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Bertuzzi's shameful reinstatement

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Old
08-10-2005, 01:30 PM
  #51
Volcanologist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phelan
Yeah that punch to the head that knocked him out on his feet did nothing. Neither did him smacking his head on the ice with the force of tuzzi on top of him. Neither did having tuzzi's fist at the base of his neck driving his head into the ice, have anything to do with his injured neck. It was the pile on. In fact, Moore probably would've fallen down anyways, and a pile on would've ensued, and he would've been just as equally injured.

The real victim is Todd Bertuzzi!!
When is the NHL going to put a stop to these pile ons???



Exactly.

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08-10-2005, 02:17 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
Either way the Canucks made it futher then the Leafs in 02/03, and would have in 03/04 had Todd been in the lineup.

There's no denying any of that
Prove it.

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Old
08-10-2005, 02:21 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
Either way the Canucks made it futher then the Leafs in 02/03, and would have in 03/04 had Todd been in the lineup.

There's no denying any of that
I find it easy to deny the second point. "Would-have-beens" are rather impossible to prove. Vancouver was a good team, but so were the Leafs.

And we were missing some of our key players, but the point is that you have to win with the players who are healthy.

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Old
08-11-2005, 09:03 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phelan
Yeah that punch to the head that knocked him out on his feet did nothing. Neither did him smacking his head on the ice with the force of tuzzi on top of him. Neither did having tuzzi's fist at the base of his neck driving his head into the ice, have anything to do with his injured neck. It was the pile on. In fact, Moore probably would've fallen down anyways, and a pile on would've ensued, and he would've been just as equally injured.

The real victim is Todd Bertuzzi!!
When is the NHL going to put a stop to these pile ons???

I hope the others recognize this as irony and not take it literally. Sometimes you need a 2 x 4 to get some folks to recognize what you are stating when you are subtle.

Nicely stated.

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08-11-2005, 09:35 AM
  #55
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Hmmn, I could have sworn I'd posted this yesterday...
I dont thing what Bert did was nearly as bad as what Domi did to either Ulf Samuelson or to Neids ...Ulf may have been a dirty player and hated, but Domi blindly and without warning sucker punch and knocked him out and only got 8 games!! ...Neids was just as bad ...the only difference is how much damage the players took ...had either Neids, or Samuelson been hurt more seriously how would the suspension have changed ...and why should it be more since he did what he did? It shouldnt matter the result, the suspension should be based on the action and the action alone ...Bert was trying to goad Moore into a fight and was harassing him up the ice, he knew Bert was there and coming for him, while neither Ulf, or Neids knew that Domi was going to do something vicious, yet only 8 games for Domi.
What that MTL prospect did (name escapes me) was far worse than Bert, or Domi, but I dont think the NHL will not let him play. I remember Ciccarelli chopping up Richardson's helmet, that was much worse than what Bert did but hey, Dino did get a day in jail, and $1000 fine.

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Old
08-11-2005, 09:41 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
Hmmn, I could have sworn I'd posted this yesterday...
I dont thing what Bert did was nearly as bad as what Domi did to either Ulf Samuelson or to Neids ...Ulf may have been a dirty player and hated, but Domi blindly and without warning sucker punch and knocked him out and only got 8 games!! ...Neids was just as bad ...the only difference is how much damage the players took ...had either Neids, or Samuelson been hurt more seriously how would the suspension have changed ...and why should it be more since he did what he did? It shouldnt matter the result, the suspension should be based on the action and the action alone ...Bert was trying to goad Moore into a fight and was harassing him up the ice, he knew Bert was there and coming for him, while neither Ulf, or Neids knew that Domi was going to do something vicious, yet only 8 games for Domi.
What that MTL prospect did (name escapes me) was far worse than Bert, or Domi, but I dont think the NHL will not let him play. I remember Ciccarelli chopping up Richardson's helmet, that was much worse than what Bert did but hey, Dino did get a day in jail, and $1000 fine.
I think you need a finer sense of proportion. My point would be not to lessen Bertuzzi's punishment (beyond the relative slap on the wrist) but to increase the penalties for non-hockey game related thuggishness - including Domi's ridiculous elbow on Neidermeyer. I think assault is assault whether or not within a game and if I can't come to your home and knock your head onto the floor then neither can thug Bertuzzi be allowed to do so because he is in uniform.

A criminal act is a criminal act is a criminal act.

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08-11-2005, 10:14 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
I think you need a finer sense of proportion. My point would be not to lessen Bertuzzi's punishment (beyond the relative slap on the wrist) but to increase the penalties for non-hockey game related thuggishness - including Domi's ridiculous elbow on Neidermeyer. I think assault is assault whether or not within a game and if I can't come to your home and knock your head onto the floor then neither can thug Bertuzzi be allowed to do so because he is in uniform.

A criminal act is a criminal act is a criminal act.
You missunderstand me now.
What I meant by all this wasnt that Bertuzzi was overpunished, but Domi, and the rest were not punished enough.
The League needs to set specific punishments that are based only on the action commited and not on the end result/injury of the player attacked.

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08-11-2005, 10:48 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
You missunderstand me now.
What I meant by all this wasnt that Bertuzzi was overpunished, but Domi, and the rest were not punished enough.
The League needs to set specific punishments that are based only on the action commited and not on the end result/injury of the player attacked.

Then we are in complete agreement. I think it is a great idea to define a crime by the process and not necessarily the outcome.

Sorry for missing your point which is quite intelligent.

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Old
08-11-2005, 05:41 PM
  #59
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This thread is such a laugh for various reasons. Some good posts too though.

My opinion is this:

Bertuzzi got a year and a half suspension and has served his time.

Then again, I am also of the feeling that the cheap-shot on Moore was not the worst act ever committed in the NHL. In fact, the Avs' Peter Worrell committed a very similar act against the Sharks (I think he wailed Dimitrakos in the back of the head).

While Moore's injury ought to be in the back of the minds of Bettman, we also much understand the concept that the suspension, in comparison to any other league suspension, is by far the longest ever given out (I am counting the lockout since he was not allowed to work overseas).

While you may feel Bertuzzi is not sufficiently punished, I would stress that it is not the NHL's duty to punish Bertuzzi further, but it's the legal system's duty. And I believe he was also doing some form of community services around the city of Vancouver for some months, was he not? I could be wrong mind you.

Anyways, it sounds like Moore could be playing pro hockey soon, too.

I believe any further talk about suspension is just pure biblical revenge. If you are one of those that *really really really* didn't like the hit, that's fine. But when you start going into legal issues, that's not for the NHL to dissect.

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Old
08-11-2005, 06:22 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
This thread is such a laugh for various reasons.

My opinion is this:
Bertuzzi got a year and a half suspension and has served his time.
When did he serve it?

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Old
08-11-2005, 11:02 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
When did he serve it?
You guys are sick...if this was Sundin who did it...each and everyone of you would say he served his time.

FREE BERT is what the majority thinks

and MAJORITY RULES

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08-11-2005, 11:14 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
You guys are sick...
Sick? Someone is sick because they disagree with you? And who do you mean by "You guys"? Are you one of those people who likes to characterise all Leafs fans as having precisely the same opinion and personality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
if this was Sundin who did it...each and everyone of you would say he served his time.
It's hard to imagine such a scenario, and no one knows what the opinions would be if it did happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
FREE BERT is what the majority thinks

and MAJORITY RULES
Actually the majority has nothing to do with it. One man, Gary Bettman, makes the call. I happen to think he did the right thing, but I have reached such an enlightened stage that I don't think someone is "sick" if they disagree.

I might question how one can know what the "majority" thinks anyway, but that might be getting too deep.

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Old
08-11-2005, 11:21 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
You guys are sick...if this was Sundin who did it...each and everyone of you would say he served his time.

FREE BERT is what the majority thinks

and MAJORITY RULES
I'm sick and Bertuzzi is ok?

My ignore list is filling up fast.
Welcome to it.

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Old
08-11-2005, 11:28 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
Sick? Someone is sick because they disagree with you? And who do you mean by "You guys"? Are you one of those people who likes to characterise all Leafs fans as having precisely the same opinion and personality?


It's hard to imagine such a scenario, and no one knows what the opinions would be if it did happen.


Actually the majority has nothing to do with it. One man, Gary Bettman, makes the call. I happen to think he did the right thing, but I have reached such an enlightened stage that I don't think someone is "sick" if they disagree.

I might question how one can know what the "majority" thinks anyway, but that might be getting too deep.
No, it's just typical how a lot of Leaf Fans think the same way.

If you knew anything about Bertuzzi you'd know that he is a very kind, and well spoken person.

Not to mention one of the best players in hockey.

He admits to the mistake, and has served a lot of time and his life will never be the same again.

It was hard for me to picture Bertuzzi doing this, just like it's hard for you to picture Sundin doing something so terrible.

Oh, and the majority has everything to do with it...Majority always matters. If 90% of people thought Todd should still be suspended you have to think he would be.

BTW, I will surely be able to sleep at night knowing LeafLover has me on ignore...I'm going to miss talking to him.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:53 AM
  #65
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the ultimate punishment -- going on leafover's ignore list :eek

Leafover please put me on you list. I'm sure there would be many who would want be on your list.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:58 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown
the ultimate punishment -- going on leafover's ignore list :eek

Leafover please put me on you list. I'm sure there would be many who would want be on your list.
Done

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Old
08-12-2005, 01:00 AM
  #67
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I am actually in favour of his reinsatllment during the Free agent signing frenzy

so attention isnt focused on this dark incident
The game needs to market itself with it 's fresh new start with brand new players on many differnet teams,

The game does not need to rehash bad news in november which would be followed by bad media coverage.So reinsttalling him now is good cause it can be white washed and quickly forgotten about.

Bertuzzi is too good of a player to keep out of the nhl
hockey is played in a very testosteron adrenalized way bertuzzi was under the influence of the monent .
I am posative that in no way would he had done that in a normal environment.
I am shocked that it doesnt occur more often really!

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08-12-2005, 05:19 AM
  #68
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Leave bert alone. he deserves to play. Moore's injuries aren't all from what bert did did you notice that 4+ guys jump'd onto bert and moore. 800 lbs jumping onto a 220 lbs guy that was on more does alot more damage then the initial 220.

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08-12-2005, 05:38 AM
  #69
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First, I did not read this entire thread and I'm not planning to.

20 odd games isn't punishment enough for Bertuzzi in my books, sure they can claim he got more becuase of the lockout and that he wasn't allowed to sign in europe but the fact of the matter is that he only served a 20 game suspension in the NHL. Not nearly enough IMO. They should've sat him out till December atleast.

So he spent a few more games off more than players that didn't play in the playoffs last year. Too god damn little IMO! What message does this send? If a brashear or a Domi did that you damn well know they would've got more than that. They would've made an example of them for sure.

The difference is: But it's tuzzi! aaaw! my eyes are tearing up.

Scoring 40 goals doesn't lift the responsibility of not seriously injuring your fellow players IMO.


Last edited by LeeIs: 08-12-2005 at 05:56 AM.
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Old
08-12-2005, 08:23 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
No, it's just typical how a lot of Leaf Fans think the same way.
A lot of fans of any team think the same way. A lot of Leafs fans think differently. A more objective reading of this thread shows Leafs arguing with each other about the Bertuzzi punishment.

Your approach in this thread smacks of the silly bigotry that a few posters have against anyone who happens to cheer for the Leafs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
. . .
Oh, and the majority has everything to do with it...Majority always matters. If 90% of people thought Todd should still be suspended you have to think he would be.
Actually, I don't have to think that at all. I am not aware of any credible scientific poll that can tell us what the majority thinks of the Bertuzzi punishment, but I would be shocked if 90% (or anywhere near that) agreed with you and me.

Even if they did, it's still up to one man- Gary Bettman. I'm quite sure he doesn't commission a poll before he makes his decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
BTW, I will surely be able to sleep at night knowing LeafLover has me on ignore...I'm going to miss talking to him.
If you think it's a good thing to approach human relationships that way, then I guess I won't be able to change your mind.

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Old
08-12-2005, 08:46 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Anyways, it sounds like Moore could be playing pro hockey soon, too.
Moore may have never played another NHL game in his life if he never even met Bertuzzi.
...He was an injury callup on a very depleted team at the time.

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Old
08-12-2005, 08:50 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
Moore may have never played another NHL game in his life if he never even met Bertuzzi.
...He was an injury callup on a very depleted team at the time.

And the six year old victim of a drive-by shooting may never have become a productive citizen had they grown up.

That makes a difference?

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Old
08-12-2005, 08:55 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
The game does not need to rehash bad news in november which would be followed by bad media coverage.So reinsttalling him now is good cause it can be white washed and quickly forgotten about.

Bertuzzi is too good of a player to keep out of the nhl
hockey is played in a very testosteron adrenalized way bertuzzi was under the influence of the monent .
I am posative that in no way would he had done that in a normal environment.
I am shocked that it doesnt occur more often really!
1) therefore all prisoners should be released from prison at the end of November so we won't have to be concerned about such things at Christmas?

2) if a mediocre player hits another player over the head with a stick it is okay to severely punish him but if a star does the same thing we should slap him on the wrist?

3) all sports are played with adrenaline pumping. Most violent crimes are committed under a state of excitement. This is a valid defense in court? "Not guilty due to overstimulation?"

4) if "punishments" like Bertuzzi's become the norm then it is more likely that these things will occur more often. A 2-year suspension or, God forbid, a term in jail would make it less likely that these things would occur more often.

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Old
08-12-2005, 09:06 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFan44
If you knew anything about Bertuzzi you'd know that he is a very kind, and well spoken person.

He admits to the mistake, and has served a lot of time and his life will never be the same again.
Yes, I saw him last week leading an elderly lady across the street, then giving $500 to a panhandler, kissing two babies, and finally curing cancer. I suppose if Ronald Reagan could be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize (which has actually been won by the murderer Henry Kissinger) then Todd Bertuzzi could be described as very kind and I'm sure that he is also better spoken than Steve Moore who only graduated from Harvard.

His remorse reminds me of the crocodile tears of politicians and business executives when they are caught out and under punished because they have suffered enough and their lives will never be the same again.

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08-12-2005, 09:28 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
And the six year old victim of a drive-by shooting may never have become a productive citizen had they grown up.

That makes a difference?
All I'm saying is that Moore was/is a Fringe NHL player ...and even if he was healthy today, and the Bertuzzi incident never took place, he still may not be in the NHL today.

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