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Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XIX: The Olympic Freeze

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Old
02-12-2014, 01:40 PM
  #251
Alluckks
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We could potentially take Havlat back in a deal and use him to replace Callahan's 3rd line minutes. He is still averaging 15 TOI per game over in SJ.

What would need to be added to Havlat to make it a viable trade for us though? 1st + b prospect? I'd like something around: Havlat + Nieto + 3rd (2nd if SJ makes it to WCF)

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02-12-2014, 01:41 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
I wish Jagr could end up back up on this team. Him on that 2nd line would create a great dynamic on our offense. We have a balanced attack as is, but sometimes, our 2nd line has the tendency to completely disappear. Jagr would make that line more consistent.

Too bad he went to the Devils.

As for what Bobbop and Dags said. Cally is gonna have to realize he's getting 6-7 from Buffalo or another bottom feeder, or he'll have to take a pay cut for a contender. If we come to an agreement with SJ, i'm sure Cally's agent will be able to gauge the interest from the Sharks to resign him and understand that's just the reality of the situation.

IF he's hell bent on 7 million, he'll go to Buffalo. That's the most logical solution. If he's more inclined to win, he may resign here, or with another team that offers him slightly more than us.

Sending an extended Callahan to Buffalo could get us young pieces that would be crucial to our success. Extended Cally should be able to yield us Grigorenko and that Islanders 1st.
Hell no to the first and yes please to the second. Leave the past where it is and build for that consistent contender in years to come. Young pieces only, unless we're taking on a salary dump to increase the value of the rest of an offer.

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02-12-2014, 01:42 PM
  #253
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One thing for sure is that this year compared to last year shows us the importance of having a viable 4th line. Spending that extra 3 million on your 4th line can go a long way.

Boyle at 1.8 - 2
Goc at 2 - 2.5
Dorsett at 1.63

Worth it?

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02-12-2014, 01:44 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Hell no to the first and yes please to the second. Leave the past where it is and build for that consistent contender in years to come. Young pieces only, unless we're taking on a salary dump to increase the value of the rest of an offer.
Jagr for a playoff push would be great man. I'm not saying he's a long term solution. But he would be quintessential to the balancing that 2nd line for the remainder of the season.

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02-12-2014, 01:49 PM
  #255
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Havlat would be hated here.

Unless we're getting a 1st or a solid prospect in the deal, I would rather just hold on to Cally and ride him out for a playoff run. I don't see a point in trading for guys like Havlat or Stewart. If we're trading Callahan it has to be for young players and/or picks or it's simply just not worth it.

I'd love to get Jagr back here for the rest of the season as well, but I'd rather slam my **** in a car door than see Callahan wearing a Devils jersey.

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02-12-2014, 01:51 PM
  #256
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Taking back Havlat is a favor to the Sharks as it lets them make more deals. They can add Green with the caproom. That's the whole pointof the deal is to get Nieto back but to take Havlat who for one year at $5 million won't kill the cap. He can be a spare to provent injuries, he can play top 9, or bottom 3.

I don't mess with the Boyle-Moore-Carcillo line. They've clicked.

I try and trade Dorsett for a pick or include him in a deal as having him sit out makes no sense, and get him off the cap for next year. They can do something similar to the Niemanen deal where they got a pick and flipped that for Ozo

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02-12-2014, 01:52 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Killem Dafoe View Post
Havlat would be hated here.

Unless we're getting a 1st or a solid prospect in the deal, I would rather just hold on to Cally and ride him out for a playoff run. I don't see a point in trading for guys like Havlat or Stewart. If we're trading Callahan it has to be for young players and/or picks or it's simply just not worth it.

I'd love to get Jagr back here for the rest of the season as well, but I'd rather slam my **** in a car door than see Callahan wearing a Devils jersey.
Oh no, definitely not advocating a swap. I'm talking about an independent trade for Jags.

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02-12-2014, 01:54 PM
  #258
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Thankfully, Glen holds very firm on the value he wants in a trade.

Top prospect + 1st should be market value.

SJ wants him, Hertl and 1st. Nieto, 1st, 3rd liner. Drop off between Nieto and Hertl is actually quite steep. Hertl is a 1st line talent, Nieto is projected as ceiling of 2nd and likely 3rd liner.

Don't just trade the captain of a good playoff contender for the point of trading him. It'll be a very good package or we ride it out with him.

Those are the options I think we have.

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02-12-2014, 01:54 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Oh no, definitely not advocating a swap. I'm talking about an independent trade for Jags.
I would be down for that. He's still one of my favorite players and will probably be a PPG guy until he's 50. Pure talent and a beast on the puck.

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02-12-2014, 01:55 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Killem Dafoe View Post
Havlat would be hated here.

Unless we're getting a 1st or a solid prospect in the deal, I would rather just hold on to Cally and ride him out for a playoff run. I don't see a point in trading for guys like Havlat or Stewart. If we're trading Callahan it has to be for young players and/or picks or it's simply just not worth it.

I'd love to get Jagr back here for the rest of the season as well, but I'd rather slam my **** in a car door than see Callahan wearing a Devils jersey.
I was implying that taking back Havlat would be considered a favor for San Jose. As in where they might offer Nieto for Callahan initially, if we are taking back Havlat as well then they would have to add more to the deal. Would that be worth it to us? Havlat is not nearly the player that Callahan is, but he could fill his minutes for now.

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02-12-2014, 01:56 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Thankfully, Glen holds very firm on the value he wants in a trade.

Top prospect + 1st should be market value.

SJ wants him, Hertl and 1st. Nieto, 1st, 3rd liner. Drop off between Nieto and Hertl is actually quite steep. Hertl is a 1st line talent, Nieto is projected as ceiling of 2nd and likely 3rd liner.

Don't just trade the captain of a good playoff contender for the point of trading him. It'll be a very good package or we ride it out with him.

Those are the options I think we have.
Would you do Nieto + Havlat + 2nd(1st if SJ makes WCF)?

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02-12-2014, 01:59 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Killem Dafoe View Post
I would be down for that. He's still one of my favorite players and will probably be a PPG guy until he's 50. Pure talent and a beast on the puck.
Pure talent and more importantly (especially for someone at his age) he has the most insane work ethic i've ever seen. Guys would feed off of that. If we sign him for next year, a guy like Fast or Kristo would definitely benefit from playing on a line with him.

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02-12-2014, 02:03 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Alluckks View Post
Would you do Nieto + Havlat + 2nd(1st if SJ makes WCF)?
If I'm Glen Sather, no I would not do that. I don't know much about Havlat as a player. I don't know how positive and negative attributes. But from what i've seen, Havlat is on his way out, his contract is high relative to his performance, and taking him back would be "a favor" to the Sharks.

I can see a favor being made with someone like Brian Burke, someone Sather has a long time relationship with - friends with, but the Sharks GM did us no favors last year with Clowe.

Glen is driven by ego and by principle, and the principle in this situation would be to rob the Sharks, just as they did us with Clowe.

Hertl and 1st or Nieto + 1st + 3rd liner. Which, rightfully so, should be declined by the Sharks for a player that may not resign with them.

They could give us 2 1sts... but I haven't seen a team make a trade like that in a while, so...

Point being, Havlat won't see a Rangers jersey unless it doesn't involve getting rid of Callahan and we're getting him purely to add to our team, and not substitute.

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02-12-2014, 02:04 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Thankfully, Glen holds very firm on the value he wants in a trade.

Top prospect + 1st should be market value.

SJ wants him, Hertl and 1st. Nieto, 1st, 3rd liner. Drop off between Nieto and Hertl is actually quite steep. Hertl is a 1st line talent, Nieto is projected as ceiling of 2nd and likely 3rd liner.

Don't just trade the captain of a good playoff contender for the point of trading him. It'll be a very good package or we ride it out with him.

Those are the options I think we have.
Hertl + 1st?
If we could get Hertl for Callahan+1st you jump all over that.

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02-12-2014, 02:08 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Wow sounds like someone has info envy. What is the first part of your post supposed to mean?
No envy at all he is a great poster, the sharks have been linked to rangers islanders devils and buffalo all in the last week, they need goals bad

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02-12-2014, 02:09 PM
  #266
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I think Hertl has a bit of a fluky early season. He'll be a functional top 6 scorer but no superstar, IMO.

I'd trade Callahan for him but not Cally and a first.

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02-12-2014, 02:12 PM
  #267
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I don't want to give the Devils assets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
I think Hertl has a bit of a fluky early season. He'll be a functional top 6 scorer but no superstar, IMO.

I'd trade Callahan for him but not Cally and a first.
The Hertl-hype-train was ridiculous. Fans love an Eastern European scoring winger. What, are like 1/4 of his goals from against us in that one abortion of a game? Next Jagr! That said, I'd be ecstatic to pry him out of San Jose.

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02-12-2014, 02:14 PM
  #268
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Hertl + 1st?
If we could get Hertl for Callahan+1st you jump all over that.
Wut? Effectively he's still a prospect. Suffered a pretty major injury to an incredibly important part of your body.

We'd have to give them a 1st too?

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02-12-2014, 02:28 PM
  #269
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Jagr for a playoff push would be great man. I'm not saying he's a long term solution. But he would be quintessential to the balancing that 2nd line for the remainder of the season.
I don't believe that this team is a legitimate contender and I am vehemently against "anything can happen."

Therefore, I fundamentally disagree with trading anything that might help us in the future for anything that is strictly for this season. This team should not be taking on ANY short term assets; until we have a core in place that includes a true #1C, all deals should be made with an eye towards getting that player - either directly or as an avenue to get him eventually. (If we get someone back who can help now AND in the future, I have no problem with that, depending on value.)

And as to Jagr specifically, did you see him the POs last year? He was so gassed he could barely skate in the third periods. And you want to give the Devils assets to bring him back a year older and in an Olympic year? Madness.

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02-12-2014, 02:37 PM
  #270
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I don't believe that this team is a legitimate contender and I am vehemently against "anything can happen."

Therefore, I fundamentally disagree with trading anything that might help us in the future for anything that is strictly for this season. This team should not be taking on ANY short term assets; until we have a core in place that includes a true #1C, all deals should be made with an eye towards getting that player - either directly or as an avenue to get him eventually. (If we get someone back who can help now AND in the future, I have no problem with that, depending on value.)

And as to Jagr specifically, did you see him the POs last year? He was so gassed he could barely skate in the third periods. And you want to give the Devils assets to bring him back a year older and in an Olympic year? Madness.
Can you explain your first sentence?

I haven't seen one person tell me, using any type of logic or statistic, why we are not "legitimate" contenders.

1) A playoff contender is 1/16 teams. 14 teams are eliminated. All 16 teams have a chance, no matter how small - meaning that the argument of "anything can happen" is improbable - not impossible.
2) We have a balanced offense. Best 4th line we've had in years. All 3 of our lines apply pressure and have offensive potential. In fact, this is the most balanced offense we've had in years too. We have like 10 players in double digits in terms of goals already.
3) We have a dominant and balanced defense. A great shutdown top defensive pairing. A 2nd defensive pairing that is debatably playing as well as our first pairing. A 3rd pairing that is definitely now amongst the best in the league - for a 3rd pairing. They're only getting stronger as the year goes along. That's the trend you want to see as you get closer to the playoffs.
4) We have a top 3 goalie (debatably #1) who is also dominating and improving as the season goes on. Many years, he'd single-handedly take us into the 2nd round by himself.

You telling me we're not legitimate based on a gut feeling or what you think isn't convincing me.

We've been pretty consistent these last 2.5 months. We're trending upwards. PK and PP are both in the top 10.

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02-12-2014, 02:59 PM
  #271
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I'd just be curious what we could get for Girardi + Callahan to an all in team, especially if we retain salary or take a bad contract back. Not that I ever think that would happen in actuality.

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02-12-2014, 03:06 PM
  #272
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How about Callahan and a mid-round pick for Antoine Vermette? I think he would fit us very well, and imo a very underrated player.

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02-12-2014, 03:17 PM
  #273
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Can you explain your first sentence?

I haven't seen one person tell me, using any type of logic or statistic, why we are not "legitimate" contenders.

1) A playoff contender is 1/16 teams. 14 teams are eliminated. All 16 teams have a chance, no matter how small - meaning that the argument of "anything can happen" is improbable - not impossible.
2) We have a balanced offense. Best 4th line we've had in years. All 3 of our lines apply pressure and have offensive potential. In fact, this is the most balanced offense we've had in years too. We have like 10 players in double digits in terms of goals already.
3) We have a dominant and balanced defense. A great shutdown top defensive pairing. A 2nd defensive pairing that is debatably playing as well as our first pairing. A 3rd pairing that is definitely now amongst the best in the league - for a 3rd pairing. They're only getting stronger as the year goes along. That's the trend you want to see as you get closer to the playoffs.
4) We have a top 3 goalie (debatably #1) who is also dominating and improving as the season goes on. Many years, he'd single-handedly take us into the 2nd round by himself.

You telling me we're not legitimate based on a gut feeling or what you think isn't convincing me.

We've been pretty consistent these last 2.5 months. We're trending upwards. PK and PP are both in the top 10.
I'm sorry, but we've been through this round and round, and then suddenly we hit the Olympic break and mysteriously you're back to square one, going through the same arguments and asking us for the same justifications over and over. It's getting a little frustrating.

The goal is to build a consistent, perpetual contender. Contender means odds-on favorite. One of the 3-4 teams that OTHER teams talk about not wanting to have to go through to get the Cup, in the way we all talk about Boston and Pittsburgh and whichever of the Western Conf. powerhouses makes it to the finals.

Anyone else is relying on the fallacious old saw that "anything can happen" in the playoffs. This saying only applies in football where you have to win at most four games - and, in fact, the NHL playoffs are specifically designed to defeat this phenomenon, because they require you to play consistently superior hockey over an extended stretch of 16-28 games, virtually eliminating the chance to "get lucky" and beat better teams.

I believe we are not a contender based on our roster construction. We are WAY too weak down the middle and lacking offense from the blue line that I think we need. I am pleased that we appear to be a second tier team, but propping up even a second tier team by trading away assets is fool's gold. You should always build towards that true contender status until you get there. THEN you can look at win-now deals. Anything else is actually working against the best interest of the team because it's sacrificing assets that could help you get to true contender status in order to boost your 2% chance to 2.5%.

Of course there is no statistic I can give you, no proof, because I can't predict the future and having Nostradamus come here and tell you for a fact that the Rangers will lose in 6 in the 2nd round to Pittsburg on a goal by Neal appears to be the only "proof" you would accept. This is precisely the mindset of "anything can happen". I look at our roster, see holes, don't think we can stack up and think we should therefore not make any deals that sacrifice futures for a one-time run that I believe to be ill-fated.

Does this make me a bad fan? No. It makes me a realistic one. Once the trading deadline passes and all that's left is playing the games, I'll be rooting for this team to win every single one. But when it comes to talking deals before the deadline (and then again after the season), any trade that doesn't improve the team long-term is a mistake and, in fact, counterproductive to what should be the long-term goal: building a contender.


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02-12-2014, 03:18 PM
  #274
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Pure talent and more importantly (especially for someone at his age) he has the most insane work ethic i've ever seen. Guys would feed off of that. If we sign him for next year, a guy like Fast or Kristo would definitely benefit from playing on a line with him.
Jagr has the ability to help young players thrive, that's for sure. Look at Dubinsky. Also, like you said, he has absolutely insane work ethic and the ability to will the puck into the net. I saw some of that today during the Olympic game. He's a freak of nature.

If we're in a position to make a cup run, adding Jagr is completely worth it. Even as a rental. I must admit my biased would like to see him play a full year here next year too.

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02-12-2014, 03:24 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Can you explain your first sentence?

I haven't seen one person tell me, using any type of logic or statistic, why we are not "legitimate" contenders.

1) A playoff contender is 1/16 teams. 14 teams are eliminated. All 16 teams have a chance, no matter how small - meaning that the argument of "anything can happen" is improbable - not impossible.
2) We have a balanced offense. Best 4th line we've had in years. All 3 of our lines apply pressure and have offensive potential. In fact, this is the most balanced offense we've had in years too. We have like 10 players in double digits in terms of goals already.
3) We have a dominant and balanced defense. A great shutdown top defensive pairing. A 2nd defensive pairing that is debatably playing as well as our first pairing. A 3rd pairing that is definitely now amongst the best in the league - for a 3rd pairing. They're only getting stronger as the year goes along. That's the trend you want to see as you get closer to the playoffs.
4) We have a top 3 goalie (debatably #1) who is also dominating and improving as the season goes on. Many years, he'd single-handedly take us into the 2nd round by himself.

You telling me we're not legitimate based on a gut feeling or what you think isn't convincing me.

We've been pretty consistent these last 2.5 months. We're trending upwards. PK and PP are both in the top 10.
I explained my view on the roster more fully when we were having the debate about "trades for trades' sake in the previous thread". See here:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...=#post79663449

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