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Mason Raymond

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Old
02-16-2014, 03:16 PM
  #26
iFishyHD
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Penguins say 3 and a late conditional pick 5+ if Raymond (if we win the cup). He would help us get some depth scoring with Sutter. Maybe switch him a Jokinen if he goes dry again.

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02-16-2014, 03:21 PM
  #27
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I would say you could get a fourth round pick.

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Old
02-16-2014, 03:24 PM
  #28
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Toronto is a playoff bound team...not rebuilding. Raymond is an important part of our depth scoring, as the leafs depth falls pretty much off a cliff after him.

He doesn't make a big salary (so won't be used as a piece necessary to bring in another deadline acquisition), so realistically, he's not getting traded.

To the Leafs fans in this thread that suggest we should trade Raymond, get your heads out of the gutter. The leafs are no longer operating with a losing mentality.

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Old
02-16-2014, 04:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Toronto is a playoff bound team...not rebuilding. Raymond is an important part of our depth scoring, as the leafs depth falls pretty much off a cliff after him.

He doesn't make a big salary (so won't be used as a piece necessary to bring in another deadline acquisition), so realistically, he's not getting traded.

To the Leafs fans in this thread that suggest we should trade Raymond, get your heads out of the gutter. The leafs are no longer operating with a losing mentality.
Though it doesn't mean we can't get better. Like peen said (who I'm pretty sure is a Canucks fan), he doesn't perform well in the playoffs, he's a possession killer, etc. He's got some serious value to him, and we have players to replace him. If I got a 2nd or a 3rd round pick for Raymond, I wouldn't hesitate taking it, and then taking my chances with Abbott, D'Amigo, Kozun or Smith replacing him on the 3rd line. One of them will turn out. I watched Kozun and D'Amigo yesterday, and they were great players against solid competition from Farjestad. D'Amigo has a lot of points in the AHL because Spott finally realized that he can be used for offensive purposes on top of just defense. The same will probably go for the NHL. 2 points on the bottom line in 19 games isn't that bad, especially for your first stint.

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Old
02-16-2014, 04:36 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SenatorFrank View Post
He might fetch a third
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Originally Posted by Golden_Jet View Post
I would say you could get a fourth round pick.
Ummm ....when was the last time a player on pace for 20 goals and 45-50 points fetched anything less than a 2nd round pick?

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Old
02-16-2014, 04:49 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SeaOfBlue View Post
Though it doesn't mean we can't get better. Like peen said (who I'm pretty sure is a Canucks fan), he doesn't perform well in the playoffs, he's a possession killer, etc. He's got some serious value to him, and we have players to replace him. If I got a 2nd or a 3rd round pick for Raymond, I wouldn't hesitate taking it, and then taking my chances with Abbott, D'Amigo, Kozun or Smith replacing him on the 3rd line. One of them will turn out. I watched Kozun and D'Amigo yesterday, and they were great players against solid competition from Farjestad. D'Amigo has a lot of points in the AHL because Spott finally realized that he can be used for offensive purposes on top of just defense. The same will probably go for the NHL. 2 points on the bottom line in 19 games isn't that bad, especially for your first stint.
Honestly, I'll take the professional coach's opinion over a poster on HFboards with a loser mentality any day of the week.

Mason Raymond plays on our team when we have a healthy lineup. Spencer Abbott, Jerry D'Amigo, Brandon Kozun, and Trevor Smith do not. These guys are all fodder for when a team gets really desparate for bodies, as we've seen by when they do play.

The Leafs are not downgrading their roster at this point in time, and they're certainly not giving up a proven 20 goal scorer (who's on his way to repeating that feat) so that they can play some crap from the AHL who's shown absolutely no reason why they should stay during their NHL stints.

You need to get over your obsession with the garbage on the Marllies. There's a very good reason that they're not in the NHL, it's because they don't bring much to the table. If they did, you wouldn't see Carter Ashton taking a regular shift, and you would see these guys force their way up in the lineup.

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Old
02-16-2014, 05:08 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by crazyaces View Post
Ummm ....when was the last time a player on pace for 20 goals and 45-50 points fetched anything less than a 2nd round pick?
I think if we threw in Ashton we can also get a better prospect who isn't entirely proven yet.

I suggested this:


Maxim Kitsyn (~5th round pick, he's not proven like Ashton, ~85 points)
Linden Vey (~2nd/3rd round pick, ~170 points)
2nd round pick 2014 (mid-late 2nd round pick ~180 points)


Mason Raymond (~mid 2nd round pick ~190-195 points)
Carter Ashton (~3rd round pick ~160-165 points)
Viktor Loov (~6th round pick, he's improved a little bit since draft year ~75 points)

~10 point difference in the favour of the Leafs, but nothing really noticeable. Points may be even more in favour of the Leafs, but nothing too ridiculous that would make it unreasonable, probably not even pushing the reasonable overpayment boundary.

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Old
02-16-2014, 05:13 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taras View Post
Mayson Raymond at 50% salary retained.

The team is getting a 20 goal guy at 500k/year.

Would teams like Pittsburg, LA, Chicago, San Jose... Offer their first for a playoff rental? Knowing that he will not necessarily resign with them...???

Btw - not interested in players coming back (leafs don't have cap room). Unless they were previous year picks and still are on the ELC.

Also not interested in quantity, I want to see quality.
A - you spelled his name wrong

B - 50% of pro rated 1 million dollars is not appealing

C - A non playoff performer in the past

D - He is on a playoff team

Since he can't be replaced internally and will score 20 goals, he is the poster boy of losing him for nothing...which is exactly what he would bring back in a trade

Really use your head next time

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Old
02-16-2014, 05:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Honestly, I'll take the professional coach's opinion over a poster on HFboards with a loser mentality any day of the week.

Mason Raymond plays on our team when we have a healthy lineup. Spencer Abbott, Jerry D'Amigo, Brandon Kozun, and Trevor Smith do not. These guys are all fodder for when a team gets really desparate for bodies, as we've seen by when they do play.

The Leafs are not downgrading their roster at this point in time, and they're certainly not giving up a proven 20 goal scorer (who's on his way to repeating that feat) so that they can play some crap from the AHL who's shown absolutely no reason why they should stay during their NHL stints.

You need to get over your obsession with the garbage on the Marllies. There's a very good reason that they're not in the NHL, it's because they don't bring much to the table. If they did, you wouldn't see Carter Ashton taking a regular shift, and you would see these guys force their way up in the lineup.
Yeah if they were garbage, the Marlies would be garbage right? Smith has 0.36 PPG despite being a two-way player and playing ~7 minutes less than Raymond, who is a pure sniper. Also, no team will win if all you value a team by is points. Why would we have Kulemin or McClement or Bodie or even Bozak or Bolland or Clarkson for the matter? There's not point of Gleason either I guess, because he has like 3 points this season, or Gunnarsson who has like 4. Our team must be terrible right? This is the reason why are team is ranked in the bottom5 in terms of defense by most teams and in terms of GA per game.

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Old
02-16-2014, 05:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by SeaOfBlue View Post
Yeah if they were garbage, the Marlies would be garbage right? Smith has 0.36 PPG despite being a two-way player and playing ~7 minutes less than Raymond, who is a pure sniper. Also, no team will win if all you value a team by is points. Why would we have Kulemin or McClement or Bodie or even Bozak or Bolland or Clarkson for the matter? There's not point of Gleason either I guess, because he has like 3 points this season, or Gunnarsson who has like 4. Our team must be terrible right? This is the reason why are team is ranked in the bottom5 in terms of defense by most teams and in terms of GA per game.
No. NHL garbage succeeds in the AHL all the time.

It's not a matter of valuing by points or defensive contribution, it's a matter of realizing that these scrubs you're talking about aren't better defensively because because they put up fewer points than Raymond, they're just career AHLers who do not have the skills to contribute at the NHL level.

Putting in trash on our 3rd and 4th lines isn't going to help us win playoff games. It's not going to reduce our shots or goals against, and they're not going to be an offensive threat when the opposition's best turns the puck over. Having that 3rd line score a goal at an opportune time may just be the difference between us winning or losing a playoff series.

Trevor Smith had A COUPLE of good games playing alongside Joffrey Lupul, and that's it. .36 points per game is absolutely nothing to write home about. Mason Raymond's .58 isn't a lot to write home about, but having that threat coming off our 3rd line could be extremely important with how inconsistent our 2nd line is.

Serious quesiton... are you just determed to see the Leafs act like losers, or do you really believe that this team is better without having access to Mason Raymond? Those are the only 2 possibilities why the Leafs would trade Mason Raymond. In the case of a losers mentality, all I can do is to tell you to find a new team to cheer for (perhaps the Oilers?). In the case of the latter, the professionals TOTALLY disagree with you.

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Old
02-16-2014, 06:16 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No. NHL garbage succeeds in the AHL all the time.

It's not a matter of valuing by points or defensive contribution, it's a matter of realizing that these scrubs you're talking about aren't better defensively because because they put up fewer points than Raymond, they're just career AHLers who do not have the skills to contribute at the NHL level.

Putting in trash on our 3rd and 4th lines isn't going to help us win playoff games. It's not going to reduce our shots or goals against, and they're not going to be an offensive threat when the opposition's best turns the puck over. Having that 3rd line score a goal at an opportune time may just be the difference between us winning or losing a playoff series.

Trevor Smith had A COUPLE of good games playing alongside Joffrey Lupul, and that's it. .36 points per game is absolutely nothing to write home about. Mason Raymond's .58 isn't a lot to write home about, but having that threat coming off our 3rd line could be extremely important with how inconsistent our 2nd line is.

Serious quesiton... are you just determed to see the Leafs act like losers, or do you really believe that this team is better without having access to Mason Raymond? Those are the only 2 possibilities why the Leafs would trade Mason Raymond. In the case of a losers mentality, all I can do is to tell you to find a new team to cheer for (perhaps the Oilers?). In the case of the latter, the professionals TOTALLY disagree with you.
A loser's mentality is to build for one year rather than the next 5 or 6. If we can make a move for the future but remain competitive, which is what I'm suggesting, would you? I certainly would, professionals certainly would, you won't, and that's where we are at. Chicago did that, and look where they are now?

Also, I forgot to mention Hartikainen, who currently has 27 points in 43 games in the KHL. I think he can be a good third line winger, and there's a reason why we acquired him. So if I got this deal, I would take it every day of the week:


Maxim Kitsyn
Linden Vey
2nd round pick 2014


Mason Raymond
Carter Ashton
Viktor Loov

Linden Vey can be an NHL player who can replace Raymond if Hartikainen doesn't, Maxim Kitsyn in two years maximum and a 2nd which we don't have for the next 2 years giving up a 4th liner, a third line sniper and a prospect we may not resign but has value. Yeah none of them are much "right now" like you suggest, but next year they can really be something, and can open up opportunities to move other prospects for better player rentals than Raymond if Nonis really needs to.

Unless you think we are going to win the cup this year, which reasonably, we won't (or Raymond won't help much getting there), this deal isn't for a "loser mentality". This is "future mentality". Also, watch Philadelphia over the next few years, they probably won't be doing so well because their system is absolutely terrible. I just don't want to have to deal with another 10 year drought. Right now, if we make the playoffs, which we probably will, and maybe get to the semis, I'm ecstatic. That's not a "loser's mentality" as you suggest, it's a "reasonable mentality".

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Old
02-16-2014, 06:24 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SeaOfBlue View Post
A loser's mentality is to build for the present rather than the future. If we can make a move for the future but remain competitive, would you? I certainly would, and that's where we are at. Chicago did that, and look where they are now?

Also, I forgot to mention Hartikainen. I think he can be a good third line winger. So if I got this deal, I would take it every day of the week:


Maxim Kitsyn
Linden Vey
2nd round pick 2014


Mason Raymond
Carter Ashton
Viktor Loov

Linden Vey can be an NHL player who can replace Raymond if Hartikainen doesn't, Maxim Kitsyn in two years maximum and a 2nd which we don't have for the next 2 years giving up a 4th liner, a third line sniper and a prospect we may not resign but has value. Yeah none of them are much "right now" like you suggest, but next year they can really be something. Unless you think we are going to win the cup this year, which reasonably, we won't (or Raymond won't help much getting there), this deal isn't for a "loser mentality". This is "future mentality". Also, watch Philadelphia over the next few years, they probably won't be doing so well because their system is absolutely terrible. I just don't want to have to deal with another 10 year drought. Right now, if we make the playoffs, which we probably will, and maybe get to the semis, I'm ecstatic. That's not a "loser's mentality" as you suggest, it's a "reasonable mentality".
What the heck are you talking about?

Only a loser admits defeat before it actually happens. Only a loser says, forget this year, there's always next year. If I, as a winning team that the Leafs are today, was given the opportunity to make a trade that hurts my teams chances of winning immediately, I'd tell that person who brought me the opportunity to #### right off.

None of the garbage players you've mentioned have proven ANYWHERE near the ability to score 20 goals at the NHL level.

It's not a matter of winning the cup this year, it's a matter of instilling a culture where anything less is unacceptable -- a culture where the GM does not cut the feet out from under a team right before the stretch drive... he bolsters it, or lets a team that's doing well continue to roll (the most likely scenario considering our cap situation).

Out of curiosity, what is your obsession with garbage players? Not only are the guys you want to put into our lineup are crap, but the guys you want to trade for are most likely career AHLers as well.

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Old
02-16-2014, 06:32 PM
  #38
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A first? What a joke. Raymond was a last minute signing from the UFA scrap heap that anyone could of had,
and all he could get was 1M from the Leafs

Sure he's having a decent year but he turns into Casper in the playoffs

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02-16-2014, 06:35 PM
  #39
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You don't wanna just start removing goals from your team before the playoffs. That's how you end up getting bounced 4-5 games in the 1st round. Either get an upgrade, or leave er be.

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02-16-2014, 06:37 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What the heck are you talking about?

Only a loser admits defeat before it actually happens. Only a loser says, forget this year, there's always next year. If I, as a winning team that the Leafs are today, was given the opportunity to make a trade that hurts my teams chances of winning immediately, I'd tell that person who brought me the opportunity to #### right off.

None of the garbage players you've mentioned have proven ANYWHERE near the ability to score 20 goals at the NHL level.

It's not a matter of winning the cup this year, it's a matter of instilling a culture where anything less is unacceptable -- a culture where the GM does not cut the feet out from under a team right before the stretch drive... he bolsters it, or lets a team that's doing well continue to roll (the most likely scenario considering our cap situation).

Out of curiosity, what is your obsession with garbage players? Not only are the guys you want to put into our lineup are crap, but the guys you want to trade for are most likely career AHLers as well.
What do you think I'm trying to do? Kill our team? A 2nd for Mason Raymond is overpayment for him. There was a reason why he needed a PTO to get a contract, and it wasn't because he was asking for 2.5 million a year. He absolutely sucks in the playoffs, can't play defense, hogs the puck, etc.

What's your obsession with Raymond anyways, you're the only Leafs fans I've heard want to keep him, especially since we acquired Hartikainen. He won't be back next year and won't help us this year, so essentially he's just a luxury we can't have. We have other players who played on the 3rd line in his place and played well. A lot of players. We also have players who are better than Raymond and can acquire as rentals that are cheaper than what we can get for Raymond if need be.

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Old
02-16-2014, 06:39 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CanucksSayEh View Post
You don't wanna just start removing goals from your team before the playoffs. That's how you end up getting bounced 4-5 games in the 1st round. Either get an upgrade, or leave er be.
We have an upgrade, and once again, we have offense from other means. We had plans before bringing in Raymond, and we have plans now.

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02-16-2014, 06:42 PM
  #42
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What do you think I'm trying to do? Kill our team? A 2nd for Mason Raymond is overpayment for him. There was a reason why he needed a PTO to get a contract, and it wasn't because he was asking for 2.5 million a year. He absolutely sucks in the playoffs, can't play defense, hogs the puck, etc.

What's your obsession with Raymond anyways, you're the only Leafs fans I've heard want to keep him, especially since we acquired Hartikainen. He won't be back next year and won't help us this year, so essentially he's just a luxury we can't have. We have other players who played on the 3rd line in his place and played well. A lot of players. We also have players who are better than Raymond and can acquire as rentals that are cheaper than what we can get for Raymond if need be.
No, it seems that you're just trying to satisfy your loser mentality in the smallest way possible, and you're under some delusion that our AHL fodder is somehow better than a proven 20 goal guy in this league.

My obsession is with winning. Raymond contributes to that... there's no reason to consider trading him for assets that don't help us win. Simple as that. Whether he's back next year or not has no bearing on the fact that this year, we need him. Whether he has a future here or not, is something that will be determined in the offseason.

Hartikainen couldn't stick on the worst team in the league.... no reason to believe he's going to come in and be better than Raymond.

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Old
02-16-2014, 06:47 PM
  #43
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No, it seems that you're just trying to satisfy your loser mentality in the smartest way possible.

My obsession is with winning. Raymond contributes to that... there's no reason to consider trading him for assets that don't help us win. Simple as that. Whether he's back next year or not has no bearing on the fact that this year, we need him. Whether he has a future here or not, is something that will be determined in the offseason.

Hartikainen couldn't stick on the worst team in the league.... no reason to believe he's going to come in and be better than Raymond.
Raymond doesn't contribute jack in the playoffs. He's, as Vancouver fans have suggested, "Casper" or non-existent. He gets shut down easily. A team who gets him are probably suckers, or desperately need scoring. Since we don't, we shouldn't be the suckers. You're trying to satisfy you're "Winner Mentality" in the dumbest way possible.

And Hartikainen's production in the AHL and KHL is proof, as well as his limited time in the NHL. He didn't make Edmonton because they're trying to find their identity, and he obviously didn't fit it. He was going to be their number 1 call up, but he decided he wanted to go to Europe instead, where he'd play against hard competition. He's 55th in the league minus ties in terms of points.


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Old
02-16-2014, 06:52 PM
  #44
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Ummm ....when was the last time a player on pace for 20 goals and 45-50 points fetched anything less than a 2nd round pick?
Did some research and you're right. They should be able to get a 2nd, just hope my team's not paying that price.

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02-16-2014, 06:53 PM
  #45
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Raymond doesn't contribute jack in the playoffs. He's, as Vancouver fans have suggested, "Casper" or non-existent. He gets shut down easily. A team who gets him are probably suckers, or desperately need scoring. Since we don't, we shouldn't be the suckers. You're trying to satisfy you're "Winner Mentality" in the dumbest way possible.
What he did or didn't do in Vancouver does not guarantee what he will or won't do in Toronto. Considering he most likely won't be playing on a scoring line in the playoffs, he's not really a player who will get targetted with a shutdown game.

I've got a piece of information for you -- we're a team that needs scoring, because as long as we play the way we do, and have the defence that we have, we're going to have to outscore our problems.

Hey, if we could trade Raymond for a proven playoff performer that's certainly something to consider... but that's not being offered to us.... you're proposing trading him for NOBODY.

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02-16-2014, 07:00 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What he did or didn't do in Vancouver does not guarantee what he will or won't do in Toronto. Considering he most likely won't be playing on a scoring line in the playoffs, he's not really a player who will get targetted with a shutdown game.

I've got a piece of information for you -- we're a team that needs scoring, because as long as we play the way we do, and have the defence that we have, we're going to have to outscore our problems.

Hey, if we could trade Raymond for a proven playoff performer that's certainly something to consider... but that's not being offered to us.... you're proposing trading him for NOBODY.
No I'm considering trading them for more valuable pieces. Also, "outscoring" our problems are foolish. We need another defensive type forward with some offensive abilities, because trying to "outscore" our problems would get us out in about 4 games come playoff time.

For having a "winner's mentality", you are sure not thinking to win games.

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02-16-2014, 07:01 PM
  #47
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I could see him going somewhere like Pittsburgh for a sixth round pick.
HA... He's worth more than a 6th. We'd let him go for free for anything less than a 3rd or 4th.

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02-16-2014, 07:06 PM
  #48
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Maybe a 5th tops. Pitts could use his help on pk and help for the fourth line. Might as well.
Um... Are we talking about the same player, or do you not know who Mason Raymond is? Your PK would become the worst in the league with him there, and he'd be completely useless on the 4th line. We can get more from other teams, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a 2nd or 1st.

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02-16-2014, 07:10 PM
  #49
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No I'm considering trading them for more valuable pieces. Also, "outscoring" our problems are foolish. We need another defensive type forward with some offensive abilities, because trying to "outscore" our problems would get us out in about 4 games come playoff time.

For having a "winner's mentality", you are sure not thinking to win games.
After the trade deadline, an asset's value is determined by what they bring to the ice night in and night out. The assets you're proposing trading for bring ZERO value.

Outscoring our problems is reality -- in case you've missed the entire Leafs season. The team isn't going to overhaul the way they play with 20 games remaining, and a defenceman isn't likely to be available to us.... which brings us back to the original point -- bringing up our AHL fodder onto the 3rd line isn't going to solve our shot differential issues, having somebody on the 3rd line who can score may just allow us to be successful outscoring those issues. Having Raymond on it isn't going to inhibit that line's ability to be the shutdown unit.

Fixing the defensive issues of this team is something that will ahve to wait until the offseason.

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02-16-2014, 07:11 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaOfBlue View Post
Um... Are we talking about the same player, or do you not know who Mason Raymond is? Your PK would become the worst in the league with him there, and he'd be completely useless on the 4th line. We can get more from other teams, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a 2nd or 1st.
Hes a canucks fan, they are all insanely Anti- Raymond for no reason whatsoever.

Its like us being pissed and hating on Alex Steen because he found success on another team. It makes no sense other than the obvious, mindless dislike for all things leafs from Vancouver fans.

Namikaze Minato is offline   Reply With Quote
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