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Bertuzzi's shameful reinstatement

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Old
08-12-2005, 09:34 AM
  #76
Leaf Lander
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it is still a black eye for the sport

bertuzzi is a great talent

time to move on or a open wound will continue to be a pain for the sport

let the story slip away it is best for the game

its not the first time that unsensible violence has marked hockey and it won't be the last a incident a yr occurs which makes it parto f life unfortunatley. It is too bad that a young players career was cut short but he will be compensatedim sure

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08-12-2005, 10:30 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
All I'm saying is that Moore was/is a Fringe NHL player ...and even if he was healthy today, and the Bertuzzi incident never took place, he still may not be in the NHL today.

Meaningless, if possibly valid, point. If the Bertuzzi incident had never taken place neither would I be in the NHL today.

It is irrelevant, absolutely irrelevant, what kind of player Moore was or could have been. It means nothing.

If he had never played another minute Burtuzzi's crime would have been just as great; if he had been a potential Hall of Famer Bertuzzi's crime would've been just as great.

I will be much happier when we stop describing the victim in analyzing the aggressor.

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Old
08-12-2005, 10:34 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
its not the first time that unsensible violence has marked hockey and it won't be the last a incident a yr occurs which makes it parto f life unfortunatley. It is too bad that a young players career was cut short but he will be compensatedim sure

"Too bad?" You seem very content with the probability that a civil lawsuit will compensate Moore. A financial compensation is wholly inadequate for the pain and suffering and possible permanent pain and suffering to be experienced by the victim.

An absolute lack of empathy and compassion mark your post.

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Old
08-12-2005, 10:36 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
it is still a black eye for the sport

bertuzzi is a great talent

time to move on or a open wound will continue to be a pain for the sport

let the story slip away it is best for the game

its not the first time that unsensible violence has marked hockey and it won't be the last a incident a yr occurs which makes it parto f life unfortunatley. It is too bad that a young players career was cut short but he will be compensatedim sure

The "punishment" is the true black eye for the sport. The inadequacy of the punishment is why it is difficult for me and many others to move on.

What is best for the game is not sweeping the entire incident under the rug but making an example of Bertuzzi so that others will be less likely to follow in his felonious footsteps. What is best for the game is the elimination of pure thuggery.

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08-12-2005, 11:32 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
. . . What is best for the game is the elimination of pure thuggery.
I don't disagree with you. But there are a lot of old school hockey people (fans and people in the game) who think fighting is an inherent, logical, necessary part of the game.

Other sports don't need it, but apparently hockey does.

They justify their position by pointing out that all the fans rise to their feet and cheer when there's a fight. No doubt they do. I would rise to my feet, also, if someone took out a sword and starting stabbing people. Perhaps the NHL is missing out on something here.

If we are going to get rid of Bertuzzi type incudents, I think we need to ban fighting altogether. Otherwise players feel they have a legal right to attack someone else's body, and there will be times when they do so in a highly dangerous manner.

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Old
08-12-2005, 11:44 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
I don't disagree with you. But there are a lot of old school hockey people (fans and people in the game) who think fighting is an inherent, logical, necessary part of the game.

Other sports don't need it, but apparently hockey does.

They justify their position by pointing out that all the fans rise to their feet and cheer when there's a fight. No doubt they do. I would rise to my feet, also, if someone took out a sword and starting stabbing people. Perhaps the NHL is missing out on something here.

If we are going to get rid of Bertuzzi type incudents, I think we need to ban fighting altogether. Otherwise players feel they have a legal right to attack someone else's body, and there will be times when they do so in a highly dangerous manner.
Yes, this 60s peacenik would like to get rid of fighting which is not a logical part of the game. Bodychecks, skating, passing, shooting, shotblocking and numerous other skills are logical parts of the game. Fighting is an entertaining add-on which is obviously enjoyed greatly by fans and by certain wildly dressed commentators. You can't have hockey without skating and stickhandling and passing, but you can certainly have hockey without fighting. When the bench-clearing rule went into effect hockey rid itself of bench-clearing brawls and the sport survived.

I think you made my point nicely, even though I think you disagree with it. Thanks.

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08-12-2005, 11:56 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
I don't disagree with you. But there are a lot of old school hockey people (fans and people in the game) who think fighting is an inherent, logical, necessary part of the game.

Other sports don't need it, but apparently hockey does.

They justify their position by pointing out that all the fans rise to their feet and cheer when there's a fight. No doubt they do. I would rise to my feet, also, if someone took out a sword and starting stabbing people. Perhaps the NHL is missing out on something here.

If we are going to get rid of Bertuzzi type incudents, I think we need to ban fighting altogether. Otherwise players feel they have a legal right to attack someone else's body, and there will be times when they do so in a highly dangerous manner.
pure garbage.

what bertuzzi did has nothing to do with fighting. its apples and oranges.

infact, i'd say if there was more fighting, there would be less incidents like bertuzzi's.

fighting is part of what makes hockey so much better then any other sport. to compare fighting to what bertuzzi did shows an absolute lack of knowledge of the game.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:04 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
pure garbage.

what bertuzzi did has nothing to do with fighting. its apples and oranges.

infact, i'd say if there was more fighting, there would be less incidents like bertuzzi's.

fighting is part of what makes hockey so much better then any other sport. to compare fighting to what bertuzzi did shows an absolute lack of knowledge of the game.

How sad, frankie, that you identify fighting as that unique aspect of hockey that makes it better than any other sport. It follows that Tiger Williams or Roy or Domi or Belak dropping the gloves is far more beautiful and compelling than Orr going end to end, or a no-look pass onto the stick by Gretzky, or a breakaway by LeFleur, or a Joe Sakic wrister, or a Hasek acrobatic save, or Coffey skating up ice.

You either have no appreciation for true hockey skills or you just love to see two jerks whaling away at each other. Why not stick to wrestling or tractor pulls which are true sports?

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:05 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
what bertuzzi did has nothing to do with fighting. its apples and oranges.

infact, i'd say if there was more fighting, there would be less incidents like bertuzzi's.

fighting is part of what makes hockey so much better then any other sport. to compare fighting to what bertuzzi did shows an absolute lack of knowledge of the game.
Moore had already fought in that game.

Bertuzzi still attacked Moore from behind.

Fighting is not allowed in hockey, it is a offense under the rules. It is the punishment which is in dispute. Should players who fight be banned/suspended/penalized 5/10/20 minutes?

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:16 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
what bertuzzi did has nothing to do with fighting.. . .
Punching someone in the head and jumping on them is fighting where I come from.

I don't think Bertuzzi set out to break Moore's neck, he wanted to fight the guy, to teach him a lesson. Why did he want to do that? Because Canadian hockey culture has taught him it's an honourable thing to do.

You can't teach a guy that fighting is a great thing and then condemn him when he breaks some vague code about precisely what is and what is not allowed in these barbaric games.

Oops. Too late. We already did that.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:17 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
How sad, frankie, that you identify fighting as that unique aspect of hockey that makes it better than any other sport. It follows that Tiger Williams or Roy or Domi or Belak dropping the gloves is far more beautiful and compelling than Orr going end to end, or a no-look pass onto the stick by Gretzky, or a breakaway by LeFleur, or a Joe Sakic wrister, or a Hasek acrobatic save, or Coffey skating up ice.
no, you're putting words in my mouth. i love the skill of hockey, and i love the physical side of hockey. that's not sad. there's nothing wrong with that.

a hockey fight is far more beautiful than shaq posting up on someone. or ricky williams running into a wall of 400 pounders.

fighting is part of what makes hockey so awesome.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:19 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Moore had already fought in that game.

Bertuzzi still attacked Moore from behind.

Fighting is not allowed in hockey, it is a offense under the rules. It is the punishment which is in dispute. Should players who fight be banned/suspended/penalized 5/10/20 minutes?
yes moore has already fought. he had paid the piper for what he did to naslund. that's why bertuzzi should still be suspended. it made bertuzzi's act even more inexcusable.

you're right, fighting is against the rules. 5 minute major is fine.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:23 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
Punching someone in the head and jumping on them is fighting where I come from.

I don't think Bertuzzi set out to break Moore's neck, he wanted to fight the guy, to teach him a lesson. Why did he want to do that? Because Canadian hockey culture has taught him it's an honourable thing to do.
you're showing a total lack of knowledge about hockey. you're obviously brand new to following the game.

if you think what bertuzzi did was a hockey fight, then this is a pointless argument.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:28 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
. . .
a hockey fight is far more beautiful than shaq posting up on someone. or ricky williams running into a wall of 400 pounders.
Actually most hockey fights are just two guys hugging aggressively and whacking each other somewhat ineffectively. Not pretty or exciting. For beautiful fighting watch boxing. An amateur boxer could hammer any hockey player in a fight, because they are trained how to fight.

Fighting will likely continue to be a part of the game for awhile, until guys like you and Don Cherry can be made to see that there is a direct connection between what happened to Steve Moore and the whole fighting culture of (Canadian) hockey.

Perhaps someone will be killed. That's the sort of thing that galvanises change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
fighting is part of what makes hockey so awesome.
I've played hokcey all my life and I've never needed nor wanted fighting to be a part of it. It's been awesome without it.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:29 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
a hockey fight is far more beautiful than shaq posting up on someone. or ricky williams running into a wall of 400 pounders.

fighting is part of what makes hockey so awesome.

Your hockey is not my hockey.

We shall watch our hockey from different vantage points.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:32 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
you're showing a total lack of knowledge about hockey. you're obviously brand new to following the game.
.
Timlap has forgotten more about hockey than you will ever know.

Calm down. Defend your indefensible point.

Respect your betters.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:48 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
Actually most hockey fights are just two guys hugging aggressively and whacking each other somewhat ineffectively. Not pretty or exciting. For beautiful fighting watch boxing. An amateur boxer could hammer any hockey player in a fight, because they are trained how to fight.
still more exciting than any other sport, and hockey fans do rise and cheer for a fight.

put a boxer and a hockey player on skates and lets see who wins that fight. not the boxer.

Quote:
Fighting will likely continue to be a part of the game for awhile, until guys like you and Don Cherry can be made to see that there is a direct connection between what happened to Steve Moore and the whole fighting culture of (Canadian) hockey.
until the left-wing, tree hugging, european loving folks see that there is no connection, we'll have to keep listening to this garbage.

i've been told to watch boxing instead. geez guys, fact is fighting is part of hockey, so if you hate it so much, don't watch hockey. watch figure skating.

and what's with ripping canadian hockey? i expect you'll be cheering for sweden in the olympics?

Quote:
I've played hokcey all my life and I've never needed nor wanted fighting to be a part of it. It's been awesome without it.
i'm trying not to insult your intelligence, but if you've been a hockey fan all your life, and you don't know the difference between a hockey fight and what todd bertuzzi did, then i have to question your brain power.

you're not stupid, so you must be new at this.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:51 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie

until the left-wing, tree hugging, european loving folks see that there is no connection, we'll have to keep listening to this garbage.

.
Got me! Aaaaaagh. I repent that I love trees and Europe and I have been known to oppose right-wingers.

Forgive me, I knew not what I had done.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:51 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
Timlap has forgotten more about hockey than you will ever know.
perhaps he has forgotten or perhaps he never knew in the first place, but he sure isn't showing much knowledge at the moment.

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Old
08-12-2005, 12:53 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Recidivist
Your hockey is not my hockey.

We shall watch our hockey from different vantage points.
fine. just stop complaining and telling me that they should change the rules to suit what you want.

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08-12-2005, 12:59 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
still more exciting than any other sport, and hockey fans do rise and cheer for a fight.

put a boxer and a hockey player on skates and lets see who wins that fight. not the boxer.
If the boxer gets in a single punch it's all over. If the hockey player can hug the boxer and fall on him, he wins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
until the left-wing, tree hugging, european loving folks see that there is no connection, we'll have to keep listening to this garbage.
Some people hug trees, others hug sweaty hockey players and try to whack them on the helmet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
i've been told to watch boxing instead. geez guys, fact is fighting is part of hockey, so if you hate it so much, don't watch hockey. watch figure skating.
Figure skating is okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
and what's with ripping canadian hockey? i expect you'll be cheering for sweden in the olympics?
I like Sweden. I have a couple of good friends there. So they are my second favourite team, but I always cheer for Canada.

But when Canada shows her ugly side, such as when we reward young boys for taking out their aggression physically on each other, then I am not proud of her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
. . .then i have to question your brain power.
That's just silly. Lets deal with each other's points and leave out the personal attacks.


Last edited by timlap: 08-12-2005 at 01:08 PM.
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Old
08-12-2005, 01:01 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
fine. just stop complaining and telling me that they should change the rules to suit what you want.
2 game suspension and game misconduct for fighting. 5 games if fight occurs before puck is dropped or in last 5 minutes of game.

Not too complicated.

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Old
08-12-2005, 08:55 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
If the boxer gets in a single punch it's all over. If the hockey player can hug the boxer and fall on him, he wins!
i'll put brandon sugden up against any boxer in the world on skates. sugden wins 10 out of 10.

Quote:
That's just silly. Lets deal with each other's points and leave out the personal attacks.
there's nothing silly here. there's no personal attack.

you're not stupid. you don't believe a word of what you're saying. i know you're just arguing for the fun of it.

some people here do that a lot.

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Old
08-12-2005, 08:57 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
2 game suspension and game misconduct for fighting. 5 games if fight occurs before puck is dropped or in last 5 minutes of game.

Not too complicated.
its even less complicated than that.

don't change the rules. people who don't like hockey can turn off their tvs.

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08-12-2005, 10:22 PM
  #100
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I had been intentionally avoiding reading this thread because I'm not at all interested in reading about the Bertuzzi thing anymore. But now that I see it's turned into a debate about fighting in hockey, I need to put my two cents in.

First of all the issue of fighting in hockey should not even be brought up in a discussion about what Bertuzzi did. That wasn't a fight.

Secondly. I take offense to people acting as though liking a hockey fight is something to be ashamed about. I love fighting in hockey. It's one of the many aspects of hockey I like.

Two of my favourite players on the Leafs are Tomas Kaberle and Wade Belak. What in the world is wrong with that? Both are good at their role and both bring something to the team. But some people seem to think you can't like both Belak and Kaberle at the same time.

Why should I have to choose between "skilled hockey" and fighting? Why am I not allowed to like both? What is "skilled hockey" anyway? Pierre Turgeon is pretty skilled but I find Tie Domi to be a lot more entertaining and exciting to watch than Turgeon.

Fighting has been in the NHL forever. It's part of the game and part of what makes hockey great. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

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