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"Cold War" | 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi | February 7-23 | Medal Count in Post #1

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02-19-2014, 06:32 PM
  #651
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We already do, it's called Hockey. Men's and Women's
And other countries who don't seem to be catching up fast

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02-19-2014, 08:29 PM
  #652
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I have to ask, did you watch the entire Women's bobsled event today? Because Canada's gold medal winner was one of the few sleds that got down that run in the way that you describe...I saw a LOT of teams banging their way down the track, careening through curves so badly that some would touch the top barricade. I'm frankly amazed that Team Brazil managed to get down without killing themselves. Even USA's silver medal winners was making huge gaffes on their final run, IMO they lost the gold as much as Canada won it.

I'd say your observation is much more accurate with the men's teams, it's obvious the women's side has a much wider disparity in talent between the top teams and the rest.
Damn, you're absolutely spot on. I've been watching bobsled for 50yrs but its always been mens teams.

and yeah, the mens teams have had no difficulty with this track whatsoever from what I saw.


I guess most women really can't drive.

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02-19-2014, 09:18 PM
  #653
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Gold in women's bobsleigh!
Just want to say that one of the Bobsleigh members looks like Nate Mackinnon

With long hair

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02-19-2014, 09:35 PM
  #654
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I think 15-16 medals per Winter games is a decent baseline for Canada to aim for. If they get more than that, great. 20+ is just swell.

Russia might win 24+ but this Olympics will probably always have a blemish on it for them because their hockey team didn't even medal on home ice ... so there's always that, lol.

I'm not really a "I'm a Canadian sports fan, you Canadian athletes owe me something, you better not screw up" type, it's more I want the medals not for national pride or some arbitrary medal number so much as I want to see our athletes get rewarded for all the effort they put in to their training.

And yeah as mentioned above "medal count" can be wildly misleading with the disproportionate amount of medals in certain events. I'm not going to tell a Canadian athlete in a sport that only awards 1 medal that his/her funding is getting cut so that we can focus on a sport that awards more medals just so we can have some arbitrary medal count.
That would be really low based on the number of events that have been added in recent years. 15-16 medals excluding X-games type events would be reasonable, but those new sports tend to pack on an extra 10 or so medals that weren't available in the recent past.

Unless Canada really falls by the wayside in a few sports, or a lot of other countries make sudden, large strides in events we traditionally excel in, I can't see Canada ever coming home with fewer than 20 medals again. 25 is probably the benchmark as it stands right now.

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02-19-2014, 09:35 PM
  #655
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Medals are just a way to celebrate excellence and not meant to be the measure by which all countries measure their international penis size. The stories behind the athletes, the hard work needed just to get there, and the celebration of athletics are the point of this and the focus on medal counts are a huge effort in missing the entire point.

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02-19-2014, 10:16 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
Medals are just a way to celebrate excellence and not meant to be the measure by which all countries measure their international penis size. The stories behind the athletes, the hard work needed just to get there, and the celebration of athletics are the point of this and the focus on medal counts are a huge effort in missing the entire point.
You can believe that I guess but the nations have taken a completely different view and always have. original Oly ideals be damned.

Hell during the Cold war the Russian and East German and American approach to this was well known and with a lot at stake. People, politicians saying no less that the respective results are demonstrative of the more successful society. Every Olympics for awhile was like a race for the first moon landing. I don't know if the insanity restarted in 72 or in 68 or before but it was sure there. Everybody knows what 1936 was about.

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02-20-2014, 12:08 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
Medals are just a way to celebrate excellence and not meant to be the measure by which all countries measure their international penis size. The stories behind the athletes, the hard work needed just to get there, and the celebration of athletics are the point of this and the focus on medal counts are a huge effort in missing the entire point.
It's a noble thought that everyone is in there just to participate in athletic endeavors, "sport for the sake of sport" if you will. But it's just not true. It may have been true in the early part of the 20th century, but it ceased to be true a long time ago.

People compete in high level athletics to win. To be the best. To be better than their competitors. To win the medals to display as proof they were indeed the best.

You don't reach this level by simply by enjoying the sport and participating in it with a mindset of leisure and "a celebration of athletics". Nobody spends tens of thousands of hours in the exercise room, sacrifices time away from friends and family for years on end, or wakes up every day at 4 am to make their way down to the speed skating oval, bobsleigh course, or gymnasium if they aren't driven by the desire to be the best in the world in their sport and compete and win at national championships, world championships, and Olympics.

It's fine if you view the Olympics as a pure athletic spectacle and are more interested in the journey's these athletes took to get where they are now, rather than whether or not they have a medal around their neck at the end of it. But it's also fine to focus on the results, and correlate the enjoyment of watching these sports to how successful our Canadian athletes perform in them. These athletes want to win gold medals as badly as anybody. The fans watching them share their passion in many cases.

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02-20-2014, 12:51 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
Medals are just a way to celebrate excellence and not meant to be the measure by which all countries measure their international penis size. The stories behind the athletes, the hard work needed just to get there, and the celebration of athletics are the point of this and the focus on medal counts are a huge effort in missing the entire point.
Why keep score at all? Just give everyone a medal for showing up. Like a little kids baseball game with no scores.

Of course sarcasm. Kind of like the bogus remarks some athletes make "got to have fun"

So I spend my share of tax dollars to pay for fun. If this is the truth thenolympics should be cancelled. Of course even if it is true Olympics is about money so Olympics will go on forever.

I would think most athletes train to win not to compete. I don't give a carp about an attheletes family life or much of anything except the score. All that is for the women viewers and the athletes family and friends.

Just win baby.

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02-20-2014, 02:32 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Cloned View Post
Yeah, pretty much.

The amount of medals in Nordic/Alpine/Cross-Country is ridiculous.

The worst part is these medals will probably always be dominated by certain countries. North America basically doesn't stand a chance unless you have a truly elite athlete like Ligerty or Vonn come along.
From your point of view. From my point of view the amount of medals in freestyle skiing, snowboarding and 'bob sleigh/luge/skeleton' are ridiculous but I accept it since I realize that they are trying to be as broad as possible in the inclusion of sport events.

That some event will be dominated by certain countries is natural, when you are good at something, and it becomes your national sport, you tend to invest in it.

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02-20-2014, 03:32 AM
  #660
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From your point of view. From my point of view the amount of medals in freestyle skiing, snowboarding and 'bob sleigh/luge/skeleton' are ridiculous but I accept it since I realize that they are trying to be as broad as possible in the inclusion of sport events.

That some event will be dominated by certain countries is natural, when you are good at something, and it becomes your national sport, you tend to invest in it.
The variety in the disciplines that make up snowboard and freestyle skiing absolutely blows biathlon's/cross-country's respective variety out of the water. For example, moguls and skicross are totally different sports. While the different cross-country/biathlon events are relatively similar variations of each other.

Fact is, the sport of cross-country skiing is over represented at the Winter Olympics with over a quarter of total medals at least partially comprised of the sport.

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02-20-2014, 04:04 AM
  #661
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No luck for Del Bosco again. He messed up on a jump, lost a ton of speed, and didn't make the quarter finals. Only one of the three Canadians is moving on - really disappointing.

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02-20-2014, 04:51 AM
  #662
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Tough luck for Leman - he ended up in the finals against three French skiers. He had a good race but just got boxed out by the French team. Another fourth place finish.

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02-20-2014, 05:09 AM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Starbuds View Post
The variety in the disciplines that make up snowboard and freestyle skiing absolutely blows biathlon's/cross-country's respective variety out of the water. For example, moguls and skicross are totally different sports. While the different cross-country/biathlon events are relatively similar variations of each other.

Fact is, the sport of cross-country skiing is over represented at the Winter Olympics with over a quarter of total medals at least partially comprised of the sport.
I don't agree with the question of variety (moguls and skicross are more similar than 20 km biathlon and cross country sprint, but that is my opinion) but even leaving that aside I don't really understand your point of view in this debate. Do we cut out cross country events and replace with something else or do you think that the Winter Olympics has too many events?

Skiing and skating is how you move around in the winter and is comparable to running or swimming for summer sports. There you also have a large number of events due to distances (run, walk) and hurdles. If you include all event partially comprised of running you probably end up with a few more.

I actually think the Winter Olympics is fairly well balanced.
12 cross country
11 biathlon
10 alpine
10 freestyle
10 snowboard
12 speed skating
8 short track

+ the rest which have 5 or less.


EDIT: And for the record I actually think there should be more sports in the winter Olympics. As things stand now the summer Olympics is too big and the winter Olympics too small. They could move handball, volleyball, basketball and other indoor sports which are actually played in winter time to the winter Olympics.

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02-20-2014, 07:07 AM
  #664
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Why keep score at all? Just give everyone a medal for showing up. Like a little kids baseball game with no scores.

Of course sarcasm. Kind of like the bogus remarks some athletes make "got to have fun"

So I spend my share of tax dollars to pay for fun. If this is the truth thenolympics should be cancelled. Of course even if it is true Olympics is about money so Olympics will go on forever.

I would think most athletes train to win not to compete. I don't give a carp about an attheletes family life or much of anything except the score. All that is for the women viewers and the athletes family and friends.

Just win baby.
Then why do all the other countries, who have no chance to win, bother showing up? Why is there a Jamaican bobsledding team? Why does Canada compete in any of the events where they are guaranteed to be 2nd place or worst? There is a much larger narrative in the Olympics than just who is going to be the winner.

I'm not denying that for the individual athlete, the medals are important as a celebration of being at the pinnacle of their sport. However, the medals are not the only thing that matter, and in fact, for the large majority of the athletes are not the important part at all since 90% of them don't stand a chance at getting one. Yet they still attend the games and compete as hard as they can.

What I am saying is that for countries to use medal counts as a way to measure how awesome their country is, simply demonstrates how much the point is being missed.

Of course that's exactly what happens - I'm not denying that. The focus becomes how many medals of each colour every single country has, and how it's either a sign of failure or success every four years etc. I'm not saying it's ever going to change. It just misses the point entirely.

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02-20-2014, 07:10 AM
  #665
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It's a noble thought that everyone is in there just to participate in athletic endeavors, "sport for the sake of sport" if you will. But it's just not true. It may have been true in the early part of the 20th century, but it ceased to be true a long time ago.

People compete in high level athletics to win. To be the best. To be better than their competitors. To win the medals to display as proof they were indeed the best.

You don't reach this level by simply by enjoying the sport and participating in it with a mindset of leisure and "a celebration of athletics". Nobody spends tens of thousands of hours in the exercise room, sacrifices time away from friends and family for years on end, or wakes up every day at 4 am to make their way down to the speed skating oval, bobsleigh course, or gymnasium if they aren't driven by the desire to be the best in the world in their sport and compete and win at national championships, world championships, and Olympics.

It's fine if you view the Olympics as a pure athletic spectacle and are more interested in the journey's these athletes took to get where they are now, rather than whether or not they have a medal around their neck at the end of it. But it's also fine to focus on the results, and correlate the enjoyment of watching these sports to how successful our Canadian athletes perform in them. These athletes want to win gold medals as badly as anybody. The fans watching them share their passion in many cases.
This just isn't true, otherwise 90% of the athletes who will never win a medal, wouldn't bother showing up. Many, if not most, are there to perhaps try and beat their own personal records, national records, or to take part in the grand spectacle that is the Olympics.

Yes, competition is massively important, but the nationalistic dick-wagging that goes on over combined medal totals misses the point by so much that it's hilarious.

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02-20-2014, 07:36 AM
  #666
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This just isn't true, otherwise 90% of the athletes who will never win a medal, wouldn't bother showing up. Many, if not most, are there to perhaps try and beat their own personal records, national records, or to take part in the grand spectacle that is the Olympics.

Yes, competition is massively important, but the nationalistic dick-wagging that goes on over combined medal totals misses the point by so much that it's hilarious.
I would definitely say most. Some countries, like Sweden and I suppose Canada, has criteria that need to be fulfilled for the athletes. For example in Sweden the athlete needs to have at least an outside chance at finishing in the top 6, it doesn't matter if you are number 1 in Sweden, if you do not fulfill that criteria they will not send you which I really think is a damn shame.

IMO a great example of the Olympic spirit (and I know there are many) is the Peruvian cross country skier who participated in 15 km classic time trial.

He is 43 years old and became the first winter Olympian from Peru 4 years ago in Vancover. Two weeks before the race in Sochi he broke two ribs and the night before he caught a cold.

He ended up dead last, 28 minutes after the winner Dario Cologna but three things are worth mentioning when it comes to his performance: 1) he crossed the line with the Peruvian flag in his hand, something which normally the winners of a race do, 2) the crowd gave him an amazing reception in the stadium and cheered him on over the last couple of hundred meters and 3) the winner, Cologna, remained for almost 30 minutes to personally congratulate him on his achievement (that would never happen in the world cup or world championships since normally cross country skiers try to get inside as fast as possible after each race as to not risk getting ill).

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02-20-2014, 07:47 AM
  #667
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From your point of view. From my point of view the amount of medals in freestyle skiing, snowboarding and 'bob sleigh/luge/skeleton' are ridiculous but I accept it since I realize that they are trying to be as broad as possible in the inclusion of sport events.

That some event will be dominated by certain countries is natural, when you are good at something, and it becomes your national sport, you tend to invest in it.
I'll agree with this. I'll add that events like moguls, ski cross, half pipe, slope, short track etc may be exciting events but they are largely contrived events and especially half pipe.

I kind of prefer that an age old method of actual transportation, mobilization, hunting, is revered at the games and put on a different pedestal. Cross Country skiing, regardless of what people think about it, is at least a real activity that people have engaged in historically. It involves skills people use every day in the natural world. Its also one of the most healthy activities anybody could engage in and a great model for participation not only for any athlete but for any person.

Shouldn't the Olympics sometimes be about fostering health, vitality, through healthy activity? Theres very little that is truly "healthy" about the half pipe, slope, etc. An interesting stat discussed during the womens slope skiing competition is that every one of the competitive womens skiers in that event had at some time suffered serious injury and with all having suffered significant knee injuries. All of them. These are young athletes, even with advances in science, surgery, arthroscopy injuries like this, particularly knee injuries tend to impact the individual and especially when onset conditions occur so early in life. These joints are yours for life. Unless one wants knee replacements..An argument was made that the degree and height of the jumps exceeded what womens physiology safely allows. Womens knees joints for instance not having the same resilience and strength as male competitors.

An interesting aside is the Globe and Mail had an excellent article(I'll try to link it) about how these events are constantly pushing the envelope and demanding ever more challenge out of the competitors. Bigger jumps bigger drops, bigger pipes. The slope ski course for instance was extremely unforgiving. With some serious injuries on that hill. With the distance to last hill being typically gruesome on a poor condition course where it was very difficult keeping speed in the too soft conditions.

When Shawn White, the top skier in half pipe pulls out, a guy that has put it on the line countless times he got mocked, particularly by Canadians (this noted in the Globe and Mail article) which actively questioned what it is that causes Canadians to want to take on this degree of risk and demand it of our athletes. The article suggested throughout that Olympic athletes in many disciplines are increasingly expected to put their health on the line and that theres been a lack of the athletes involvement historically in ensuring the relative safety of their respective sports.

Essentially a lot of these events are Indy circuit before lots of safety inteventions were put into place. A wish that more safety is the focus in these events.

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02-20-2014, 07:49 AM
  #668
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Tough luck for Leman - he ended up in the finals against three French skiers. He had a good race but just got boxed out by the French team. Another fourth place finish.
I don't agree that he had a good race. Being boxed out is the one thing he should have been looking for in an event with three countrymen against him. Certainly they had an advantage. he fell into the trap. It was crucial he got the lead or at least a clear line in the event. He did neither. He did crash when he was in 4th in the first place and finishing 4th among the 4 competitors.

Getting to the finals is nice. His run in the finals not particularly good.

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02-20-2014, 07:52 AM
  #669
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Lagu,

The Peruvian cross country skier is a great story for sure - another part of the whole picture. I'm not anti-winning or competition, but those kinds of narratives are fantastic as well.

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02-20-2014, 09:03 AM
  #670
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I don't agree that he had a good race. Being boxed out is the one thing he should have been looking for in an event with three countrymen against him. Certainly they had an advantage. he fell into the trap. It was crucial he got the lead or at least a clear line in the event. He did neither. He did crash when he was in 4th in the first place and finishing 4th among the 4 competitors.

Getting to the finals is nice. His run in the finals not particularly good.
You've mentioned that you don't like watching the Olympics, but that you've seen it in passing a few times, and yet you seem to have some good strategy on pretty much every sport. Were you an Olympics junkie in the past?

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02-20-2014, 09:27 AM
  #671
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You've mentioned that you don't like watching the Olympics, but that you've seen it in passing a few times, and yet you seem to have some good strategy on pretty much every sport. Were you an Olympics junkie in the past?
Yep. I try to resist watching due to the amount of time it kind of grabs from you. Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes not. I managed to avoid watching too much in the first week.

Should mention as well is I've known a lot of Oly athletes through the decades, trained with them, worked with them, friends, etc. I never got to the standard myself as that wasn't my goal. Health and rehabilitation after injuries was. Unfortunately I found out fairly early I didn't have the knee joints for high level competition.
But my perspective is as viewer and some first person experience. I've done a lot of Cross country skiing, soccer, tennis, now showshoeing, hiking road cycling. long distance cycling. Used to train at the Argyll velodrome. I'm very familiar for instance with the concept of being boxed in. haha. That's a big part of sprint events. I was more of a front runner with powerful thighs. Didn't have to draft. Just power through. Of course its much different sport in how you generate speed but the basic concept of being boxed in applies to racing in all forms. Some simple patterns you would avoid. Some movements that you are well aware of that you would anticipate from others and employ yourself. You have to be aware of the exact positions people will try to pass. That said on track I think its easier to spot especially with somebody riding high on the track lol.

I had to back off track cycling and climbing cycling due to this. Thighs reached a point where I was having problems. Thign Compartment problems. Normand Lacombe, former Oiler, had the same problem. I was compensating for knee injuries by increasing thigh muscle for decades. All natural I should add, no enhanced anything, just hard work, great nutrition. But...

IT becomes harder as age progresses to maintain health after early onset injuries. Its a big problem an thus my concern for some athletes. One body, one life.

sorry to veer from the Oly topic a bit but theres some helpful messages here hopefully as every Olympics inspire new athletes. pick your disciplines carefully would be my advice.


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02-20-2014, 09:54 AM
  #672
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I'm glad that Jennifer Jones wins a medal regardless, but I'll be disappointed if she can't close the deal and get gold.

Unbeaten, close it out. ABC!

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02-20-2014, 10:01 AM
  #673
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I'm glad that Jennifer Jones wins a medal regardless, but I'll be disappointed if she can't close the deal and get gold.

Unbeaten, close it out. ABC!
It looks like she will win gold. Sweden had a chance to tie it in the End 9, but they missed Jones' rock and hit her own out of the circle which gave Jones a 3 point lead. All Canada has to do is play it safe and keep sweden from points and it's game over.

Edit - CANADA WINS GOLD IN WOMENS CURLING! CONGRATS JENNIFER JONES AND TEAM!!!


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02-20-2014, 10:08 AM
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It looks like she will win gold. Sweden had a chance to tie it in the End 9, but they missed Jones' rock and hit her own out of the circle which gave Jones a 3 point lead. All Canada has to do is play it safe and keep sweden from points and it's game over.
And She did, Well Done, Canada up to 6 Gold Medals. A dominant performance from Jones, probably one the best for Canada internationally Ever.

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02-20-2014, 10:11 AM
  #675
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So happy for Jones and her crew.

So clutch.

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