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[VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part III - the #FireTherrien edition

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Old
02-05-2014, 11:42 PM
  #26
SirClintonPortis
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We got faster. Moar speed to stroke our "fast team" stereotype, amirite? Or must the player also be small?

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02-05-2014, 11:52 PM
  #27
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All the discussions about keeping Murray over Diaz are misguided. We traded Diaz because we couldn't sign him, we had To make room for Beaulieu, and we needed someone like Weisse. It seems that Weisse was being misused in Van, and I guess Bergevin's thought we could tesla age him. So far he looks like so eying we needed. Hopefully it works out for both Beaulieu and Weiss.

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02-06-2014, 12:00 AM
  #28
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I took a straw poll..decided to post this interesting strawman stat -

Since the start of 2014, when Murray became a regular as Diaz was finally being scratched...Murray is -1. Since Jan. 4, Subban is -9. Since Dec. 29 Emelin is -7 and Markov is -9. The team's goal differential in 2014 so far is -9..yet the guy who gets blamed more than anyone is Murray.

The Murray defenders..or MDs if you will...do not profess that he was good when he first returned from injury..in fact up until the New Year there weren't many complaining when he was scratched.

Now that he is playing better however...why is it that the MB's..or Murray Bashers...will not even concede that his play has improved?

Yes it DOES matter that he missed training camp. When you're 34, slow to begin with and 240 pounds, it takes awhile to get in game shape...quite awhile.

Yes it DOES matter that when he was in the lineup he was often paired with Bouillon, and also found himself playing, while still not in game shape, with Parros and AHLers.... for reasons only Therrien could explain.

Since he's started playing regularly and gotten into better condition...he really hasn't been the liability some are proclaiming. Not sure why some of you cannot acknowledge that. Merely stating that he's crap isn't an argument.

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02-06-2014, 12:03 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I took a straw poll..decided to post this interesting strawman stat -

Since the start of 2014, when Murray became a regular as Diaz was finally being scratched...Murray is -1. Since Jan. 4, Subban is -9. Since Dec. 29 Emelin is -7 and Markov is -9. The team's goal differential in 2014 so far is -9..yet the guy who gets blamed more than anyone is Murray.

The Murray defenders..or MDs if you will...do not profess that he was good when he first returned from injury..in fact up until the New Year there weren't many complaining when he was scratched.

Now that he is playing better however...why is it that the MB's..or Murray Bashers...will not even concede that his play has improved?

Yes it DOES matter that he missed training camp. When you're 34, slow to begin with and 240 pounds, it takes awhile to get in game shape...quite awhile.

Yes it DOES matter that when he was in the lineup he was often paired with Bouillon, and also found himself playing, while still not in game shape, with Parros and AHLers.... for reasons only Therrien could explain.

Since he's started playing regularly and gotten into better condition...he really hasn't been the liability some are proclaiming. Not sure why some of you cannot acknowledge that. Merely stating that he's crap isn't an argument.
Murray's play has improved. It went from sucks to blows.

Reality is, even in shape and playing at his best, he is still a fringe #6.

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02-06-2014, 12:21 AM
  #30
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Wait are we really on the third thread for a Diaz-Weise trade?

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02-06-2014, 12:45 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I took a straw poll..decided to post this interesting strawman stat -

Since the start of 2014, when Murray became a regular as Diaz was finally being scratched...Murray is -1. Since Jan. 4, Subban is -9. Since Dec. 29 Emelin is -7 and Markov is -9. The team's goal differential in 2014 so far is -9..yet the guy who gets blamed more than anyone is Murray.

The Murray defenders..or MDs if you will...do not profess that he was good when he first returned from injury..in fact up until the New Year there weren't many complaining when he was scratched.

Now that he is playing better however...why is it that the MB's..or Murray Bashers...will not even concede that his play has improved?

Yes it DOES matter that he missed training camp. When you're 34, slow to begin with and 240 pounds, it takes awhile to get in game shape...quite awhile.

Yes it DOES matter that when he was in the lineup he was often paired with Bouillon, and also found himself playing, while still not in game shape, with Parros and AHLers.... for reasons only Therrien could explain.

Since he's started playing regularly and gotten into better condition...he really hasn't been the liability some are proclaiming. Not sure why some of you cannot acknowledge that. Merely stating that he's crap isn't an argument.
Very much agreed. I enjoy your posts, as I tend to find myself agreeing with them constantly. In fact, at the very end of Part 2 of this thread I said almost the exact same thing.

Murray has improved his play drastically and has become more of what we wanted him to be in the first place: a tough, physical defenseman who is effective on the penalty kill. I hope he keeps it up down the stretch, because I like what I've been seeing lately.

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02-06-2014, 12:47 AM
  #32
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Wait are we really on the third thread for a Diaz-Weise trade?
It;s more about Murray bashing except they can't bash like Murray can.

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02-06-2014, 06:16 AM
  #33
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Eklund saying the Pens might be interested in Briere now. That could be a 4 part topic if it ever happens, cause he'll be playing a hell of a lot better there
Confirms the Pens are not interested .

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02-06-2014, 06:39 AM
  #34
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Confirms the Pens are not interested .
If its anything to do with pens, flyers or devils, Eklund is sometimes in on it. Otherwise , agreed.

Excited for the potential return, but not holding my breath.

So....Weise seems pumped to play van city, could be a decent tilt.

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02-06-2014, 10:30 AM
  #35
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NJ would be a good fit for Briere.

But MB must be careful with his next moves. It is clear that two players will have to be cut to meet the 23 men roster when everyone is healthy.

For me, he has to decide between Briere and Gionta, and get the best draft pick he can for one of them. Bourque is an enigma as usual, but he is now playing his best hockey of the season.

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02-06-2014, 10:41 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I took a straw poll..decided to post this interesting strawman stat -

Since the start of 2014, when Murray became a regular as Diaz was finally being scratched...Murray is -1. Since Jan. 4, Subban is -9. Since Dec. 29 Emelin is -7 and Markov is -9. The team's goal differential in 2014 so far is -9..yet the guy who gets blamed more than anyone is Murray
...
Since he's started playing regularly and gotten into better condition...he really hasn't been the liability some are proclaiming. Not sure why some of you cannot acknowledge that. Merely stating that he's crap isn't an argument.
I agree with this assessment. When he joined the team, I was advocating that the Canadiens brass get this guy to slim down before camp. The key to his effectiveness may be playing at substantially less than 240, and I would not be surprised if that is the case right now. It's just physics. Players are more explosive at 220 or 225 than 240. If much of what he lost is fat, playing lighter probably does not detract from his strength or intimidation factor.

My take on it is that as long is we have promising PMDs in the pipeline, what he brings is more complementary to the rest of the team than a guy like Diaz, as good as Diaz may have been. Especially if Markov is re-signed.

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Old
02-06-2014, 10:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MDN View Post
Eklund saying the Pens might be interested in Briere now. That could be a 4 part topic if it ever happens, cause he'll be playing a hell of a lot better there
Maybe, if we retain 75% of his salary

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02-06-2014, 10:48 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by HatTricK09 View Post
Wait are we really on the third thread for a Diaz-Weise trade?
Actually, it became a Diaz vs Murray thread, or a Murray bashing thread.

Some people cannot understand yet that Diaz was not traded to make Murray play, but to get a much needed big forward and also allowing Beaulieu to get his feet wet at NHL level. Even if the Habs would had kept Diaz,Murray would still be in the line up for every games.


Last edited by habitue*: 02-06-2014 at 10:54 AM.
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02-06-2014, 10:49 AM
  #39
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Murray's play has improved. It went from sucks to blows.

Reality is, even in shape and playing at his best, he is still a fringe #6.
and paid like one.

So, just a general question here, is Murray the reason why we're not winning more games now? Just wondering because he seems to be mentioned in a lot of threads and discussions on this board.

So we change Murray with who, at the same salary, and win how many more games exactly?

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02-06-2014, 10:56 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HatTricK09 View Post
Wait are we really on the third thread for a Diaz-Weise trade?
hem ehem, i like to refer to them as Swiss Bobby Orr and 21st century Brent Bilodeau, please post accordingly.

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02-06-2014, 10:57 AM
  #41
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hem ehem, i like to refer to them as Swiss Bobby Orr and 21st century Brent Bilodeau, please post accordingly.
Talent gap is about right.

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02-06-2014, 10:58 AM
  #42
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Brière had been declining for years and is providing exactly what ought to have been expected of him. There was a vague chance that he had more to offer, but it was a bad gamble. Expecting a 36-year-old to recapture his former skills fails pretty much 99.9% of the time.



Murray and Parros are liabilities on the ice. They don't "fill roles", they hurt the team. They're below replacement level; the team could replace them with AHL callups and do better.

It's of course probable that the org feels that it doesn't matter that they both are bad hockey players because Murray is large and Parros fights. More of that organizational philosophy problem I mentioned
.
You love whining and complaing about players who matter little in the grand scheme of things.

Placing all the problems of the Montreal Canadiens on a guy who plays 14 mins a game and another who plays 5 mins a game or who`s often a healthy scratch.

Like I said in the previous thread, this is like complaining about a crack in the windshiled of your car, when there`s a crack in your engine block.

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02-06-2014, 11:00 AM
  #43
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#FireTherrien

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Old
02-06-2014, 11:04 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by habaholic View Post
and paid like one.

So, just a general question here, is Murray the reason why we're not winning more games now? Just wondering because he seems to be mentioned in a lot of threads and discussions on this board.

So we change Murray with who, at the same salary, and win how many more games exactly?
According to many here...he is. Which is laughable at best

I guess the idea here is to get a number 6 dman who plays like a number 1 dman.

That`s really realistic

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02-06-2014, 11:21 AM
  #45
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You love whining and complaing about players who matter little in the grand scheme of things.
While Murray and Parros aren't the only problems facing the Habs, they're important for two reasons:

1- depth players do matter. If the bottom of opposing lineups is crushing yours, that's not any better than if the top of their lineup was crushing yours. You just end up being beat by third-liners. And when guys like Murray start in the offensive zone and end up being hemmed in in the defensive zone, it makes life harder for everyone else, too, even once he comes off the ice.

2- they're symptoms of the root problem: the organization's philosophy of team-building and hockey systems is broken. Murray is the rattling noise in the engine that tells you you have a crack in the engine block.

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02-06-2014, 11:27 AM
  #46
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While Murray and Parros aren't the only problems facing the Habs, they're important for two reasons:

1- depth players do matter. If the bottom of opposing lineups is crushing yours, that's not any better than if the top of their lineup was crushing yours. You just end up being beat by third-liners. And when guys like Murray start in the offensive zone and end up being hemmed in in the defensive zone, it makes life harder for everyone else, too, even once he comes off the ice.

2- they're symptoms of the root problem: the organization's philosophy of team-building and hockey systems is broken. Murray is the rattling noise in the engine that tells you you have a crack in the engine block.
Except you're complaining about a player who is probably one of our best defensemen right now, and a 17th forward who barely plays. Your argument just sounds so silly.

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02-06-2014, 11:29 AM
  #47
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Holy **** I wouldn't have believed people would be ragging on Murray given his play as of late but sure enough....

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02-06-2014, 11:31 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
While Murray and Parros aren't the only problems facing the Habs, they're important for two reasons:

1- depth players do matter. If the bottom of opposing lineups is crushing yours, that's not any better than if the top of their lineup was crushing yours. You just end up being beat by third-liners. And when guys like Murray start in the offensive zone and end up being hemmed in in the defensive zone, it makes life harder for everyone else, too, even once he comes off the ice.

2- they're symptoms of the root problem: the organization's philosophy of team-building and hockey systems is broken. Murray is the rattling noise in the engine that tells you you have a crack in the engine block.
Depth is important, indeed. That is why they have acquired Weise. Parros will play a handful of games until the end of this season and will be gone by next July. Same with Bouillon and very possibly Murray. You should rejoice..

But right now, with the making of this team and D-Corp , you need a Murray as a #6. He is playing way better since he's back in shape and is a regular.

On this board, it is amazing to see how some posters are unfair towards some specific players,and they never, ever change their opinion even if the guy is doing better. Examples: Murray and DD. Even Bourque and Briere deserve some respect, now.

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02-06-2014, 11:32 AM
  #49
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Hamhuis and H. Sedin out for tonight. Big pieces.

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02-06-2014, 11:35 AM
  #50
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Hamhuis and H. Sedin out for tonight. Big pieces.
Diaz is just as good or better than Hamhuis. GAA/60, end of story. FLAWLESS LOGIC.

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