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Drastic measures! (Not an overreaction :) )

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02-19-2014, 02:14 PM
  #1
Atas2000
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Drastic measures! (Not an overreaction :) )

I think it is time for a change. The 90s slump is biting us in the ***. Trying to maneuver around it without getting a slap in the face didn't work.

Soviet hockey is no more. There is no clear brand of russian hockey so far. We need to build it from the scratch starting with:

1.Excluding several star players from consideration for the NT until they show they want to work hard every game.

2.Give a guy like Bragin a chance to work with a NT basically built around his U20 team.

3.Give KHLers more credit.(Not Mozyakin!) Young guys like Malykhin need to be on team more than some superstars from the NHL who obviously don't care much about a lost game for their country.

4.Don't whine about lost EHT games, WCs, but really rebuild and wait and endure.

5.Go into next Olympics with a young team of hungry individuals and a few vets, no matter from what league.

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02-19-2014, 02:47 PM
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Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
I think it is time for a change. The 90s slump is biting us in the ***. Trying to maneuver around it without getting a slap in the face didn't work.

Soviet hockey is no more. There is no clear brand of russian hockey so far. We need to build it from the scratch starting with:

1.Excluding several star players from consideration for the NT until they show they want to work hard every game.

2.Give a guy like Bragin a chance to work with a NT basically built around his U20 team.

3.Give KHLers more credit.(Not Mozyakin!) Young guys like Malykhin need to be on team more than some superstars from the NHL who obviously don't care much about a lost game for their country.

4.Don't whine about lost EHT games, WCs, but really rebuild and wait and endure.

5.Go into next Olympics with a young team of hungry individuals and a few vets, no matter from what league.
I agree, particularly in light of reports that suggest that the NHL has already decided to drop out of the Olympic Games. That provides a perfect opportunity to start over and develop a new kind of team suitable for post-NHL action. They could go back to the national team concept, or create an all-star team from KHL ranks. Either way, blow the old house up and build a new one!

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02-19-2014, 03:39 PM
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I think the idea that they don't care is overblown. For years it was always "Russians don't care about the Stanley Cup, all they care about is gold medals"

now you lose and its "Russians don't care about gold medals, all they care about is the NHL"

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02-19-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
I think it is time for a change. The 90s slump is biting us in the ***. Trying to maneuver around it without getting a slap in the face didn't work.

Soviet hockey is no more. There is no clear brand of russian hockey so far. We need to build it from the scratch starting with:

1.Excluding several star players from consideration for the NT until they show they want to work hard every game.

2.Give a guy like Bragin a chance to work with a NT basically built around his U20 team.

3.Give KHLers more credit.(Not Mozyakin!) Young guys like Malykhin need to be on team more than some superstars from the NHL who obviously don't care much about a lost game for their country.

4.Don't whine about lost EHT games, WCs, but really rebuild and wait and endure.

5.Go into next Olympics with a young team of hungry individuals and a few vets, no matter from what league.
Can`t agree more though.
Malkin, grandpa Datsyuk, noob Ovechkin, Kovalchoke, Radulov...
Were able to score 1 singe goal...

Just pathetic.

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02-19-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
I think it is time for a change. The 90s slump is biting us in the ***. Trying to maneuver around it without getting a slap in the face didn't work.
Somewhat agree on this part

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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
1.Excluding several star players from consideration for the NT until they show they want to work hard every game.
Who do you mean? The only guy that, imho, could work harder was Malkin, as he failed (or didn't want) to adjust to Ovechkin's game, although I'm not completely sure about it. Anyway, star players are also useful to give young guys some experience handover, like Fedorov did back in 2008.

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2.Give a guy like Bragin a chance to work with a NT basically built around his U20 team.
I would really prefer Znarok, as he sure can bring some discipline (although Bragin could be a good assistant, imho), besides, not much of that U20 team are playing on a good level: Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Orlov, Panarin and Zaitsev.

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3.Give KHLers more credit.(Not Mozyakin!) Young guys like Malykhin need to be on team more than some superstars from the NHL who obviously don't care much about a lost game for their country.
Again some misterious superstars (we basically have only 3 NHL superstars btw) that don't care I agree with the KHL part - young KHL-ers is our unused reserve that can add fresh blood to the NT, also there are guys like Kucherov, Marchenko and Zadorov on the other side of the pond.

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4.Don't whine about lost EHT games, WCs, but really rebuild and wait and endure.
EHT - agree, but for WC - i think that there should still be a goal to get at least a medal, so young guys could get some winning experience, not just some training.

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5.Go into next Olympics with a young team of hungry individuals and a few vets, no matter from what league.
Sorry, but wasn't it the same this time and also in Vancouver?


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02-19-2014, 04:35 PM
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Semin played his last OG i am pretty sure about it. Noob even he strugles in NHL let be olympics.

Ovechkin its really strange, odd hockey player the performance scale/difference between NHL and NT is monstrous. 2006, 2010 and now he showed nothing.

Radulov should be banned from NT even he got his 2 lucky goals somehow hes penalty maker. See match agains USA...

Popov, Anisimov, Tereschenko waste of roster place.

Really give finally a chance to young players !!


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02-19-2014, 05:07 PM
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It is an overreaction.

The game against USA could have gone both ways, and Russia outshot Finland in this one.

Russia's big problem isn't the play of the top players, but bad defensemen, lack of hard-working/defensively responsible forwards, questionnable coaching, and even a ****** president who wouldn't keep his mouth shut.

Don't under-estimate the effect of the pressure these guys had on their shoulders. And bad pressure. Russia "had" to win according to Putin (even though on paper they were the 4th best team imo).

Ovechkin has more shots than anyone in the tourney and wasn't on the ice for a single goal against since the start, but the coach blames him for the loss....

Btw I think Ovechkin's skillset is a better fit for the North American ice and style of play.

But again, Russia's defense suck. And that's a MAJOR problem. Also you don't have any two-way, hard working, character players like USA-Canada-Sweden-Finland has. Guys like Backes, Kesler and Brown for the US.


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02-19-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
It is an overreaction.

The game against USA could have gone both ways, and Russia outshot Finland.

Russia's big problem isn't the play of the top players, but bad defensemen, lack of hard-working/defensively responsible forwards, questionnable coaching, and even a ****** president who wouldn't keep his mouth shut.

Don't under-estimate the effect of the pressure these guys had on their shoulders. And bad pressure. Russia "had" to win according to Putin (even though on paper they were the 4th best team imo).

Ovechkin has more shots than anyone in the tourney and wasn't on the ice for a single goal against since the start, but the coach blames him for the loss.

(Btw I think Ovechkin's skillset is a better fit for the North American ice and style of play.)
Nope its not overreaction at all.
How answer you the fails in 2013 and 2010 olympics ?
1 goal against France, 8 goals in own net with USA ? Ovechkin played exactly what in 2010 Vancouver - nothing.

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02-19-2014, 06:14 PM
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I've never really understood the concept of "waiting for an NHL star to drop out of the Stanley Cup playoffs". Last year, when Kuznetsov had to spend days in Helsinki "just in case no decent NHLers come over", it hit a new low. What a way to disrespect the best of your youth and your domestic leauge.

The whole attitude towards the WCs must be re-evaluated asap. I'd honestly have much more interest for that tourney if it was more about Kuznetsovs, Burmistrovs, Panarins and Vasilevskys than "dead" Ovechkins and "essential" Nikulins. Alas, it's not going to change as long as the Soviet guard is still in charge.

Your vintage "greedy unpatriotic NHLers" bashing is cute. I see what you did there.

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02-19-2014, 06:20 PM
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Atas2000
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I think the idea that they don't care is overblown. For years it was always "Russians don't care about the Stanley Cup, all they care about is gold medals"

now you lose and its "Russians don't care about gold medals, all they care about is the NHL"
I'm not saying all of them dont care. Some of them obviously don't care enough. Some of them probably don't even realize it themselves, because they are all eased up into their superstar multi-million contract comfort zone. They say they care, they even think they care, but in the end after a second in a row early exit they will dash off to their beautiful homes and quickly forget "that game".

I think we need less touted or skilled players to step in who would realize what they are playing for. And I think we need to punish them superstars(not all of them) in a way they will get to feel. That's the main problem with those guys. There is nothing really hurting them if they lose. Maybe if the whole fan community would show them some indifference they would remembersome important things.


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02-19-2014, 06:37 PM
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Your vintage "greedy unpatriotic NHLers" bashing is cute. I see what you did there.
This is not at all the point. I don't care how much money they make. It's not even their fault completely. The coaching staff invited those players. Btw what I don't get, it's the same coaching staff that created the Popov-Malkin-Perezhogin line nobody expected to see and it worked. And the same ppl blow it up to go back to the most weird concept of putting together players best on paper.

Again, I'm not one of those ppl. I don't blame NHLers. I blame certain players. It just happens that only a few KHLers were on the team and they all gave it their proper effort(Kovalchuk btw played through an injury). From the NHL Datsyuk or Kulyomin you can't accuse of anything. They are some NHLers with big contracts too.

All I want to say we need a fresh start. And that means some established ppl will have to go, no matter what their status is.

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02-19-2014, 06:56 PM
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This is not at all the point. I don't care how much money they make. It's not even their fault completely. The coaching staff invited those players. Btw what I don't get, it's the same coaching staff that created the Popov-Malkin-Perezhogin line nobody expected to see and it worked. And the same ppl blow it up to go back to the most weird concept of putting together players best on paper.
In like one decisive game against Sweden? The rest of that championship was played on the easy mode. It means nothing.

The biggest problem of the coaching staff in Sochi was that they couldn't utilize some of the best players in the world. And I assume they weren't competent enough for that. The Team Russia must revolve around Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk with all their pros and cons, there's no other way, those players embody Russian hockey. Everyone had fingers crossed for that Team Russia, not the Team "That Worked in Kazan".

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02-19-2014, 07:04 PM
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Who do you mean? The only guy that, imho, could work harder was Malkin, as he failed (or didn't want) to adjust to Ovechkin's game, although I'm not completely sure about it. Anyway, star players are also useful to give young guys some experience handover, like Fedorov did back in 2008.
One Datsyuk is enough of a teacher. Ovechkin, Malkin, Syomin all haven't nearly played as they could have. Voynov(some called him "our best D-man" right here on HF) looked like he will need 3 years to adjust just like in LA. Yemelin was mostly invisible.

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I would really prefer Znarok, as he sure can bring some discipline (although Bragin could be a good assistant, imho), besides, not much of that U20 team are playing on a good level: Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Orlov, Panarin and Zaitsev.
Znarok is too complicated of a figure. He can't work with strong assistants. God knows if he can manage a star ladden team. Too many questions.

As for Bragin, you forget he coached 2 U20 teams. They would easily make a good core. Especially in a year or two. Add some guys like Malykhin, Nichushkin, Zadorov and vets like Datsyuk and it should work better than the MVP-Richard-Conn Smythe line.

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EHT - agree, but for WC - i think that there should still be a goal to get at least a medal, so young guys could get some winning experience, not just some training.
What I'm saying let's have a rebuild time. A year or two for blowing up the concept and starting anew. I'm not saying we shouldn't ever care about the WC. Let's have some WC without NHLers at all., but with a Vasilevsky in net.

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Sorry, but wasn't it the same this time and also in Vancouver?
The key word here is hungry. In Vancouver they were just overconfident bunch of young stars who thought they are good enough to win it easily. This time they were older, established. But they obviously haven't learned the lesson. If you want to win you have to play like there is no tomorrow.

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02-19-2014, 07:17 PM
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In like one decisive game against Sweden? The rest of that championship was played on the easy mode. It means nothing.
Malkin played the whole tounament on that line and became the tournament top scorer with some ridic amount of points. That's no easy mode. Of course Malkin stood out and Popov and Perezhogin were his sidekicks, but that was the whole concept. Letting Malkin be the superstar on his own line.

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The biggest problem of the coaching staff in Sochi was that they couldn't utilize some of the best players in the world. And I assume they weren't competent enough for that. The Team Russia must revolve around Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk with all their pros and cons, there's no other way, those players embody Russian hockey. Everyone had fingers crossed for that Team Russia, not the Team "That Worked in Kazan".
#buzzer Wrong! Bills's NT had no similarities with AkBars. And as mentioned above Bill did use the superstars properly, but for some reason switched back basically to Bykov's concept. I will probably never know or understand why.

The Kovalchuk -Datsyuk - Radulov line worked a year ago, alright. And Bill didn't want to break it up, even if Kovalchuk is having a bad, injury ridden season which leaves the line without the sniper it needs. Ovechkin needs a passing first center like Datsyuk. And bill had then on a line, but he doesn't even consider it for the olympics for some reason.

It looks to me like Bill was going in the right direction and then he stopped and blew everything up to have pretty un-AkBars-like lineup in the tournament that matters. Again, I have no idea why.

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02-19-2014, 07:37 PM
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Medvedev and Tereschnko were deadweight, I argued this before the tournament and I was practically shot for saying it. Too much Kazan bias. Also it is the coaches fault because he never found chemistry in his guys. Everyone was on their own page and trying to carry the game as individuals. What made the Soviets so good was how they were able to play a complete team game, outsmarting the opponent with passes and chemistry -Russia needs to get back to that. No more taking turns trying to go around the world with the puck.

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02-19-2014, 11:43 PM
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I agree, particularly in light of reports that suggest that the NHL has already decided to drop out of the Olympic Games. That provides a perfect opportunity to start over and develop a new kind of team suitable for post-NHL action. They could go back to the national team concept, or create an all-star team from KHL ranks. Either way, blow the old house up and build a new one!
Nope, still a rumor (and from Dreger who isn't the most reliable). Kalevo Kummola thinks it 70% certain NHL will go to 2018 as well, players want to go, owners are 50-50 at the moment.

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02-19-2014, 11:48 PM
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In my opinion Ovechkin's been grossly misused in the national team. In the NHL he's back to playing at his natural wing (which is right), but at Olympics he was on the left wing. He's paired with players he doesn't have chemistry or team plays a tactic he isn't comfortable playing in (defensive). One could also ask are there any playmaking centers for him to play with on the national team?

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02-20-2014, 03:27 AM
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This is not at all the point. I don't care how much money they make. It's not even their fault completely. The coaching staff invited those players. Btw what I don't get, it's the same coaching staff that created the Popov-Malkin-Perezhogin line nobody expected to see and it worked. And the same ppl blow it up to go back to the most weird concept of putting together players best on paper.
The wrong concept imho was not the putting all stars on one line, but Bill's 'system': 2 lines attacking, 2 lines defending, which resulted in Ovi+Malkin line and also Semin/Tarasenko on defensive lines. If we would played 3+1 instead of this 2+2 line system, we would have much more flexibility.

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Ovechkin, Malkin, Syomin all haven't nearly played as they could have. Voynov(some called him "our best D-man" right here on HF) looked like he will need 3 years to adjust just like in LA. Yemelin was mostly invisible.
Ovi, Malkin, Semin fought to the end actually, but what could Ovi do if he is set to play with Malkin, who is just another type of player (from the WC-2011 we can remember that Ovi is basically useless if there is no one to pass the puck to him) and there are no tries to separate them? The same is with Malkin - he needs another type of winger, we all remember on what type of lines he shows his best, also almost no PP time for him is a joke. Semin - on a line with Kulemin and Anisimov, who were zeros on offensive end, he was still able to generate some good scoring chances, won a lot of board battles and earned some powerplays.

About Voynov being the best defender at some point - he was actualy, and this is horrible Yemelin should have been more invisible as a stay at home defender actually, and still, compared to Belov, Nikitin, Nikulin, Tyutin and Medvedev (what the **** was he doing on the PP unit, by the way?) he wasn't so bad.

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02-20-2014, 06:09 AM
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So according to sports express we'll go from Bill to Znaroks. I'd say from bad to worse

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02-20-2014, 07:29 AM
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My drastic measure will be to stop watching hockey and concentrate on volley.

Will still follow, but won't give a single bit of emotional damn.

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02-20-2014, 07:43 AM
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I can't remember which thread it was anymore but someone commented that players wanted more say in decision making and that would have been even worse. Ironically, that's exactly how Erkka Westerlund has operated with Finland both in Turin and in this tournament.

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02-20-2014, 08:09 AM
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So according to sports express we'll go from Bill to Znaroks. I'd say from bad to worse
Well, he is probably the only Russian coach that has experience of playing against Russian NT, so it might work but if serious, if we expect somebody new as the coach (I mean, not the return of the Bykarkin), then only Znarok and maybe Bragin are left.

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I can't remember which thread it was anymore but someone commented that players wanted more say in decision making and that would have been even worse. Ironically, that's exactly how Erkka Westerlund has operated with Finland both in Turin and in this tournament.
I remember the rumour that Malkin had some influence on Bill during WC2012, but I guess not this time.

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02-20-2014, 08:33 AM
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Love how none of the points are anything like "lets invest into junior development" or "get a decent development league" or "lets finally start coaching our Ds to move the puck and not just stand around". But nah, let's just blame few guys because essentially everything is fine.

Laughable reaction.

No matter how many wake-up calls Russians get, despite the fact that they have zero defensemen who would make even a second Canadian NT and that their starter never had a goalie coach until he went on to play in the NHL they still come up with some phony measures to magically improve things like "hey, let's get a bunch of kids out there instead of the greatest players in the world!".

Load of BS.

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02-20-2014, 09:47 AM
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No matter how many wake-up calls Russians get, despite the fact that they have zero defensemen who would make even a second Canadian NT and that their starter never had a goalie coach until he went on to play in the NHL they still come up with some phony measures to magically improve things like "hey, let's get a bunch of kids out there instead of the greatest players in the world!".
Finland has no defensemen for the Canada B roster either, yet it hasn't missed a single semifinal in the course of the last decade.

Varlamov had Jussi Parkkila as his coach back in the Loko days.

A bunch of "lucky a~~" kids may be by far more pleasant to root for than the best players in the world playing 90s hockey.

Certain people deserve the blame for the current state of Russian hockey. The frustrating part is that they don't actually get it, they feel perfectly secure at their positions.

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02-20-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
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Well, he is probably the only Russian coach that has experience of playing against Russian NT, so it might work but if serious, if we expect somebody new as the coach (I mean, not the return of the Bykarkin), then only Znarok and maybe Bragin are left.
Bilyaletdinov is a great coach. But he's a клубовый coach, not a national team coach. Znarok is imho pretty much the same. I think that he could be even worse than Bill because he will once again force our players to the stuff we did in the last four years. It doesn't work with Team Russia. It can work with Ak Bars Kazan, with Dynamo Moscow, but it doesn't work with Team Russia not at U-20, nor at senior level.

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