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Miller and McGuire on Ched

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10-02-2003, 04:29 PM
  #1
PineJockey
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Miller and McGuire on Ched

HA! McGuire and Miller are on 630 CHED and are talking about Colorado. Neither one is convinced that they are so great. Specifically they say that the D is weak and the quote of the day is.

"If Martin Skoula was playing in Edmonton he would get booed off the ice. They booed Poti out of town. Skoula is a poor man's Poti"

They also had interesting things to say about Granato. Neither thinks that he is up to the coaching level of the rest of the Western Conference and they say that he got killed by Lemaire vs Minny last year in the playoffs.

They also pointed out that the only 50 goal scorer in the league last year will likey start out on the bench during power plays because of all the people they have to satisfy! Crazy.

Oh, McGuire just mentioned that Semenov is going to be the suprise impact player by the end of the year.

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10-02-2003, 04:57 PM
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Well, every team has weaknesses. It's just that comparatively speaking, Colorado's weaknesses and strengths are like day and night. Whereas most teams have traits that just linger around the average, Colorado has some fairly polar opposites when it comes to team qualities.

Consider:

1a. Arguably the best offense assembled this century. In all seriousness, a very scary and potent forward corps.

1b. Arguably the greatest collection of forwards that need siginificant amounts of ice time to do anything. Too many talented forwards wanting ice time = not enough ice time to spread around.

1c. A big drop-off in talent on the checking lines. Aside from Battaglia and Nikolishin, they have a bunch of prospects looking for jobs. Similar to the Oilers checking lines, but that's not the point. The drop-off in talent isn't as noticeable on the Oilers.

2a. A very strong top 4 on the D-line, including Blake, Morris, Foote, and Skoula.

2b. An iffy 5/6/7 group with Skrastins, McAllister, DJ Smith, Slovak, vying for jobs that perhaps shouldn't be theirs.

3a. A fairly gutsy GM who will do seemingly whatever it takes at trade deadline time to bring the team to the next level.

3b. An inexperienced coach at the NHL level. Lemaire exposed this.

4a. A career backup with adequate upside and serviceable talent will start in net.

4b. A career backup with unproven talent and unrealized upside will start in net.

5a. Good drafting and scouting record with guys like Hejduk, Tanguay, Skoula, Vrbata, Nedorost, Reinprecht, etc. all products of their system.

5b. Trades have sent a lot of that talent elsewhere.

And finally,

6a. A team built for the playoff's with good, veteran, proven players on both offense and defense. Money was spent to get results this year.

6b. A potential CBA crisis will likely make this team a one-year ensemble.

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10-02-2003, 04:58 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PineJockey
Oh, McGuire just mentioned that Semenov is going to be the suprise impact player by the end of the year.
Muahahahaha.... remember I called it first during LT's predictions for the season. Though I don't want Brew to struggle as much as I predicted, I think Semi will overtake Brew this year.

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10-02-2003, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Muahahahaha.... remember I called it first during LT's predictions for the season. Though I don't want Brew to struggle as much as I predicted, I think Semi will overtake Brew this year.
Especially if he gets more PP time and develops a nasty side, he's gonna be great...

On TSN, MacGuire said Hemsky was also going to have people turning there heads and wondering where he came from...He sais Hemsky is in better shape that he was last, he's faster...This could be good...

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10-02-2003, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned
2a. A very strong top 4 on the D-line, including Blake, Morris, Foote, and Skoula.
SKoula and Morris still aren't particularily good in their own end. They are good offensively, but with the Avs forwards, isn't that sort of like putting a spear on the end of a cruise missle?

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10-02-2003, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned
1b. Arguably the greatest collection of forwards that need siginificant amounts of ice time to do anything. Too many talented forwards wanting ice time = not enough ice time to spread around.
What's the reasoning behind that? I don't see this as a problem at all, at least, not at this point.

Teams like St. Louis have one of Pronger or MacInnis on for all but a few minutes of ice time. Now Colorado can play a top forward line for 70% of all ice time every game without burning out either top unit or wearing them down over the season. These guys are used to playing 22+ minutes a night...sometimes 27 minutes. They can cruise through the season at 19-22 minutes a piece and still be rested for the playoffs.

There's plenty of ice time for the forwards. Well, maybe not 1st unit PP, but then just rotate if its a locker room issue. And if Granato is even half good the top units will get lots. It won't matter one whit who's on the 4th line...because they will hardly see the ice. Strike that, if all goes well for them, they'll see plenty of 3rd period ice when closing out the game with a 3 goal lead.

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10-02-2003, 08:44 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
SKoula and Morris still aren't particularily good in their own end. They are good offensively, but with the Avs forwards, isn't that sort of like putting a spear on the end of a cruise missle?
lol, hahaha, spear..... cruise missle... lol
I have to agree with you though!

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Old
10-02-2003, 09:17 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by oilswell
What's the reasoning behind that? I don't see this as a problem at all, at least, not at this point.

Teams like St. Louis have one of Pronger or MacInnis on for all but a few minutes of ice time. Now Colorado can play a top forward line for 70% of all ice time every game without burning out either top unit or wearing them down over the season. These guys are used to playing 22+ minutes a night...sometimes 27 minutes. They can cruise through the season at 19-22 minutes a piece and still be rested for the playoffs.

There's plenty of ice time for the forwards. Well, maybe not 1st unit PP, but then just rotate if its a locker room issue. And if Granato is even half good the top units will get lots. It won't matter one whit who's on the 4th line...because they will hardly see the ice. Strike that, if all goes well for them, they'll see plenty of 3rd period ice when closing out the game with a 3 goal lead.
That's all well and good when the "first line" produces. It's not as simple as that, though. Slumps and line juggling WILL lead to unforseen problems; some players might be unhappy, some will want more ice time, some will struggle with new teammates, etc. And as you mentioned, locker room problems could arise as well. In principle, it's all well and good. But try telling the NYR that. A team can't have too many star players in hockey simply because it is a substitution game. This isn't soccer where you can load up because every star can be on the pitch for the majority of the game. Star players thrive on ice time and being played in key situations. Their play CAN suffer if they don't play enough, or if they feel as though they are being underused.

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10-02-2003, 11:13 PM
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In Colorado's case, I think it will depend on the players ego's. When Kariya and Selanne were brought in, I think that the whole team understood that it was going to be an enseble cast this year, and I think that all guys understand that collective good is always victorious over individual gain. I see a decrease in production and some line juggling, but with the talent they have, we all know that they will be a well-oiled machine come April, as much as I hate that.

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10-02-2003, 11:19 PM
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It always makes my ears itch when I hear Eastern Analysts be kind enough to cross the Ontario border and report a story that doesnt include The Leafs, Sens or Habs.

It will be interesting to see the development of Hemsky and Semenov this year. I think both can be really dangerous and Hemsky can be a serious threat for 60-70 pts. this season (pre-season optimism).

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10-03-2003, 06:01 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned
some will want more ice time
You make some good points and I fully agree many problems may arise. The amount of ice time, however, other than 1st line PP time, I still can't see a problem.

Forsberg, Sakic, and Hejduk have been averaging about 20 minutes a game. Kariya used to average 25 but he's been dropping every year and last year he was averaging 20. These minutes factor in OT. Say they do demand a lot of ice time. I could still see them each dropping to 17-18 mins/non-OT game without issues. This means about 34-36 minutes per game for top line material with the bottom two lines splitting the remaining 14-16 minutes.

What coach would say to a Kariya-Sakic-Selanne line: "sorry, I can't give you more than 14 minutes a game because I have to put on the Aubin line". Maybe you have disgruntled third/fourth liners, but is that the big deal?

I can't even imagine what Keenan would do.

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10-03-2003, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
You make some good points and I fully agree many problems may arise. The amount of ice time, however, other than 1st line PP time, I still can't see a problem.

Forsberg, Sakic, and Hejduk have been averaging about 20 minutes a game. Kariya used to average 25 but he's been dropping every year and last year he was averaging 20. These minutes factor in OT. Say they do demand a lot of ice time. I could still see them each dropping to 17-18 mins/non-OT game without issues. This means about 34-36 minutes per game for top line material with the bottom two lines splitting the remaining 14-16 minutes.

What coach would say to a Kariya-Sakic-Selanne line: "sorry, I can't give you more than 14 minutes a game because I have to put on the Aubin line". Maybe you have disgruntled third/fourth liners, but is that the big deal?

I can't even imagine what Keenan would do.
Hmm, good points. I guess you're right on a number of issues. I still think there is the potential for major problems with ice time, but I can see how it shouldn't be a problem if handled correctly. The corollary is, of course, that Colorado has an inexperienced coach handling this situation. Can Granato successfully utilize his forward talent, or will the team end up vastly underachieving?

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10-03-2003, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
That's all well and good when the "first line" produces. It's not as simple as that, though. Slumps and line juggling WILL lead to unforseen problems; some players might be unhappy, some will want more ice time, some will struggle with new teammates, etc. And as you mentioned, locker room problems could arise as well. In principle, it's all well and good. But try telling the NYR that. A team can't have too many star players in hockey simply because it is a substitution game. This isn't soccer where you can load up because every star can be on the pitch for the majority of the game. Star players thrive on ice time and being played in key situations. Their play CAN suffer if they don't play enough, or if they feel as though they are being underused.
I don't really see locker room issues as much of a problem in this case. Most of the top guys, Kariya, Selanne, Sakic, Forsberg seem to have reputations as guys who'll do anything to win, including sacrificing ego and icetime. Kariya and Selanne, just want to play together, and I mean c'mon, they're proably going to be centred by Sakic. This is probably a dream for these guys. They sacrifice at best, 5 minutes of ice time a game, but they get to play with Sakic instead of some plugger.
I would think even in an inexperienced coach could come up with some kind of straightforward system: Each unit takes turns on being the #1 line, on a game-to-gamebasis or even a powerplay-powerplay basis

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10-03-2003, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Marconius
I would think even in an inexperienced coach could come up with some kind of straightforward system: Each unit takes turns on being the #1 line, on a game-to-gamebasis or even a powerplay-powerplay basis
Well, that's what I forsee as being a potential problem. It's all well and good when both lines can take turns producing. But when one or both lines begin to slump, then what do you do? Play the hot line as much as possible, leaving star players on the second line without much ice time? That isn't efficient, or a good use of money. And what if certain players on each line are struggling, while others are doing well? Then what do you do? Demote one of the star forwards to the third line? It's more difficult than people think to create a "straightforward" system; everything is simple in principle when theories lead to results. The difficulty lies in trying to improvise when things don't go well. Especially when you have so many star forwards to divide the ice time up to.

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10-03-2003, 03:41 PM
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Well, when you have proverbial "star players" you don't demote them anyway.

Take Edmonton for example though I wouldn't exactly call Smyth a "star". If he was majorly struggling, I doubt the Oilers would feel it would be most beneficial to demote him to the third line until he got up to speed. Demotions are for players that haven't really proved themselves time and again that they can play themselves out of a slump at any time.

Guys like Kariya, Selanne, Sakic, Forsberg, etc. can. Tony Granato wouldn't have to demote anyone at all. After all, you have to ride your best players... If they don't perform, then you are probably screwed anyway. You keep both lines on the ice because you know that at any given time within a game, they are all gamebreakers.

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10-03-2003, 08:07 PM
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Least played 4th line in hockey. Colorado's.

They'll be lucky to get 4 minutes a game.

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