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Contract negotiations not going to Markov's taste

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Old
02-06-2014, 02:34 PM
  #276
Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
We've debated Diaz at length. I remember several of your posts where you claimed Diaz was worth a 2nd round pick. It's OK to admit that he's not. Clearly, if MB could have gotten more than Weise for him, I'm sure he would have acted on your 2nd round pick suggestion. However, where there are no takers, no amount of after-the-fact cherry-picked advanced statistics and analytics is going to change market perception.

The Habs were selling a fringe asset and received a fringe asset. Signing Markov is a totally separate proposition than that of disposing of Diaz -- quite obviously, there are organizational depth assessments that we're not privy to.

If the Habs were motivated by not wanting to lose Diaz for nothing and felt that they had the organizational depth to make it happen, then it's sound asset management. Outside observers typically believe that more can be had when the dynamics of what makes a deal possible or desirable, is completely outside their grasp.

If you really want to wield heavy artillery at a Habs move, let's do it when the Habs are involved in a transaction of greater consequence. This definitely ain't it.
Regardless of the Diaz trade value, if MB was seriously considering moving Markov, it stands to reason that he would have kept Diaz around just in case.

Diaz played very well the 1st half mostly as a #4 guy. He wouldn't fully replace Markov but it's a better option than rushing Beaulieu or playing Murray or Bouillon top 4.

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02-06-2014, 02:39 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Regardless of the Diaz trade value, if MB was seriously considering moving Markov, it stands to reason that he would have kept Diaz around just in case.

Diaz played very well the 1st half mostly as a #4 guy. He wouldn't fully replace Markov but it's a better option than rushing Beaulieu or playing Murray or Bouillon top 4.

Keep Diaz in case of what? In case he'd sign? It wasn't going to happen, quite obviously.

Playing Beaulieu or someone from Hamilton who was deemed close enough to play NHL minutes, was exactly what needed to happen, since signing Diaz was clearly not a viable option, for a host of reasons, one of them having to do with what Diaz would have cost.

You have to let go this illusion of Diaz as a no. 4 guy -- he was a stopgap that could not be counted upon to continue in that role. There is a reason he was in the pressbox. No one within the Habs' org. bought into the 2nd pairing myth. Neither did the market. Time to let go, bud.

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02-06-2014, 02:39 PM
  #278
Beendair Donedat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
A few more points a year, mostly because he played on a NYR with not a lot of blueline skill and got PP time, doesn't make Girardi a different player. Plus Gorges is +24 better playing on a Habs team that has been at times much weaker than NYR.

That's like saying Prust and Moen are completely different players because one averages 5 more points a year.
There's no point talking to you... He has 74 more points than Gorges in 5 less games played.... Gorges career total is 95.... Plus he's a number one or two defenseman while Gorges is not.... Girardi is better than Gorges in every category.

Anyone on here will tell you who the much superior player is between the two... It's sad you can't see the obvious.

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02-06-2014, 02:42 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Girardi, even if he's not using it that much, has a canon of a shot.
He's one of the best hitters among the NHL's d-men.
He's also quite quicker, and quite better to move the puck than Gorges is.

Girardi is a top-pairing d-man. Gorges is a #4-#5 guy.

Just this season, Girardi has already almost twice as many hits as Gorges has. He blocks almost as many shots. And he's definitely better offensively.
Gorges has a much better +-...over 500+ games that says a lot.

Again, the differences are minimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Couldn't agree more...this team's problem is not on defense

It's the very poor group of forwards that they collectively have after Pacioretty/Gallagher, IMO.

No offense to Plekanec, good player, but very overrated around these parts IMO (braces for ****storm)
How is Plekanec overrated? He puts up 50-60 points with no elite winger while playing head to head with the best forwards in the game and being a stud on PK. ...and he makes 1 mil less than a guy like J.Staal who can't duplicate his production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, ''ideally'' doesn't mean much. Ideally, my team is close to an all-star one where Markov is on a 2nd pairing and Plekanec on the 3rd line. But that really doesn't mean anything. Plekanec is not a top 90 center in the NHL, and Markov is a top 120 Dman.

So if you don't think Markov is a top 2 Dman, that means you don't think he's in the top 60 Dmen of the NHL, which, to me, is ridiculous.

If we still had McDo, PK-McDo would likely be our top pair (actually, with this stupid coach, he'd probably do Markov-McDo) but that doesn't mean Markov isn't a top 2 D, just like despite being on the 2nd line in Pittsburgh, Malkin is still a top franchise center.
You seriously think there are 90 better centers in the NHL than Plekanec?

...and 120 better d-men than Markov?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, I don't know how Markov will adapt. But surely, he is on a decline.
I don't have a problem signing him, but that's assuming Bergevin is making a push.
If he will just be patient and wait for 3-4 years before making that push, then yes, move Markov.
Markov's skating and defensive play is better this year than last year. Probably due to rust and coming back to short/compact season but his decline is not very rapid. He's had a few rough patches but you can say that about every NHL d-man. In our game against Nashville Weber looked like a cone against us, does that mean he's a #5-6 d-man and a bum?

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02-06-2014, 02:46 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
There's no point talking to you... He has 74 more points than Gorges in 5 less games played.... Gorges career total is 95.... Plus he's a number one or two defenseman while Gorges is not.... Girardi is better than Gorges in every category.

Anyone on here will tell you who the much superior player is between the two... It's sad you can't see the obvious.
Girardi is not a #1 d-man on any NHL playoff team.

If you play Gorges on the PP all year I'm sure he can get an extra 10 points a year like Girardi.

Girardi has no Subban or Markov on his team so h plays on the PP by necessity.

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02-06-2014, 02:48 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Keep Diaz in case of what? In case he'd sign? It wasn't going to happen, quite obviously.

Playing Beaulieu or someone from Hamilton who was deemed close enough to play NHL minutes, was exactly what needed to happen, since signing Diaz was clearly not a viable option, for a host of reasons, one of them having to do with what Diaz would have cost.

You have to let go this illusion of Diaz as a no. 4 guy -- he was a stopgap that could not be counted upon to continue in that role. There is a reason he was in the pressbox. No one within the Habs' org. bought into the 2nd pairing myth. Neither did the market. Time to let go, bud.
In case you trade Markov.

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02-06-2014, 02:49 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post

Markov's skating and defensive play is better this year than last year. Probably due to rust and coming back to short/compact season but his decline is not very rapid. He's had a few rough patches but you can say that about every NHL d-man. In our game against Nashville Weber looked like a cone against us, does that mean he's a #5-6 d-man and a bum?
Factor in Markov's age and contract with his injury history. Wouldn't you rather take a chance on a first rounder (assuming that's what Bergevin gets for him)?

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02-06-2014, 02:51 PM
  #283
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You know I've been thinking about the Berezin thing.

I can't find anything on Berezin being a lawyer or accountant or any credentials that makes him a credible agent.

So, either Markov doesn't want to do the bargaining himself but wants a strawman he can trust doing it for cheap and exactly according to his plan (which a friend like Berezin would) OR Berezin will swindle him somehow.

Don't think Markov wants to hard ball. He would have kept Meehan if so. Or would have went with Larionov.

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Old
02-06-2014, 02:52 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Factor in Markov's age and contract with his injury history. Wouldn't you rather take a chance on a first rounder (assuming that's what Bergevin gets for him)?
Not unless it's a team that may miss the playoffs and the pick could be top 15.

I would want at least a 1st and a good prospect.

His injury history is a non factor, ~knock on wood~ he hasn't had an injury since October 2010.

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02-06-2014, 02:52 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
You seriously think there are 90 better centers in the NHL than Plekanec?

...and 120 better d-men than Markov?

Well, Plekanec would have to be the worst 3rd liner in the NHL to have 89 better Cman than him and Markov the worst 4th Dman to have 119 better Dman than him.

For me Plekanec is a pretty good #2 and Markov a pretty good #3.

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02-06-2014, 02:55 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Factor in Markov's age and contract with his injury history. Wouldn't you rather take a chance on a first rounder (assuming that's what Bergevin gets for him)?
Were you not angry at me two yearsago when I suggested the same?

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02-06-2014, 02:57 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
I can't find anything on Berezin being a lawyer or accountant or any credentials that makes him a credible agent.
The TVA Sports article on it mentions that Berezin applied for and received a "temporary agent" license from the NHL...so unless they just hand those things out to whoever, I guess he must have had some kind of credibility outside of his #10,000 puck.

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02-06-2014, 03:01 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, ''ideally'' doesn't mean much. Ideally, my team is close to an all-star one where Markov is on a 2nd pairing and Plekanec on the 3rd line. But that really doesn't mean anything. Plekanec is not a top 90 center in the NHL, and Markov is a top 120 Dman.

So if you don't think Markov is a top 2 Dman, that means you don't think he's in the top 60 Dmen of the NHL, which, to me, is ridiculous.

If we still had McDo, PK-McDo would likely be our top pair (actually, with this stupid coach, he'd probably do Markov-McDo) but that doesn't mean Markov isn't a top 2 D, just like despite being on the 2nd line in Pittsburgh, Malkin is still a top franchise center.
I'm sorry man...I remember Markov when he was at his very best

If you think that TODAY, he's still a top 2 dman (and really, all these labels are semantics, they can mean different things to different people) then I respectfully disagree.

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02-06-2014, 03:04 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Regardless of the Diaz trade value, if MB was seriously considering moving Markov, it stands to reason that he would have kept Diaz around just in case.

Diaz played very well the 1st half mostly as a #4 guy. He wouldn't fully replace Markov but it's a better option than rushing Beaulieu or playing Murray or Bouillon top 4.
Ain't nothing stopping Bergevin from getting a defenseman back in a trade you know. Obviously not going to be of the calibre of Markov, but then neither is Diaz. But if you can get a 15 minute a night defenseman, perhaps with some upside, bump Subban's minutes up to 25, break in Beaulieu and/or Tinordi, you really wouldn't need Diaz, now would you?

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02-06-2014, 03:10 PM
  #290
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Ain't nothing stopping Bergevin from getting a defenseman back in a trade you know. Obviously not going to be of the calibre of Markov, but then neither is Diaz. But if you can get a 15 minute a night defenseman, perhaps with some upside, bump Subban's minutes up to 25, break in Beaulieu and/or Tinordi, you really wouldn't need Diaz, now would you?
A 15 minute a night d-man would be behind Murray and Beaulieu.

If you get a d-man he'd have to play top 4, which entails 19-20 minutes at least on most teams.

I don't like the "play Subban more" thing, he already looks a bit tired and the Olympics start in 6 days. If anything he'll need a reduced workload after the Olympics.

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02-06-2014, 03:14 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
The TVA Sports article on it mentions that Berezin applied for and received a "temporary agent" license from the NHL...so unless they just hand those things out to whoever, I guess he must have had some kind of credibility outside of his #10,000 puck.
It almost sounds like they have a deal in place and Markov just wants somebody to read the contract wording to make sure all is good.

If Markov was all about maxing dollars or UFA he'd have stayed with Meehan.

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02-06-2014, 03:14 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I don't like the "play Subban more" thing, he already looks a bit tired and the Olympics start in 6 days. If anything he'll need a reduced workload after the Olympics.
It's ok he'll be rested after the Olympics lol, he won't play much.

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02-06-2014, 03:15 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
How is Plekanec overrated? He puts up 50-60 points with no elite winger while playing head to head with the best forwards in the game and being a stud on PK. ...and he makes 1 mil less than a guy like J.Staal who can't duplicate his production.


Max Pacioretty will manage to put up 30+ goals this year with no real center...

What's your point about Plekanec not playing with no elite winger?

As for him putting up 50-60pts...well his point totals have been in a constant downfall since 2009, he's gone from 70, 57, 52, 33 (in lockout season) and has 32pts this year (in 10 more games than he had last year).

He's still a good player, don't get me wrong. But it takes him a lot of icetime for him to be productive offensively.

He is overrated by Habs fans...but overrated, doesn't mean useless

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02-06-2014, 03:16 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by goforit View Post
Well, Plekanec would have to be the worst 3rd liner in the NHL to have 89 better Cman than him and Markov the worst 4th Dman to have 119 better Dman than him.

For me Plekanec is a pretty good #2 and Markov a pretty good #3.
I don't think there's 60 better Dman out there than Markov.

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02-06-2014, 03:19 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think there's 60 better Dman out there than Markov.
what does 60 better dmen have to do with anything? Not sure I understand this reasoning? Not being facetious, I just don't get it?

Are you implying that there are 30 NHL teams, which means 60 top 2 dmen?

You don't actually believe that EVERY team has a legit #1 and #2 dman do you?

There are very few true top pairing dmen in the NHL...and certainly, not every NHL team has one.

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02-06-2014, 03:21 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think there's 60 better Dman out there than Markov.
What?? Being a #2 doesn't mean there are 60 better defensemen..god!

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02-06-2014, 03:23 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm sorry man...I remember Markov when he was at his very best

If you think that TODAY, he's still a top 2 dman (and really, all these labels are semantics, they can mean different things to different people) then I respectfully disagree.
I remember Markov at his best too. I thought he was a top 10 D, arguable top 5. So you don't need to tell me this. He's not what he was. Still, he can handle being on a top pairing. You prefer to have a more stay at home aggressive guy next to your #1 Subban, that's fine. But that doesn't mean Markov isn't a top 2.

But I think it's become quite clear that you do not have a good grasp on our team. Heck, you think our team is playing to the best of its potential. So ya, I'm not surprised that you don't Markov is a top 2.

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02-06-2014, 03:26 PM
  #298
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Markov would still be a decent deal 3 years @ 5$ million even if he's not getting better.

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02-06-2014, 03:26 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I remember Markov at his best too. I thought he was a top 10 D, arguable top 5. So you don't need to tell me this. He's not what he was. Still, he can handle being on a top pairing. You prefer to have a more stay at home aggressive guy next to your #1 Subban, that's fine. But that doesn't mean Markov isn't a top 2.

But I think it's become quite clear that you do not have a good grasp on our team. Heck, you think our team is playing to the best of its potential. So ya, I'm not surprised that you don't Markov is a top 2.
I just have an opinion...I don't claim to be right. I'm certainly open to the possibility of being wrong

Like I said, i'm not really going to bother debating semantics of what a top 2 D is...

To each his own I guess

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02-06-2014, 03:29 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Were you not angry at me two yearsago when I suggested the same?
2 years ago Markov was injured and had zero trade value.

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