face wash optional), I still believe the game is going to be as physical as ever in the corners. With more speed through the neutral zone it may come with all the offensive perks but it also gives a guy like Kaspar the chance to really drill someone flying across the blueline with their head down.

You might see the Competition Committee moving to remove the instigator rule in a years time which would be great for the game.

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08-07-2005, 08:52 PM
  #30
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There will be a new game IMO with a lot of more space in the center ice region to stage lightning like strikes--breakaways and 2 and 3 on 1's. This is why I think we need to think of mobility from a blueline becoming more important than maybe just having big defensemen. OTOH a team like the Flyers are going to look at our somewhat soft and very suspect defense and your Forsberg's, Primeau's and Brashear's are going to concentrate on controlling the corners and the front of our net. We don't seem to have much of an antidote for that unless the Poti's and Malik's are willing to fight for their space. Up front apart from maybe Jessiman (who I would think won't be ready yet) we don't have any players with the size the skills or with edge right now that have the talent to play on a top line. No Graves's. No Verbeek's. That might be the direction we need to go in next year when it's time to decide on what free agents to sign. It seems like this rebuilding for us is going to be learn as you go.

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08-07-2005, 09:08 PM
  #31
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The more I think about it though Sather might not be done. Lindros-LeClair?

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08-07-2005, 09:37 PM
  #32
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My comments on Jed were a bit harsh but i am sick of this team being pushed around, We need Gillies Grenier and Worell to play alot this season let the top 3 lines play and lose but never ever be bullied.

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08-07-2005, 11:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Fish
No...icing AHLers isn't rebuilding and I've made the point several times over at OTG
Meh, in theory maybe. In the real world there's not a rebuilding team that doesn't have a few guys on it who should be playing in the AHL. You take that as part and parcel of a rebuilding, and that's appropriate for several reasons: You're seeing what, if anything, these guys bring to the NHL; you may be trying to raise their value a bit for trades; you may be using them as models for the kids. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having them on the NHL roster. Kids can learn from them, too, and there's no reason kids should have to play in Hartford to learn from them.

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Originally Posted by Fish
...not sure what that has to do with what I was saying however...the question was after all whether the Rangers had enough toughness or not
You seemed to be saying that guys like Gillies, even though they might fill the toughness role, shouldn't be on the Ranger club because they aren't NHL material: "Gillies, willing...but not sure he's really an NHLer to be honest."

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08-08-2005, 12:14 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by eco's bones
The more I think about it though Sather might not be done. Lindros-LeClair?
Bite your tongue!

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08-08-2005, 12:42 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44
My comments on Jed were a bit harsh but i am sick of this team being pushed around, We need Gillies Grenier and Worell to play alot this season let the top 3 lines play and lose but never ever be bullied.
Why? I think rebuilding includes posting a flawed team.

The regular season isn't that tough anyway. Don't think we should concentrate on building a PO team before its resonable to excpect that we can actually make the PO's...

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08-08-2005, 03:42 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44
My comments on Jed were a bit harsh but i am sick of this team being pushed around, We need Gillies Grenier and Worell to play alot this season let the top 3 lines play and lose but never ever be bullied.
Jed Ortmeyer is not the reason this team gets pushed around. The reason this team gets pushed around is that the GM's in NY collect players like they are hockey cards pay no attention to how that player will actually fit in. 30 goals in ??? well he'll get that here... and we all know its never the case. NY buys high by getting players in their career year and expects them to keep that up. It's just not realistic and until we get over that philosophy we are screwed.

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08-08-2005, 03:45 AM
  #37
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hahahaha we always got purinton hahahah

but we should serisuly sign rob ray

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08-08-2005, 06:46 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by eco's bones
The more I think about it though Sather might not be done. Lindros-LeClair?
I hope Don Maloney smacks him around with a 2x4 if he even thinks about bringing those two in.

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08-08-2005, 07:25 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by dedalus
Meh, in theory maybe. In the real world there's not a rebuilding team that doesn't have a few guys on it who should be playing in the AHL. You take that as part and parcel of a rebuilding, and that's appropriate for several reasons: You're seeing what, if anything, these guys bring to the NHL; you may be trying to raise their value a bit for trades; you may be using them as models for the kids. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having them on the NHL roster. Kids can learn from them, too, and there's no reason kids should have to play in Hartford to learn from them.
I think you're getting too hung up on the term "AHLer"...all I meant to imply was that there are different expectations for different players...icing guys that you have low expectations (in terms of an NHL career) is different than living through the mistakes of a guy you hope will be a long time NHLer. An example would be a guy like Cory Larose or Jason MacDonald...these guys are over 25 and made their debuts with the Rangers, but weren't really expected anything more than gap fillers.

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You seemed to be saying that guys like Gillies, even though they might fill the toughness role, shouldn't be on the Ranger club because they aren't NHL material: "Gillies, willing...but not sure he's really an NHLer to be honest."
"Guys like Gillies" are players who are over 25, play limited minutes in the AHL and have gone through several organizations (at least 4 NHL teams before the Rangers) without playing in the NHL. The odds of someone being anything more than a call-up at that point are very low...I'm simply playing the odds here.

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08-08-2005, 07:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by dedalus
Bite your tongue!
Well visiting over at Rodent's site today he rather comically puts the case forward for such a scenario. It makes sense from what we've seen in the past. It might not be what we want (I for one if this were to turn out would rather have had Kovalev Part #3--not that I really want Alex back) but when has Glen ever worried about that? I have the suspicion that something is looming. We'll see.

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08-08-2005, 08:03 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Entrancemperium
I hope Don Maloney smacks him around with a 2x4 if he even thinks about bringing those two in.
Ditto.

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08-08-2005, 09:38 AM
  #42
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Sml...

the reason the Rangers get pushed around is because they stack their team with players who get pushed around.

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08-08-2005, 10:01 AM
  #43
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
are there too many soft players that will be top six forwards and top four defensemen. You can add a Gillies who could patrol for 2-3 minutes per game. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a 60-minute grind, which used to win hockey games. Winning one-on-one battles and digging in the corners, in both zones, seems to be what used to win hockey games. With the new rules, that may change a bit, but I think in the end, it's not going to be home run passes that wins the hockey games, but it'll be who perserveres to win those games (i.e., work hard) along with defense (even under new rules - perhaps .25 goals per game more are being given up, but things will still get tight). That's my real point - not adding enforcers and 2-3 minute per night guys.
FLETCH - Totally agree with you..As it stands today (and it can very well change), The top 6 will likely be compromised of Jagr, Rucinsky,Straka, Nylander, Balej and a ?????...Not only are these top 2 lines going to be pushed around, they are goingto be woeful on defense.....Yes, the NHL says it will open up..That MIGHT happen but even if it does, it will be gradual and the coaches will be dragged kicking, screaming and scheming...IN other words, it will still be defense first.....

Physically, except for a durable checking center, theis team should be fine on the 3rd and 4th lines..I like Betts, but will he last? Niemenen is a great addtion and all of Ortmeier, Giroux, Ryan, Lundmark and others should be physical enough...

The one guy to look out for is Ryan Hollweg..My bet is that he's a lock for the team and will easily be the top hitter and most willing fighter...But I truly think this team could use one quasi-goon who can play a little and stand up for both the kids and the Czechs...Althoug the main goal of the season should be dcevelopment and it's going to be a long season for the players and physical drubbings will make it even worse...There is a need for somebody to step in against anybody on SOME nights...DOn't think Purinton or Strudwick is the answer and really not sure abiyt McIntyre or Gilles...

BUt, bewing that Sather/Maloney made pitches for both Domi and Andres Roy, I'm glad they are on the look-out..

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08-08-2005, 10:45 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
The one guy to look out for is Ryan Hollweg..My bet is that he's a lock for the team and will easily be the top hitter and most willing fighter...But I truly think this team could use one quasi-goon who can play a little and stand up for both the kids and the Czechs...Althoug the main goal of the season should be dcevelopment and it's going to be a long season for the players and physical drubbings will make it even worse...There is a need for somebody to step in against anybody on SOME nights...DOn't think Purinton or Strudwick is the answer and really not sure abiyt McIntyre or Gilles...

BUt, bewing that Sather/Maloney made pitches for both Domi and Andres Roy, I'm glad they are on the look-out..
Same here, I think Hollweg will be a big contender to make one of the last 6 spots. Nieminen, Ortmeyer, Moore, Ward, Hollweg, Giroux. Also, he needs some time, two years, but Kozak may be that guy. He's got decent offensive skills but is a mean and crazy SOB as well.

Lundmark-Straka-Jagr
Rucinsky-Nylander-Balej
Nieminen-Moore-Giroux
Ortmeyer-Hollweg-Ward

I'd like to get Garth Murray in there, but I don't know if he's better off in HFD for a small part of the season.

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08-08-2005, 10:47 AM
  #45
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I like Hollweg a lot too...

I do wonder if he would produce more offensively with more offensively-related players. He doesn't seem devoid of hockey skills. He does have good to very good speed. He's not tall, but he's built like a wrecking ball and plays that way - a great bodychecker. I liked him a lot last season and wonder if he can do more.

Balej - I think Murray and Hollweg are a bit interchangeable. I thought Murray had decent skills - at least when he was in the NHL. I'm not sure why it hasn't translated at the AHL level except for a bunch of injuries - and perhaps he wasn't playing with offensive-oriented players.

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08-08-2005, 11:24 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Fletch
I do wonder if he would produce more offensively with more offensively-related players. He doesn't seem devoid of hockey skills. He does have good to very good speed. He's not tall, but he's built like a wrecking ball and plays that way - a great bodychecker. I liked him a lot last season and wonder if he can do more.

Balej - I think Murray and Hollweg are a bit interchangeable. I thought Murray had decent skills - at least when he was in the NHL. I'm not sure why it hasn't translated at the AHL level except for a bunch of injuries - and perhaps he wasn't playing with offensive-oriented players.
I've been saying it for awhile, but I troo think that Hollweg will be one of thsoe players that produces more in the NHL then in the minors..He has decent hands and decent speed to go along with his wrecking ball style..Playing with NHL calibre players, I see him scoring quite a few more Garbage and effrort goals. He should be a joy to watch....The only concer is his health, but he got thru the entire year last year without the recurrence of a head injury......

I used to think MUrray and Hollweg were kinda similar but Murray has been a huge disappointment....He gets into scrums and will fight anybody, but he hasn't really shown the huge hitting..Also, he takes way too many stupid penalties (like many Packers) and seems a bit short on the mental part of the game....ANd when I've seen him, he seems to cruise in big circles and not playing straight up and down...iBut there's stiull time...If he geos back to the grinding, board-playing, up and down winger he was before (or was supposed to be), he could hlep NY...

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08-08-2005, 11:34 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Fletch
I do wonder if he would produce more offensively with more offensively-related players. He doesn't seem devoid of hockey skills. He does have good to very good speed. He's not tall, but he's built like a wrecking ball and plays that way - a great bodychecker. I liked him a lot last season and wonder if he can do more.

Balej - I think Murray and Hollweg are a bit interchangeable. I thought Murray had decent skills - at least when he was in the NHL. I'm not sure why it hasn't translated at the AHL level except for a bunch of injuries - and perhaps he wasn't playing with offensive-oriented players.
In the times I've seen Hollweg, I neve got the impression that he had great hands/finishing ability...but he's kind of like a mini-Barnaby in that he makes up for lack of skill through sheer desire.

Murray is a bit of a mystery to me too...he seems to have decent hands and ability to redirect the puck and get to the net, it just hasn't come together for him. Maybe I'm overrating his abilities...

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08-08-2005, 11:47 AM
  #48
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I wouldn't say great either, Fish...

hopefully I didn't say that too. And I agree on the Barnaby reference, and the garbage goal reference by Melnyk. But as I mentioned, I think he has enough skill to not embarass himself out there and could contribute.

Murray had us all fooled...I thought he showed well in the NHL (thought he did hit a fair amount too, Melnyk - but he seemed to be off a step last season in the games I watched). I'd love to see both make decent strides this year. Murray's going to be 23, I believe. He needs to break-out a bit.

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08-09-2005, 04:15 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eco's bones
There will be a new game IMO with a lot of more space in the center ice region to stage lightning like strikes--breakaways and 2 and 3 on 1's. This is why I think we need to think of mobility from a blueline becoming more important than maybe just having big defensemen.
What you are talking about is Sather's fantasy. A full-tilt, run-n'-gun pond hockey. IMO, such a league is sheer fantasy. Coaches like Lemaire, Hitch & Robby are just going to take their two defensemen and staple them to the blue-line. Whereas before the defensemen on these teams primarily played from their own zone to halfway past the blue-line, now they will not take a step past the blueline.
Defense is not going to disappear just becuase the redline is.
Sather is going to learn that the hard way. While he has the Rangers defense joining the rush and pinching, the constant odd-man rushes that the team faces will seem like the last few years all over again.
The teams that played defense-first hockey will be the ones that are successfull in the new-NHL. Without a redline, all it takes is for a defenseman to get caught pinching and BAAM...a 2 on 1 goes the other way. Lemaire will not allow his defensemen to take one step past the blueline.

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08-09-2005, 05:46 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by True Blue
What you are talking about is Sather's fantasy. A full-tilt, run-n'-gun pond hockey. IMO, such a league is sheer fantasy. Coaches like Lemaire, Hitch & Robby are just going to take their two defensemen and staple them to the blue-line. Whereas before the defensemen on these teams primarily played from their own zone to halfway past the blue-line, now they will not take a step past the blueline.
Defense is not going to disappear just becuase the redline is.
Sather is going to learn that the hard way. While he has the Rangers defense joining the rush and pinching, the constant odd-man rushes that the team faces will seem like the last few years all over again.
The teams that played defense-first hockey will be the ones that are successfull in the new-NHL. Without a redline, all it takes is for a defenseman to get caught pinching and BAAM...a 2 on 1 goes the other way. Lemaire will not allow his defensemen to take one step past the blueline.
Well it might be his fantasy but I don't think we're all that well equipped for it especially on defense. And our vets there might turn out to be our worst players. Slower skating defensemen are going to have a problem holding the point with all the extra room for opponents to use behind them. So yes I believe many will be careful about just how far they are willing to go and GM's sooner or later will be looking for D that are very mobile. The good coaches will find a way and I'm not sure that Renney is good but even if he is I don't know if he has a lot to work with.

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