HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Rumor Thread 3.0: Gagner fit for a King?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-12-2014, 11:25 AM
  #376
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Clifford had 14 points in 48 games in the lockout which is a prorated 24 points over 82 games. Now it is entirely possible that he would've slowed in that pace, but playing in a more offensive environment (in more ways than one ) he could match that type of a pace in a good year. That said fair enough if you don't see him capable of such numbers, I'll agree to disagree with you.
You have to be a bit careful in prorating his output. He had 5 points in his first 4 games last year when LA's fourth line could do no wrong. After that his production was more typical of a 4th line guy.

He did put up points in Barrie in the year after he was drafted, but so far there is not much evidence that he has an offensive upside.

Fourier is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 12:11 PM
  #377
rockinghockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
No chance you get Sutter for Gagner. The plus would have to be significant. He is basically their Couturier.
There would have to be a plus but not significant, we are not even talking about a player that is a legit 2C. Couturier has not even proven to be a 2C yet. I would like to have both of them but come on lets be realistic and say the plus would not be significant.

What would be significant in your opinion?

rockinghockey is online now  
Old
02-12-2014, 12:58 PM
  #378
SoftDumps
Registered User
 
SoftDumps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 429
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
No chance you get Sutter for Gagner. The plus would have to be significant. He is basically their Couturier.
Oh I was figuring we would have to add. Without knowing Sutter's contract status off the top of my head I held back on trying to nail down value.

Main difference between Pitt and Philly is that Sutter has 2 absolutely world class centers playing ahead of him, and Couturier only has 1. Couturier is miles more important to his team than Sutter and has a better offensive upside, imo.

Anyways, I don't see the fit with Pittsburgh as our prospect pools are deep in the same area (defence), so would be tough to add anything they really want.

SoftDumps is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:06 PM
  #379
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,156
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
There would have to be a plus but not significant, we are not even talking about a player that is a legit 2C. Couturier has not even proven to be a 2C yet. I would like to have both of them but come on lets be realistic and say the plus would not be significant.

What would be significant in your opinion?
Saying Couturier hasn't proven to be a 2C yet is like saying Martin Hanzal hadn't proven to be a 2C four years ago. Couturier is definitely a 2C.

raab is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:08 PM
  #380
SoftDumps
Registered User
 
SoftDumps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 429
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Saying Couturier hasn't proven to be a 2C yet is like saying Martin Hanzal hadn't proven to be a 2C four years ago. Couturier is definitely a 2C.
Agree. He is worth a boatload more than Sutter.

SoftDumps is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:09 PM
  #381
rockinghockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Saying Couturier hasn't proven to be a 2C yet is like saying Martin Hanzal hadn't proven to be a 2C four years ago. Couturier is definitely a 2C.
Don't get me wrong I would take Couturier as our 2C but he is not a proven 2C, he hasn't played a 2C role since he has been in the league. Hanzal plays on the top 2 lines and plays on the PP all the time.

rockinghockey is online now  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:13 PM
  #382
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,156
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Don't get me wrong I would take Couturier as our 2C but he is not a proven 2C, he hasn't played a 2C role since he has been in the league. Hanzal plays on the top 2 lines and plays on the PP all the time.
He's playing a 2C role right now, he's on pace for 40 points while being a beast defensively. I think the question is whether or not Couturier becomes a 1C similar to Bergeron which is what I projected him being at the draft. I still say if he gets some better wingers he could be a 60 point center who can shut down the best in the game.

Edit: I really wonder what Couturier would look like playing between Hall and Eberle and what RNH would have looked like playing with Matt Read and Steve Downie/Rinaldo?

raab is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:20 PM
  #383
rockinghockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
He's playing a 2C role right now, he's on pace for 40 points while being a beast defensively. I think the question is whether or not Couturier becomes a 1C similar to Bergeron which is what I projected him being at the draft. I still say if he gets some better wingers he could be a 60 point center who can shut down the best in the game.

Edit: I really wonder what Couturier would look like playing between Hall and Eberle and what RNH would have looked like playing with Matt Read and Steve Downie/Rinaldo?
Any way I am not going to argue about it, I would love to have Couturier on this team I am guessing Eberle going to PHI but what else would PHI have to add.

rockinghockey is online now  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:25 PM
  #384
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
There would have to be a plus but not significant, we are not even talking about a player that is a legit 2C. Couturier has not even proven to be a 2C yet. I would like to have both of them but come on lets be realistic and say the plus would not be significant.

What would be significant in your opinion?
My guess is that the plus would be more valuable than Gagner himself. The point is that both players have the potential to be elite 3rd line centers even if they are never going to be suitable 2nd liners. Gagner is well past the point where he will be elite at any role.

Fourier is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 01:43 PM
  #385
CorpseFX
Registered User
 
CorpseFX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 7,679
vCash: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Edit: I really wonder what Couturier would look like playing between Hall and Eberle and what RNH would have looked like playing with Matt Read and Steve Downie/Rinaldo?
thought experiment answer: any team that plays RNH between those players should fire the coach and gm.

CorpseFX is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 02:06 PM
  #386
17Kurri
Registered User
 
17Kurri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
So what's the answer? Wait in hopes that Gagner's value rises?

Even at his very best he is still not a great fit on many teams in the league. He has skills for sure but he needs to be surrounded by players who can a) take advantage of those skills and b) neutralize his deficiencies. There are teams that fit this mold. LA, Chicago, San Jose, Boston, St. Louis, Pittsburgh and Anaheim come to mind. San Jose and Boston would have no need for him. I am not sure why Pittsburgh, St. Louis or Anaheim would either. But he is not the type of player that any of those teams will give up quality skilled roster players for. So you are looking role players, prospects or picks. After that you need to look at teams like Nashville. He would be a fit there in so much as they need his scoring ability but would it be realised without the high quality line-mates? And who do you get from them? Not Roman Josi for sure. Maybe you might have gotten Klein, but that ship has sailed.

The longer you wait with Gagner the less you can use the "but he's still young card". This is his 7th year in the league. By this point his skillset is established. Teams should know what they are getting and what it's value is to them.

My feeling about Gagner has not changed for some time. I like the kid and hope that if he is traded that he will be a success where ever he goes. But he does not fit the current make-up of the team and it would be foolish to try and change the team to fit him. To me he seems like a diminishing asset. I will say however, that the Oilers are in a position to retain a good deal of his salary, both financially and in terms of the cap. If they refuse to do that then they are ignoring one of the few advantages that a franchise like Edmonton has in a competitive market place.
If I knew all the answers, don't you think I'd be the king of the Oilogosphere?

17Kurri is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 02:14 PM
  #387
Cawz
Registered User
 
Cawz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Oiler fan in Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,801
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Like the Kings with Clifford, that seems to fit the above description. But I agree with the return a bottom six guy and maybe prospect or pick if we are lucky. But if the Oil do not eat part of Gagner's ugly contract then forget about the pick/prospect, a big physical bottom six guy is about all one could hope for IMO. I still think Gags probably has a little less value after the season.
It may also depend on how he finishes off the season. If he finishes off the season strong, his value may rise. We may see I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
So what's the answer? Wait in hopes that Gagner's value rises?
If the alternative is to sell low just for the sake of trading him, then yes, especially if we dont have a better option for his position. He played pretty good last year and was 2nd on the team in scoring. I dont see it being out of the realm of possibility that he could improve to that level again considering he's still in his early 20s and coming off an injury. If we could trade him for a more established and bigger center, I'd be all over it. But trading him for futures in the hopes that we can find that player via free-agency or another trade is always a challenge and may be a pipe dream. We never seem to be able to fix the holes via trades and free agency. Its a recurring promise and fail every summer.

Cawz is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 02:16 PM
  #388
17Kurri
Registered User
 
17Kurri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftDumps View Post
Agree. He is worth a boatload more than Sutter.
I love Couturier, but let's not go overboard.

Right now, there's nothing statistical to suggest that Couturier is a better player than Sutter, never mind by boatloads. Even on the ice, if you put Couturier and Sutter face to face, I suspect they'd come out pretty even.

That said, I tend to agree that he holds more value for the Flyers than Sutter does for the Pens. It has nothing to do with who's the better player, it has to do with how their teams employ them on the ice.

17Kurri is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 02:55 PM
  #389
dustrock
Too Legit To Quit
 
dustrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,818
vCash: 500
Couturier is already getting prime PK and d-zone starts. His QoC is tough.

Not sure if 2C/3C matters for him as much as "defensive beast".

dustrock is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 04:12 PM
  #390
spOiler
Registered User
 
spOiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,069
vCash: 500
Hmm so where is the Couts rumor that got all this couts talk going....

spOiler is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 04:52 PM
  #391
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 17Kurri View Post
If I knew all the answers, don't you think I'd be the king of the Oilogosphere?
Touche!

Fourier is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 04:53 PM
  #392
Mr Sakich
Registered User
 
Mr Sakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Motel 35
Posts: 8,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Saying Couturier hasn't proven to be a 2C yet is like saying Martin Hanzal hadn't proven to be a 2C four years ago. Couturier is definitely a 2C.
the numbers simply do not agree with this. His production is at the level of a 3rd line centre (boosted by a 4 point night vs Detroit who was missing Datsyk, Zetts and others). Ignore that night and he is a 4th line scorer.

The Flyers talk about his defence and I think it is quite good. He is similar in scoring and defence to Gordon. Nothing wrong with that. Here is the kicker though - when the game is on the line, he sits on the bench. When the Flyers are protecting a one goal lead late in the game like they were vs Calgary right before the break, Giroux + Hartnell are out there.

Mr Sakich is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 05:01 PM
  #393
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz View Post

If the alternative is to sell low just for the sake of trading him, then yes, especially if we dont have a better option for his position. He played pretty good last year and was 2nd on the team in scoring. I dont see it being out of the realm of possibility that he could improve to that level again considering he's still in his early 20s and coming off an injury. If we could trade him for a more established and bigger center, I'd be all over it. But trading him for futures in the hopes that we can find that player via free-agency or another trade is always a challenge and may be a pipe dream. We never seem to be able to fix the holes via trades and free agency. Its a recurring promise and fail every summer.
I am not suggesting that you just trade him for the sake of dealing him. But I also do not see any evidence to suggest that the return will get better if you wait. In fact with the NMC and with teams having additional options in the summer my guess is that odds are it will decrease. I also hope that the return is more than Clifford. I am record as saying something like Clifford and Zykov would be very good.

I know this is not popular but I think there is already a reasonable temporary solution in the system in Arco. He's not as purely talented as Gagner but he is better defensively, on the dot, and despite his size is a lot more physical. He is not a long term solution but right now I think that you are better off with Arco and the assets you get for Gagner than you would be with the status quo. This is especially true if they juts let Arco walk.

Fourier is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 05:38 PM
  #394
Brewster
Registered User
 
Brewster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Positive View Post
Dude, just seeing that makes me happy, but sadly logic brings me back to the sad reality.

Samuelson will be a stud in the NHL. If I'm Maloney there's no way he's for sale.
Acquiring Samuelsson would bring us a step closer to realizing MacT and Stu's master plan of re-assembling the 2012/13 Oil Kings in the NHL.

In all seriousness Sammy would be the perfect add to our prospect pool. A future trio of Moroz-Chase-Samuelsson as an agitator line would be unbelievable if they all continue tracking well.

Brewster is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 05:39 PM
  #395
bucks_oil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by spOiler View Post
Hmm so where is the Couts rumor that got all this couts talk going....
No kidding. So in the crazy weeks leading up to the TDL, Mods..why don't we up the security level on this thread. It is ONLY for the actual rumor links. First to bring the link is allowed to include their own comments. Mods are the only ones who actually post here (with credits and comments as due).

Then the inevitable opinions and discussion can be in the "discussion" thread.

or

The OP gets updated only with rumors.

I know this sounds like a lot of work, but I actually think it would save the mods time from having to delete random posts... like this one.

bucks_oil is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 06:23 PM
  #396
Cawz
Registered User
 
Cawz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Oiler fan in Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,801
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am not suggesting that you just trade him for the sake of dealing him. But I also do not see any evidence to suggest that the return will get better if you wait. In fact with the NMC and with teams having additional options in the summer my guess is that odds are it will decrease.
I see no evidence that the max value is at the trade deadline. All you get are role players that contending teams deem expendable for their playoff run. In late June, you see teams trading real players before July hits. Like in the last 3 years, we saw Tanguay, Jones, Bernier, Scrivens, Stuart, Ribeiro, Michalek, Staal, Clutterbuck, Streit, Richards, Simmonds, Schenn, Carter, Voracek, Burns, Setoguchi, Regehr and Smyth all get traded for other players before July 1st, which is when his NMC clause kicks in.

I think the trade deadline is when you trade a player for futures, which is what we shouldnt be trading Gagner for. We need to trade him for size and/or veteran experience.

Cawz is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 11:16 PM
  #397
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,156
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Any way I am not going to argue about it, I would love to have Couturier on this team I am guessing Eberle going to PHI but what else would PHI have to add.
If I'm a betting man I'd say Coburn, but I see Philly wanting another D back in the deal. Maybe one N.Schultz?

Also can really tell who watches teams outside the Oilers, lets remember that Couturier shut down Malkin as an 18 year old. He's going to be one of the best 2 way guys in the league in his prime.

And as for the rumour here it goes straight from the 4th period if they're considered credible.

OILERS, FLYERS RE-ENGAGE TRADE TALKS?
TheFourthPeriod.com
Edmonton and Philadelphia could be involved in significant trade discussions, as top members of the Flyers' management brass scouted the Oilers' latest game in New Jersey.
The Oilers and Flyers have been engaged in trade talks for some time; Philadelphia almost traded defenseman Braydon Coburn to the Oilers during the 2013 NHL Draft.

With the Olympic roster freeze in affect, teams are not able to trade players until Feb. 24, but they can continue to negotiate and could agree to terms during the break.
Flyers GM Paul Holmgren, Assistant GM Ron Hextall, Head of Pro Scouting Dave Brown and Pro Scout Al Hill attended Friday night's Oilers game against the Devils, prompting speculation that serious trade talks between the two clubs are ongoing.

While TFP cannot confirm, at this point, if the two teams are actually involved in trade negotiations, the Flyers have shown interest in Oilers star Jordan Eberle and right wing Ales Hemsky in the past, and the Oilers have been linked to Coburn and teammates Sean Couturier and Luke Schenn.

It's unknown who, if anyone, the Flyers and Oilers are discussing between them, but having Philly's top decision makers attend Edmonton's game has raised eyebrows.

The Oilers have been actively shopping the likes of Hemsky, left wing Ryan Smyth and center Sam Gagner, but have also received plenty of interest in the likes of Eberle and right wing Nail Yakupov.

Hemsky and Smyth are set to become unrestricted free agents July 1.

Holmgren has been on the lookout for a top-line winger to play with captain Claude Giroux and could be targeting Eberle.

The NHL trade deadline is March 5 at 3pm ET.

raab is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 11:21 PM
  #398
nofool6110
Best @ tanking ainec
 
nofool6110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewster View Post
Acquiring Samuelsson would bring us a step closer to realizing MacT and Stu's master plan of re-assembling the 2012/13 Oil Kings in the NHL.

In all seriousness Sammy would be the perfect add to our prospect pool. A future trio of Moroz-Chase-Samuelsson as an agitator line would be unbelievable if they all continue tracking well.
This might be me, but that ain't no agitator line - I have a feeling Samuelsson is going to be shocking a lot of people with the crooked numbers he'll put up in the NHL, a real top-6 power forward. If Maloney comes asking for Hemsky and offers up Henrik, I take that deal and arrange for flowers to be delivered in Phoenix for the next 10 years.

nofool6110 is offline  
Old
02-12-2014, 11:55 PM
  #399
spOiler
Registered User
 
spOiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
If I'm a betting man I'd say Coburn, but I see Philly wanting another D back in the deal. Maybe one N.Schultz?

Also can really tell who watches teams outside the Oilers, lets remember that Couturier shut down Malkin as an 18 year old. He's going to be one of the best 2 way guys in the league in his prime.

And as for the rumour here it goes straight from the 4th period if they're considered credible.

OILERS, FLYERS RE-ENGAGE TRADE TALKS?
TheFourthPeriod.com
Edmonton and Philadelphia could be involved in significant trade discussions, as top members of the Flyers' management brass scouted the Oilers' latest game in New Jersey.
The Oilers and Flyers have been engaged in trade talks for some time; Philadelphia almost traded defenseman Braydon Coburn to the Oilers during the 2013 NHL Draft.

With the Olympic roster freeze in affect, teams are not able to trade players until Feb. 24, but they can continue to negotiate and could agree to terms during the break.
Flyers GM Paul Holmgren, Assistant GM Ron Hextall, Head of Pro Scouting Dave Brown and Pro Scout Al Hill attended Friday night's Oilers game against the Devils, prompting speculation that serious trade talks between the two clubs are ongoing.

While TFP cannot confirm, at this point, if the two teams are actually involved in trade negotiations, the Flyers have shown interest in Oilers star Jordan Eberle and right wing Ales Hemsky in the past, and the Oilers have been linked to Coburn and teammates Sean Couturier and Luke Schenn.

It's unknown who, if anyone, the Flyers and Oilers are discussing between them, but having Philly's top decision makers attend Edmonton's game has raised eyebrows.

The Oilers have been actively shopping the likes of Hemsky, left wing Ryan Smyth and center Sam Gagner, but have also received plenty of interest in the likes of Eberle and right wing Nail Yakupov.

Hemsky and Smyth are set to become unrestricted free agents July 1.

Holmgren has been on the lookout for a top-line winger to play with captain Claude Giroux and could be targeting Eberle.

The NHL trade deadline is March 5 at 3pm ET.
That's really solid actually and very interesting if people were not posting PROPOSALS none stop I might have seen it to begin with.... Like this thread was made for.

spOiler is offline  
Old
02-13-2014, 12:09 AM
  #400
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,156
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by spOiler View Post
That's really solid actually and very interesting if people were not posting PROPOSALS none stop I might have seen it to begin with.... Like this thread was made for.
Yea for sure, but with no hockey for 3 weeks I think everyone is going a little crazy now. I think this thread will probably slow down in a week, then pick up a few days before the Olympics end. Also don't know if it was posted earlier or if guys just started talking about it, but have to think theres a big deal being worked out with Philly for our 1st++. The draft is in Philly so I can see them wanting a top 3 pick even more then a team usually would.

Edit: Thinking about it more maybe we could see two deals made after the trade deadline. One with Philly where we send them our 1st+Hemsky for The Schenns. Then a 2nd where Gagner goes to LA for Clifford+Muzzin? Both deals I think would make sense for each team. Could be being a bit hopeful on the Gagner deal. Lineup after the deals would be:

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Perron-Schenn-Yakupov
Clifford-Gordon-Hendricks
Gazdic-Smyth-Jones
Arcobello

Muzzin-Petry
Ference-Schultz
Marincin-Schenn

I dunno, just spitballing what the potential deals could look like.


Last edited by raab: 02-13-2014 at 12:17 AM.
raab is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.