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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Olympic Hockey Refereeing: Part II (mod warning post #190)

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Old
03-04-2014, 10:36 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by matsqq View Post
If KHL was the greatest league in the world would canadians then accept that 4 russians would be refs in a final between Russia and Canada.
I say definitely NOT.
You are hypocrites if you say yes to that question.

It's easy to talk trash of us europeans because we don't have 100% confidence in canadian refs but reverse this and you would scream out loud.

A hockey game contains thousands of situations and it's nearly impossible after a game to say that refs did a objective job.
it can take just one or two penalties at critical points if needed.
Like when Sweden played Finland in the semifinal and got 3 on 5 for nearly 2 minutes because Kronwall intererfered Selšnne.
Do I think Canada would have gotten that penalty in that spot with 4 canadian refs.
No, I certainly don't. That was a tough penalty to take. Looked like a dive.

Also I would rather have a russian or finnish referee when Sweden plays Canada than 4 canadians even if they have 90% of the skill that the canadian refs have.

All you do is ridicule and trash talk, not for one second do you think about how other countries feel about this.
Why not use some american NHL refs, or KHL refs. I really hope that if they start a World Cup that they have neutral refs and not canadian refs.

The argument that NHL refs are the best, can easily be countered by taking the second best refs that are neutral.
Just like there are hockey players good enough to compete there are also refs from KHL and SHL that are close enough that it would work just fine.
The anti-Canadian bias in euro hockey circles is too strong. Officials are not immune to this. the KHL is too politicized and the levels of professionalism demanded of an NHL official is not demanded of a Russian-born KHL official.

A Canadian-born NHL official who favored Canada in a gold medal match would have his career damaged or destroyed.

A euro official who favored Canada's European opponent in a gold medal match would have his resume enhanced in the eyes of the IIHF and would probably end up as head of officials for the federation.

The ghost of Viktor Dombrowski haunts Russian and European officiating to this very day.

I'll take an NHL referee because they are held accountable by New York for their professional conduct on the ice.

The same level of accountability and professionalism does not exist across the pond.

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03-04-2014, 11:54 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
What problem? Are the players against it? Has there been examples of bias? I would be shocked if an NHL ref put his professional reputation at stake to help his home country.

Seems like this a non-issue.
You still don't see the problem after this many posts? Then I can't help you... Isn't it enough that so many people actually see this as a problem?

There are studies done on home-biased refereeing in football. Hockey is no different, and NHL referees are human as well (believe or not) no more professional than european football referees.

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03-05-2014, 02:44 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by modofan View Post
You still don't see the problem after this many posts? Then I can't help you... Isn't it enough that so many people actually see this as a problem?

There are studies done on home-biased refereeing in football. Hockey is no different, and NHL referees are human as well (believe or not) no more professional than european football referees.
If by 'many people' you mean posters on here, then no. Show me many hockey people taking issue with it.

You may want to chalk this up to the different refereeing standards between IIHF/Europe and the NHL/NA. Aside from the experience factor, nobody wants to see a game decided by ticky-tack calls because one team or both are not used to IIHF refereeing. The reality is that the top teams are made up primarily of NHL players so it makes sense to have NHL refs do the more important games.

It's been at least 4 Olympics, with Canada being in the final 3 times, and no indication that it's been an issue. I guess hockey is better FIFA where I'm sure some home refs would literally be in danger based on how they called a game.

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03-05-2014, 03:05 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
If by 'many people' you mean posters on here, then no. Show me many hockey people taking issue with it.

You may want to chalk this up to the different refereeing standards between IIHF/Europe and the NHL/NA. Aside from the experience factor, nobody wants to see a game decided by ticky-tack calls because one team or both are not used to IIHF refereeing. The reality is that the top teams are made up primarily of NHL players so it makes sense to have NHL refs do the more important games.

It's been at least 4 Olympics, with Canada being in the final 3 times, and no indication that it's been an issue. I guess hockey is better FIFA where I'm sure some home refs would literally be in danger based on how they called a game.
Yeah, sure. The real problem is that hockey is a very very small a sport compared to football...

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03-05-2014, 03:26 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by modofan View Post
Yeah, sure. The real problem is that hockey is a very very small a sport compared to football...
It's more about dynamics unique to hockey than anything to do with size, IMO. I doubt that since the situation will not potentially happen for another 4 years, if at all, anything will be done about developing Euro-based refs in the NHL.

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03-05-2014, 07:19 AM
  #406
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Guys, what's the point?


Do you want the best referees or not?

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03-05-2014, 11:12 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by modofan View Post
This is becoming more and more childish... You can "pretty much guarantee" that you know more about the world than me? How is that?

I'm born in the 60th so I'm probably twice your age... Feels like I'm arguing with a 12-year old boy...
Because being married to a Swede and having been to Sweden numerous times I have a pretty good idea of the common stereotypes Swedes have about North Americans which is why you made that ridiculous narrow minded comment in the first place and unless you were born in the 1860's you are more or less the same age as me.

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03-05-2014, 01:15 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Because being married to a Swede and having been to Sweden numerous times I have a pretty good idea of the common stereotypes Swedes have about North Americans which is why you made that ridiculous narrow minded comment in the first place and unless you were born in the 1860's you are more or less the same age as me.
Swedes always make me guffaw. Everyone else is a dishonest broker but them. Canadians always cheat to win. Canadians are bad. Americans aren't quite as bad, but still can be bad (except when they're beating Canadians). Canadian hockey players are violent and uncouth.

It's an excuse to cover up their own insecurities. When Sweden wins a major international event, hockey is a huge international sport and a sporting treasure. When they lose (especially to Canada), then hockey is an international minnow of a sport and most swedes would rather play tennis.

I read all the time on these boards how parochial Canadians are, but I know some people who are worse.

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03-05-2014, 03:43 PM
  #409
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Here is the interesting thing .

HE wasn't making country stereotypes, YOU were.
Please carefully reread what HE said and then what YOU said and you can see it for yourself ...
Being unbiased is not that easy - apparently ...

There was another post up here that said that european referees would get promoted by the IIHF if they were to be biased against canadians.

All country stereotypes here have been from canadians against europeans ... and then you go and argue about being unbiased, how ironic ...

And hockey IS a very small sport compared to football, that's just a fact, just look at the number of countrys and the number of players .

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03-06-2014, 01:21 AM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Because being married to a Swede and having been to Sweden numerous times I have a pretty good idea of the common stereotypes Swedes have about North Americans which is why you made that ridiculous narrow minded comment in the first place and unless you were born in the 1860's you are more or less the same age as me.
So your logic is that you no more about the world then me because you are married to a Swede...?

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03-06-2014, 01:32 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by modofan View Post
So your logic is that you no more about the world then me because you are married to a Swede...?
Funny, I understood him as saying that he was aware of the common stereotypes, saw his explanation as to how/why, and neither seems to have anything to do with you.

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03-09-2014, 03:23 PM
  #412
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Let's face it - you can't blame Canadians for wanting Canadian citizens refereeing championship games in which Canada is involved. It can either mean a huge advantage and/or the actual margin of victory to have your countryman working the game. Having Canadians and Americans referee the games meant the actual margin of victory in the '84, '87, and '91 Canada Cups. The Canadian advantage was somewhat mitigated for the United States in the two World Cups because Canadians aren't the only NHL refs - there are a few Americans too.

Of course it was a huge advantage, if not the margin of victory, to have Canadian and a few American refs working the Olympic Games. Its not even so much making blatantly pro homer calls as it is ignoring infractions that would have put your homeland at a disadvantage. Are you really going to make a call that could cost Canada a championship, and then try to live peacefully there with your family? I don't think so.

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03-09-2014, 03:54 PM
  #413
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Keep fighting the fight bro!

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03-09-2014, 05:15 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
Calling people hypocrites for a hypothetical situation - that will likely never arise. That's some interesting reasoning, son.
LOL

mastaq was just telling us facts. deal with it

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03-09-2014, 05:30 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsqq View Post
Here is the interesting thing .

HE wasn't making country stereotypes, YOU were.
Please carefully reread what HE said and then what YOU said and you can see it for yourself ...
Being unbiased is not that easy - apparently ...

There was another post up here that said that european referees would get promoted by the IIHF if they were to be biased against canadians.

All country stereotypes here have been from canadians against europeans ... and then you go and argue about being unbiased, how ironic ...

And hockey IS a very small sport compared to football, that's just a fact, just look at the number of countrys and the number of players .
True, hockey is just a meh in Europe. It doenst get better by this ref-story i OG i guess.

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03-09-2014, 05:50 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Let's face it - you can't blame Canadians for wanting Canadian citizens refereeing championship games in which Canada is involved. It can either mean a huge advantage and/or the actual margin of victory to have your countryman working the game. Having Canadians and Americans referee the games meant the actual margin of victory in the '84, '87, and '91 Canada Cups. The Canadian advantage was somewhat mitigated for the United States in the two World Cups because Canadians aren't the only NHL refs - there are a few Americans too.

Of course it was a huge advantage, if not the margin of victory, to have Canadian and a few American refs working the Olympic Games. Its not even so much making blatantly pro homer calls as it is ignoring infractions that would have put your homeland at a disadvantage. Are you really going to make a call that could cost Canada a championship, and then try to live peacefully there with your family? I don't think so.
1981!!

1981!!

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03-09-2014, 06:31 PM
  #417
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We all thought that Canada couldn't win outside of North America, but the reality is that Canada can't win without Canadian referees. How have so many been so blind for so long?

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03-10-2014, 08:55 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Let's face it - you can't blame Canadians for wanting Canadian citizens refereeing championship games in which Canada is involved. It can either mean a huge advantage and/or the actual margin of victory to have your countryman working the game. Having Canadians and Americans referee the games meant the actual margin of victory in the '84, '87, and '91 Canada Cups. The Canadian advantage was somewhat mitigated for the United States in the two World Cups because Canadians aren't the only NHL refs - there are a few Americans too.

Of course it was a huge advantage, if not the margin of victory, to have Canadian and a few American refs working the Olympic Games. Its not even so much making blatantly pro homer calls as it is ignoring infractions that would have put your homeland at a disadvantage. Are you really going to make a call that could cost Canada a championship, and then try to live peacefully there with your family? I don't think so.
D you honestly believe this crap?

My God you're a sore loser.


Watch the games again, Canada was easily the best team and your team was just awful as usual.

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03-11-2014, 10:40 AM
  #419
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
1981!!

1981!!
I have no idea what you mean by 1981 1981 If you are referring to the fact that the Soviets won the 1981 Canada Cup, the fact is that a Swedish referee, Dag Olsson, worked that game. That was the last time that a European ref was allowed to work a Canada Cup/World Cup medal round game. While there was nothing wrong with the way that Olsson called the game, I always personally suspected that the outcome is the main reason why European refs were barred from working the important games in those tournaments. By the same token, I don't think the NHL should be allowed to dictate who referees Olympic hockey games. It adversely affects the principle of fair competition.

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03-11-2014, 11:48 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I don't think the NHL should be allowed to dictate who referees Olympic hockey games. It adversely affects the principle of fair competition.
I think someone needs to find a better trained, more experienced, and higher qualified source of referees, then. Otherwise the principle of quality and consistent officiating is adversely affected.

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03-11-2014, 01:32 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
By the same token, I don't think the NHL should be allowed to dictate who referees Olympic hockey games. It adversely affects the principle of fair competition.
Name some of these adverse affects (besides your obvious bitterness). Name specific examples in the NHL-era Olympics games where reffing has affected the outcome.

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03-11-2014, 04:29 PM
  #422
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You know Canadian hockey is doing well when you get threads like these.

I bet these so-called neutral referees hate Canada as much as some posters here. No such thing as unbiased reffing. Someone will find a way to complain. Can't please everyone.

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03-11-2014, 05:10 PM
  #423
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You know Canadian hockey is doing well when you get threads like these.

I bet these so-called neutral referees hate Canada as much as some posters here. No such thing as unbiased reffing. Someone will find a way to complain. Can't please everyone.
Yes, we are pretty far down the list at this point. After Nagano 1998 and subsequent Olympics we heard ad nauseam that Canada cannot win:
  • Gold medal in 50 years - check (2002)
  • On larger than NHL ice - check (2002)
  • With the pressure of being the favorite - check (2002)
  • With the pressure of home ice - check (2010)
  • Outside of North American - check (2014)
  • On "true" international ice dimensions - check (2014)
  • While going undefeated - check (2014)
  • With international refs in Europe on international ice - ???
  • In Asia - ???

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03-11-2014, 07:37 PM
  #424
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Name some of these adverse affects (besides your obvious bitterness). Name specific examples in the NHL-era Olympics games where reffing has affected the outcome.
The number of instances over the course of a game where calls that could have been made but are let go, and instances where calls are made when they could have been let go, are incalculable. I'm not suggesting that any one nationality is more honest or dishonest than another. What I am saying is that there should never be a situation in a championship tournament in any sport where a referee who is working a game is at the same time native to or a citizen of one of the participants. If you watch the World Cup from Brazil this summer, and it is Brazil vs. Spain in the final, there won't be Brazilian or Spanish referees working the game. It would never, and should never, happen!

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03-12-2014, 03:26 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The number of instances over the course of a game where calls that could have been made but are let go, and instances where calls are made when they could have been let go, are incalculable. I'm not suggesting that any one nationality is more honest or dishonest than another. What I am saying is that there should never be a situation in a championship tournament in any sport where a referee who is working a game is at the same time native to or a citizen of one of the participants. If you watch the World Cup from Brazil this summer, and it is Brazil vs. Spain in the final, there won't be Brazilian or Spanish referees working the game. It would never, and should never, happen!
So you have toned it back from "Canada only wins because of refereeing" to a theoretical discussion.

I suggest you retract your previous assertion, read thru the thread to see the responses to this, and write the IIHF with suggestions as to how to increase the level of non-NA refs.

As of now, the use of NHL refs has not been an issue, and replacing them for the sake of optics at the cost of less qualified refereeing apparently is not worth it.

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